Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #2

[beader]

Isn't there some way we can all just agree that the F2 is a sad situation--always has been, probably always will be--and stop trying to place blame?

[mnmhughes]

The whole conversation on that new clip is ridiculous. There is nothing JP could say to change her mind about him? She doesn't even know him? Her sister really screwed up here on national tv. And mom has barely anything to say from what we have seen. I'd be crying if I was Ashley because who wants their family to treat someone they love that way. Want to fast forward through that all scene on Monday night.

I know, I'm baffled why there's "nothing he can do" about this? Huh? :greenman: Also, I'm confused how it's possibly "not personal" and "just being an older, protective sis" when it's okay for Brad (Brad!) or Ben to propose and not JP.

I watched the clip, and while I think it showed exactly how limited and flawed Chrystie was in her thinking about this matter, it did enlighten me as to where her thinking came from. What I saw was her judging JP solely on how she saw Ashley act around him (therefore, there was nothing HE could do or change, it was all about Ashley's attitude), and she found Ash to be too serious, and not the bubbly light hearted sister she knew, and saw her be with Brad, and apparently also with Ben. What she failed to grasp is that the reason Ash's demeanor with JP was serious was because this was the man she expected to marry that she was introducing to her family; it was a serious moment, the only moment that mattered. She could afford to be light hearted with Brad and Ben, she wasn't really invested in either of them, so the opinions of her family were almost of no consequence when it got down to it. IOW, it was easy for Ash to act relaxed and herself with the two guys she had nothing to lose with. With the one guy in whose presence she acted nervous, however, it was because she had everything to lose.

Chrystie, IMO, is too judgmental and opinionated for her own good. Either that, or the producers really asked her to ramp up the drama (they must have been desperate to come up with some obstacle to prevent the last couple of episodes from being too obvious) in return for a featured spot on the ATFR.

[ironcat]

I agree that we shouldn't be judging these people so absolutely based on what little we know so far. That said, the only points that I feel are worth mentioning-

1) Ben should not be criticized for his actions at FRC, nor should he be applauded for them, as if he did a great thing by "getting back" at Ashley for not handling the "dumping" with more finesse. Two wrongs do not make a right, so to speak.

2) I can't help but wonder how much criticism and rehashing of JP's temper issues we would be hearing from some people if the shoe were on the other foot.

3) It is highly likely that producer intervention and manipulation is largely responsible for this mess. Ashley was most likely told that she would be speaking first, Ben knew to wait, and to take her time and gather her thoughts, thus the stunned shock when Ben jumped the gun. OTOH, Ben was probably encouraged by producers to think Ashley was more into him than she was JP (and Ben's state of mind going on the show, being so emotionally closed off, was probably like striking pay dirt for the show psychologists, as far as finding susceptible victims to manipulate and brainwash), and was told that he needed to speak first at FRC, and drop to his knee for the proposal as quickly as possible. Then everybody stood back and waited for TV gold to unfold.

[skitts]

The whole conversation on that new clip is ridiculous. There is nothing JP could say to change her mind about him? She doesn't even know him? Her sister really screwed up here on national tv. And mom has barely anything to say from what we have seen. I'd be crying if I was Ashley because who wants their family to treat someone they love that way. Want to fast forward through that all scene on Monday night.

I know, I'm baffled why there's "nothing he can do" about this? Huh? :greenman: Also, I'm confused how it's possibly "not personal" and "just being an older, protective sis" when it's okay for Brad (Brad!) or Ben to propose and not JP.

I watched the clip, and while I think it showed exactly how limited and flawed Chrystie was in her thinking about this matter, it did enlighten me as to where her thinking came from. What I saw was her judging JP solely on how she saw Ashley act around him (therefore, there was nothing HE could do or change, it was all about Ashley's attitude), and she found Ash to be too serious, and not the bubbly light hearted sister she knew, and saw her be with Brad, and apparently also with Ben. What she failed to grasp is that the reason Ash's demeanor with JP was serious was because this was the man she expected to marry that she was introducing to her family; it was a serious moment, the only moment that mattered. She could afford to be light hearted with Brad and Ben, she wasn't really invested in either of them, so the opinions of her family were almost of no consequence when it got down to it. IOW, it was easy for Ash to act relaxed and herself with the two guys she had nothing to lose with. With the one guy in whose presence she acted nervous, however, it was because she had everything to lose.

Chrystie, IMO, is too judgmental and opinionated for her own good. Either that, or the producers really asked her to ramp up the drama (they must have been desperate to come up with some obstacle to prevent the last couple of episodes from being too obvious) in return for a featured spot on the ATFR.

Exactly!

[Guest]

I agree that Chrystie was way too judgmental, too quickly, but again, isn't speed the nature of "the process"? I wonder, too, if there were anything Ashley might've done to prepare them for the visit of her chosen one? I guess she didn't want to influence them unduly...??

ETA: In what way are comments about what "some" people might've said in any way constructive? If one is still angry about those comments from others not currently part of the discussion, perhaps it's time to "let go"? Or is it a case of rubbing (innocent) noses in JPash's success?? I'm not getting it.

[bluwavz]

Isn't there some way we can all just agree that the F2 is a sad situation--always has been, probably always will be--and stop trying to place blame?

I can agree with that. I do think we can put most of the blame on TPTB, though. I'll bet anything that they probably made Ben feel confident that he was the F1 and made JP doubt himself, especially after Ashley's sister didn't approve of him. They probably also convinced Ashley that there was no way Ben would propose.

[skitts]

I agree that we shouldn't be judging these people so absolutely based on what little we know so far. That said, the only points that I feel are worth mentioning-

1) Ben should not be criticized for his actions at FRC, nor should he be applauded for them, as if he did a great thing by "getting back" at Ashley for not handling the "dumping" with more finesse. Two wrongs do not make a right, so to speak.

2) I can't help but wonder how much criticism and rehashing of JP's temper issues we would be hearing from some people if the shoe were on the other foot.

3) It is highly likely that producer intervention and manipulation is largely responsible for this mess. Ashley was most likely told that she would be speaking first, Ben knew to wait, and to take her time and gather her thoughts, thus the stunned shock when Ben jumped the gun. OTOH, Ben was probably encouraged by producers to think Ashley was more into him than she was JP (and Ben's state of mind going on the show, being so emotionally closed off, was probably like striking pay dirt for the show psychologists, as far as finding susceptible victims to manipulate and brainwash), and was told that he needed to speak first at FRC, and drop to his knee for the proposal as quickly as possible. Then everybody stood back and waited for TV gold to unfold.

Ironcat, I'm riding your train today...you are right on the money!

[sjcaligurl]

Totally agree. I don't understand why people are always hiding in the bushes, ready to attack over nothing! There was a time when proposing was an honor and an act of chivalry regardless of outcome. Now we've turned it into a humiliating task that is only expected if the answer is yes. Then we wonder why guys like David Good and the BB crew exist. They have the same mentality as the women who are on a witch hunt after Ashley because she LET a guy she was going to turn away propose. There is dignity in the proposal - not the response - and until we get that, the warped sense of mancode will exist.

[Guest]

This really seems a throwback in my eyes... i thought we as women had come further than that.

TBH I've actually ALWAYS thought it made more sense for the Bachette to do the proposing. Where is it written any more that the man is the only one who can take the risk? Perhaps that is why I may seem so stubborn about my disappointment w/ ashley. I truly believe it becomes all about "the girl" getting "her" proposal.... The lead has to endure the rollercoaster, but in my eyes has far more power in this situation than her bachelors. Perhaps the rose should precede the ring....?

(But then, of course, if I were the Bette, I'd prolly telll my guy I'd love him to surprise me down the road with his own un-pressured proposal....)

that's just me, I realize.

[sjcaligurl]

When they change the format, the B'ette can propose. No problem with that. Also no problem with the woman speaking first if she is allowed to. Note that in the summary posted here, Ben asked to speak first. Just as some men will always want to pick up the check, some men will always want to propose.

[lithargic]

Is it just me or do all these previews and spoilers seem like they could all be a smokescreen for something else? I have watched every season of this show and they always make the F1 look like F2. Even in the first season I thought for sure that Trista was F1. And when she picked Ryan over Charlie we were all shocked. And when Deanna dumped Jason everyone thought he was F1. And on and on and on. Why are they making it so obvious this season that JP is F1???

[Guest]

Lithargic, welcome!

We have a member who attended ATFR. JP is F1.

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