Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion #2

stuckinsc wrote:How exhausting for both of them.  I know watching Andi question Josh all season exhausted me.  Before the season began I actually wanted her to pick Josh, but after the second episode and the Andi couldn't trust Josh because she had been cheated on crap, I jumped off the train.

I hoped that it would stop once she chose him and it seemed at AFTR it had with them spending all their time together.

But if Andi couldn't let go of the fact that Josh might be attracted to other women that is sad.  I know for me and all marriages of my friends you don't stop being attracted to other people, but you love the one you are with and don't want to act on that attraction.  Trust is so vital to any relationship and if Andi wasn't able to trust in Josh and I am sure it was hurtful for both of them.

That was actually something I liked about Andi with Nick at least at first, he seemed to calm her and she seemed secure when with him.  No, I don't want her back with Nick, but maybe Andi needs a man she thinks she is "hotter" than to be secure?

I also think Andi would have loved to be like Jesse James and Eric Decker and while Josh didn't mind the hanging out sometimes, I think he wanted a more normal life.  

Josh's choice of Advocare may have been the first straw.  She even posted a tweet about the Advofreak coming to bed and snuggling her.  If it was just a little thing and didn't require a lot of work, but if you really want to do MLM well and are committed to it, it takes a lot of time and work at first.  Josh seems like he has never been afraid of hard work.  

I do wonder if Josh felt compelled to make it even more successful because of the fact that Andi had chosen to quit working to pursue whatever it was she wanted.  

In either case, I do think this might be for the best, once the burning hot flame of passion started to burn down it seems like when they had to find the common ground and compromises it got too difficult.

I hope for them to both find the person that it is easier to make those compromises and find a happy common ground with.  Andi should be able to be who she wants to be, be that designer, spoiled stay at home wife, or whatever.  For Josh I hope for him to find someone who is good with his choices and his family.

I agree that Andi’s questioning of Josh was both exhausting and troubling. Initially, and on the surface, the questioning was about whether he would cheat on her (like her last boyfriend) and about whether he was serious enough, but she never seemed to get what she needed as far as assurances… and to me it reflected that something was really misaligned in terms of their connection.

I also agree Andi seemed more secure with Nick. I didn’t think her feeling of security was predicated on her thinking she was ‘hotter’ than Nick, but more a reflection of their mental connection and feeling like he could see all of her. She said on a number of occasions how passionate they were mentally, emotionally and physically. Still, the authenticity and introspection that attracted her to Nick also made her uncomfortable and so she rejected him too.

Andi should be able to have whatever kind of life she wants, but in order to get what she really wants, she needs to know what that is. And the bottom line to me is that Andi was not really ready to commit to anyone or anything because she doesn't really know who she is or what she wants.

SueSt wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:How exhausting for both of them.  I know watching Andi question Josh all season exhausted me.  Before the season began I actually wanted her to pick Josh, but after the second episode and the Andi couldn't trust Josh because she had been cheated on crap, I jumped off the train.

I hoped that it would stop once she chose him and it seemed at AFTR it had with them spending all their time together.

But if Andi couldn't let go of the fact that Josh might be attracted to other women that is sad.  I know for me and all marriages of my friends you don't stop being attracted to other people, but you love the one you are with and don't want to act on that attraction.  Trust is so vital to any relationship and if Andi wasn't able to trust in Josh and I am sure it was hurtful for both of them.

That was actually something I liked about Andi with Nick at least at first, he seemed to calm her and she seemed secure when with him.  No, I don't want her back with Nick, but maybe Andi needs a man she thinks she is "hotter" than to be secure?

I also think Andi would have loved to be like Jesse James and Eric Decker and while Josh didn't mind the hanging out sometimes, I think he wanted a more normal life.  

Josh's choice of Advocare may have been the first straw.  She even posted a tweet about the Advofreak coming to bed and snuggling her.  If it was just a little thing and didn't require a lot of work, but if you really want to do MLM well and are committed to it, it takes a lot of time and work at first.  Josh seems like he has never been afraid of hard work.  

I do wonder if Josh felt compelled to make it even more successful because of the fact that Andi had chosen to quit working to pursue whatever it was she wanted.  

In either case, I do think this might be for the best, once the burning hot flame of passion started to burn down it seems like when they had to find the common ground and compromises it got too difficult.

I hope for them to both find the person that it is easier to make those compromises and find a happy common ground with.  Andi should be able to be who she wants to be, be that designer, spoiled stay at home wife, or whatever.  For Josh I hope for him to find someone who is good with his choices and his family.

I agree that Andi’s questioning of Josh was both exhausting and troubling.  Initially, and on the surface, the questioning was about whether he would cheat on her (like her last boyfriend) and about whether he was serious enough, but she never seemed to get what she needed as far as assurances… and to me it reflected that something was really misaligned in terms of their connection.  

I also agree Andi seemed more secure with Nick.  I didn’t think her feeling of security was predicated on her thinking she was ‘hotter’ than Nick, but more a reflection of their mental connection and feeling like he could see all of her.  She said on a number of occasions how passionate they were mentally, emotionally and physically.  Still, the authenticity and introspection that attracted her to Nick also made her uncomfortable and so she rejected him too.    

Andi should be able to have whatever kind of life she wants, but in order to get what she really wants, she needs to know what that is. And the bottom line to me is that Andi was not really ready to commit to anyone or anything because she doesn't really know who she is or what she wants.

While I do think she and Nick had an incredible "connection" (yuck, I feel the need to take a sip for just using the word), I do think that Andi believed she was "hotter" than Nick. She thought Marcus and Josh were hot. Nick was that surprise to her that she would find him interesting.

I also don't think Andi is ready for a relationship, so for me wanting her to get what she wants at this point, IMO, is a taste of fame and the exciting life I think Andi wants right now. Obviously the home life in Atlanta, which she herself said she didn't want but accepted for Josh, wasn't it. Honestly, I think she needs to pursue her dreams and find out if they can be real or not. She won't be a good match for anyone until she is happy with herself. She is just too high strung for that, again IMO.

SueSt wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:How exhausting for both of them.  I know watching Andi question Josh all season exhausted me.  Before the season began I actually wanted her to pick Josh, but after the second episode and the Andi couldn't trust Josh because she had been cheated on crap, I jumped off the train.

I hoped that it would stop once she chose him and it seemed at AFTR it had with them spending all their time together.

But if Andi couldn't let go of the fact that Josh might be attracted to other women that is sad.  I know for me and all marriages of my friends you don't stop being attracted to other people, but you love the one you are with and don't want to act on that attraction.  Trust is so vital to any relationship and if Andi wasn't able to trust in Josh and I am sure it was hurtful for both of them.

That was actually something I liked about Andi with Nick at least at first, he seemed to calm her and she seemed secure when with him.  No, I don't want her back with Nick, but maybe Andi needs a man she thinks she is "hotter" than to be secure?

I also think Andi would have loved to be like Jesse James and Eric Decker and while Josh didn't mind the hanging out sometimes, I think he wanted a more normal life.  

Josh's choice of Advocare may have been the first straw.  She even posted a tweet about the Advofreak coming to bed and snuggling her.  If it was just a little thing and didn't require a lot of work, but if you really want to do MLM well and are committed to it, it takes a lot of time and work at first.  Josh seems like he has never been afraid of hard work.  

I do wonder if Josh felt compelled to make it even more successful because of the fact that Andi had chosen to quit working to pursue whatever it was she wanted.  

In either case, I do think this might be for the best, once the burning hot flame of passion started to burn down it seems like when they had to find the common ground and compromises it got too difficult.

I hope for them to both find the person that it is easier to make those compromises and find a happy common ground with.  Andi should be able to be who she wants to be, be that designer, spoiled stay at home wife, or whatever.  For Josh I hope for him to find someone who is good with his choices and his family.

I agree that Andi’s questioning of Josh was both exhausting and troubling.  Initially, and on the surface, the questioning was about whether he would cheat on her (like her last boyfriend) and about whether he was serious enough, but she never seemed to get what she needed as far as assurances… and to me it reflected that something was really misaligned in terms of their connection.  

I also agree Andi seemed more secure with Nick.  I didn’t think her feeling of security was predicated on her thinking she was ‘hotter’ than Nick, but more a reflection of their mental connection and feeling like he could see all of her.  She said on a number of occasions how passionate they were mentally, emotionally and physically.  Still, the authenticity and introspection that attracted her to Nick also made her uncomfortable and so she rejected him too.    

Andi should be able to have whatever kind of life she wants, but in order to get what she really wants, she needs to know what that is. And the bottom line to me is that Andi was not really ready to commit to anyone or anything because she doesn't really know who she is or what she wants.

The sooner she recognises this, the better for her IMO.

aviej wrote:

SueSt wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:How exhausting for both of them.  I know watching Andi question Josh all season exhausted me.  Before the season began I actually wanted her to pick Josh, but after the second episode and the Andi couldn't trust Josh because she had been cheated on crap, I jumped off the train.

I hoped that it would stop once she chose him and it seemed at AFTR it had with them spending all their time together.

But if Andi couldn't let go of the fact that Josh might be attracted to other women that is sad.  I know for me and all marriages of my friends you don't stop being attracted to other people, but you love the one you are with and don't want to act on that attraction.  Trust is so vital to any relationship and if Andi wasn't able to trust in Josh and I am sure it was hurtful for both of them.

That was actually something I liked about Andi with Nick at least at first, he seemed to calm her and she seemed secure when with him.  No, I don't want her back with Nick, but maybe Andi needs a man she thinks she is "hotter" than to be secure?

I also think Andi would have loved to be like Jesse James and Eric Decker and while Josh didn't mind the hanging out sometimes, I think he wanted a more normal life.  

Josh's choice of Advocare may have been the first straw.  She even posted a tweet about the Advofreak coming to bed and snuggling her.  If it was just a little thing and didn't require a lot of work, but if you really want to do MLM well and are committed to it, it takes a lot of time and work at first.  Josh seems like he has never been afraid of hard work.  

I do wonder if Josh felt compelled to make it even more successful because of the fact that Andi had chosen to quit working to pursue whatever it was she wanted.  

In either case, I do think this might be for the best, once the burning hot flame of passion started to burn down it seems like when they had to find the common ground and compromises it got too difficult.

I hope for them to both find the person that it is easier to make those compromises and find a happy common ground with.  Andi should be able to be who she wants to be, be that designer, spoiled stay at home wife, or whatever.  For Josh I hope for him to find someone who is good with his choices and his family.

I agree that Andi’s questioning of Josh was both exhausting and troubling.  Initially, and on the surface, the questioning was about whether he would cheat on her (like her last boyfriend) and about whether he was serious enough, but she never seemed to get what she needed as far as assurances… and to me it reflected that something was really misaligned in terms of their connection.  

I also agree Andi seemed more secure with Nick.  I didn’t think her feeling of security was predicated on her thinking she was ‘hotter’ than Nick, but more a reflection of their mental connection and feeling like he could see all of her.  She said on a number of occasions how passionate they were mentally, emotionally and physically.  Still, the authenticity and introspection that attracted her to Nick also made her uncomfortable and so she rejected him too.    

Andi should be able to have whatever kind of life she wants, but in order to get what she really wants, she needs to know what that is. And the bottom line to me is that Andi was not really ready to commit to anyone or anything because she doesn't really know who she is or what she wants.

The sooner she recognises this, the better for her IMO.

But in my opinion, I think it is actually good that she is taking the time to do this. She has to figure it out on her own. It was obvious to most of us that Andi didn't want to be an Atlanta housewife. As much as I don't like her and if she really left guys she was dating to do this show twice, that is horrible, but Andi did try to be the Atlanta housewife. She tried to want to be there and hangout and do all those things everyday. I don't think it made her happy, it seemed like times when she didn't have Josh, Kelly or someone else to help her occupy her time she was not really enjoying it.

Good for her for taking the time to find out what she wants. She is only 27 years old and quite honestly had been on a very direct and focused path on something that I think she unfortunately found out wasn't her dream and what she thought it would be (the law). I am happy for her that this show has given her the resources to figure it out. I actually think pursuing her dreams and figuring out what is good for her is absolutely the best thing for her right now.

If Andi and Josh are meant to be, they will find their way back to each other. But, obvious, IMO, where they are right now wasn't good for them or they would not have broken up. I think they both need time to pursue what is important to them. If after that they decide that their love was the most important of all they will make it back, but if not, they will, I am sure find what it is they need.

To be honest, the one of the reasons it took me so long to get on the Chris and Des train was because I didn't think Des had truly given herself time in her heart to give up on the dream of Brooks. I was truly afraid that after a little while she would discover that while Chris was really great, that her heart wondered too much what might have been. Boy, was I ever wrong about that.

But oddly enough, I think I had that feeling one season too soon. I think Andi really did love Josh and I think she wanted to be happy with their lives and unfortunately she wasn't. Good for her for figuring it out sooner rather than later. Every breakup sucks, but as a divorced woman, I can honestly say, I wish I had had the courage to end my engagement when I had that feeling. Being divorced is 100 times worse than breaking an engagement and I am truly happy for both to not have to go through that.

I actually think that any of these couples marrying in under a year is a really bad idea. They met in the most unnatural of circumstances, they need time to figure out if all those feelings are strong enough to build a solid foundation for the future, because MF and his "fairytale" usually has very little to do with real life. Heck Chris and actually going to Iowa this year has impressed the heck out of me. Chris needed to find a woman who could love his life, for once MF let go of the travel porn to try to do what was best for his lead.

MF and TPTB, IMO never tried that for Andi. I think they were mad at her for not only getting rid of first choice Eric too soon, but then insisting on their choice 1B for herself. They games and manipulation they played on both her and Nick between FRC and AFTR were mean and cruel.

stuckinsc wrote:

 Every breakup sucks, but as a divorced woman, I can honestly say, I wish I had had the courage to end my engagement when I had that feeling. Being divorced is 100 times worse than breaking an engagement and I am truly happy for both to not have to go through that.  

Been there, done that, TA

stuckinsc wrote:

aviej wrote:

SueSt wrote:

I agree that Andi’s questioning of Josh was both exhausting and troubling.  Initially, and on the surface, the questioning was about whether he would cheat on her (like her last boyfriend) and about whether he was serious enough, but she never seemed to get what she needed as far as assurances… and to me it reflected that something was really misaligned in terms of their connection.  

I also agree Andi seemed more secure with Nick.  I didn’t think her feeling of security was predicated on her thinking she was ‘hotter’ than Nick, but more a reflection of their mental connection and feeling like he could see all of her.  She said on a number of occasions how passionate they were mentally, emotionally and physically.  Still, the authenticity and introspection that attracted her to Nick also made her uncomfortable and so she rejected him too.    

Andi should be able to have whatever kind of life she wants, but in order to get what she really wants, she needs to know what that is. And the bottom line to me is that Andi was not really ready to commit to anyone or anything because she doesn't really know who she is or what she wants.

The sooner she recognises this, the better for her IMO.

But in my opinion, I think it is actually good that she is taking the time to do this. She has to figure it out on her own. It was obvious to most of us that Andi didn't want to be an Atlanta housewife.  As much as I don't like her and if she really left guys she was dating to do this show twice, that is horrible, but Andi did try to be the Atlanta housewife.  She tried to want to be there and hangout and do all those things everyday.  I don't think it made her happy, it seemed like times when she didn't have Josh, Kelly or someone else to help her occupy her time she was not really enjoying it.  

Good for her for taking the time to find out what she wants.  She is only 27 years old and quite honestly had been on a very direct and focused path on something that I think she unfortunately found out wasn't her dream and what she thought it would be (the law).  I am happy for her that this show has given her the resources to figure it out.  I actually think pursuing her dreams and figuring out what is good for her is absolutely the best thing for her right now.

If Andi and Josh are meant to be, they will find their way back to each other.  But, obvious, IMO, where they are right now wasn't good for them or they would not have broken up.  I think they both need time to pursue what is important to them.  If after that they decide that their love was the most important of all they will make it back, but if not, they will, I am sure find what it is they need.

To be honest, the one of the reasons it took me so long to get on the Chris and Des train was because I didn't think Des had truly given herself time in her heart to give up on the dream of Brooks.  I was truly afraid that after a little while she would discover that while Chris was really great, that her heart wondered too much what might have been.  Boy, was I ever wrong about that.

But oddly enough, I think I had that feeling one season too soon.  I think Andi really did love Josh and I think she wanted to be happy with their lives and unfortunately she wasn't.  Good for her for figuring it out sooner rather than later.  Every breakup sucks, but as a divorced woman, I can honestly say, I wish I had had the courage to end my engagement when I had that feeling. Being divorced is 100 times worse than breaking an engagement and I am truly happy for both to not have to go through that.  

I actually think that any of these couples marrying in under a year is a really bad idea.  They met in the most unnatural of circumstances, they need time to figure out if all those feelings are strong enough to build a solid foundation for the future, because MF and his "fairytale" usually has very little to do with real life.  Heck Chris and actually going to Iowa this year has impressed the heck out of me.  Chris needed to find a woman who could love his life, for once MF let go of the travel porn to try to do what was best for his lead.

MF and TPTB, IMO never tried that for Andi. I think they were mad at her for not only getting rid of first choice Eric too soon, but then insisting on their choice 1B for herself.  They games and manipulation they played on both her and Nick between FRC and AFTR were mean and cruel.

Experience speaks louder than words.  Thanks for sharing your perspective about breakups, Stuck.

I hope that Andi will take time to figure it all out, because in the absence of knowing what she wants, she projected a false but persuasive image of someone that did… and as a result, wound up ensnaring both Nick and Josh in a separate illusions and wounding each of them significantly when the illusion was revealed.  I don’t think she meant to do it, I don’t think she knew she was doing it, but she did it just the same.

I’m not sure, of course, but I don’t think Andi figured it out sooner than later, I think Josh did and broke up with her.  Her ‘performance’ at Chris’ premiere suggests to me that she was still trying to push the illusion (all the back rubbing and mega watt smiling) while Josh had already checked out.  It’s also in keeping with the total lack of self-awareness she has presented in the last months.  

I agree with your former hesitations about Chris and Des… I had the same experience, thinking she switched her heart too soon.  And good, as you suggest, that she and Chris took the time to build a solid foundation.

You are not the first to suggest that TPTB were angry at Andi for choosing the ‘leads’ they wanted and took it out on her (Nick) in postproduction… If true, it’s another level of evil and manipulation that’s really really creepy!

What TPTD mean anyway not up to breaking things down. If andi wasn't allowed to pick her voice then why have the show. After all this. News about how mad they were at andi and getting back at her with nick how horrible. I wish Chris nothing but the best he seems like an outstanding young man but I'm honestly done with the show I know it doesn't matter to anyone but it makes me feel good to stay it. Lol

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Josh that ended it despite reports that it was Andi. I think it probably came down to what he thought and/or Andi said she wanted. With the thought of a massive ring in her head Andi probably said
-she was returning to law and her old life
-wanted to get married in the spring and start having babies soon after
-a normal life away from the media, long walks in the park with sabel daily

What she actually wanted/did
-quit her job in search of fame as a designer
-put off the thought of a wedding, wanted to enjoy life for a few more years before babies (I think it was Michael and Kelly she said that on)
-shipped poor sabel off to Chads every week so they could live a jet set life

I can't blame Andi for being down theguy just probably chose his dog over her .

Chad tweeted last night that him, Blake, jay and Josh were working on bringing Advocare to Canada, that's a huge time investment from Josh and for everyone that said Andi only wanted a rich guy, being at the top of the pyramid for Advocare can bring in millions yearly. If they are at the top of chain in a new country they will be very successful. I love how Josh is keeping his friends involved in all of the Advocare stuff, he could make a ton of $$$ off of it but he hasn't forgotten his friends and he is giving them the opportunity to make money with him

I believe josh friends were involved in advocare before he was he even said he wished that he knew about advocare when he played football. But chad's family has been in advocare way before josh and so has his friend jay I don't say this to take away from his career drive but advocare starts in Texas Glad they might get to go to canada and be involved in whatever advocare is planning. I'm still baffled though how josh can take so much te away from his day job I wish I had a job like that. I'm a teacher in Ohio and there r a bunch of teachers I work with that r just like josh but they still come in an teach everyday I guess il not smart enough to make it work but I don't think my school administratoon would keep me either if I was taking off all the time just my opinion

Andi said Josh would work in bed Im guessing that he's one of those people who works 16 hours a day constantly with no issue, that's not me either but I give so much credit to those kind of people. I have no doubt that Jay and Chad brought Josh into the world of Advocare but I would guess that he's probably had more sales on his last 2 challenges then they've ever had. I'm not meaning that in a rude way at all but Josh's fan base were probably willing to shell out a couple hundred in order to talk to him on email or meet him in person. From the amount of feedback on his Instagram posts about Advocare it looks like they had a very good turnout to there events

I agree about josh but his publicity came when it was andi and josh matter of fact he still hasn't taken her picture off the advocare site with him hugging her I'm sure he will keep his fan base but it all started with them together

There is some flexibility in being a financial planner. Work can be done outside of the formal office setting.
That being said you are only as successful of a financial planner as the time and effort you put into it. Most people value their investments(to say the least!) and do spend time researching the person they trust their hard work funds to be invested. So you can read between the lines. Obviously, networking is important, also, but a good track record and work ethic means everything.
To me whether it' Advocare, Mary Kay, Avon, Shaklee, Herbal Life, or Amway--it has a bit of both part time job/used car salesman/snake oil salesman stigma attached to it. Some make a real go of it, most not so much.
As far as taking time away from their real job--that is subjective.
It amazes me how attached at the hip society is with their phones and that is more disruptive to work than anything. I have cameras everywhere at work. The only time I use my phone is in a private restroom and as a nurse, restroom breaks are few and far between. But everywhere I go people are on the phone at work texting, searching etc. Really? Do your work!