Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread #2

[stuckinsc]

I have no desire to keep discussing what happened on the show.  We made fun of Nick for not letting go, well, I am ready to let go of the season as well.  Monday will be four weeks from the AFTR, so really nothing new and nothing that hasn't been talked about backward, forward, up, down and sideways.

I prefer to talk about the future. 

I am moving on like many made fun of Nick for not doing.  I hope we can talk about the couple post show and not keep dragging up the past.  

In the past Josh was chosen by Andi and they are all but living together.

Now, I prefer to talk about their future.

You may talk about anything you chose.

To be fair, Andi is still facing a lot of hate in regards to what she did on the show too. She's being treated the same way. I'd prefer to talk about the future as well, although I just won't hate on her for currently not working and being in the real world, when other things can happen in real life that don't focus solely on having a job or not. Many contestants and leads from this show not work either right away. It's not like Andi is some sort of enigma in that regard.

Andi chose to be a lead on the show, almost every lead has dealt with backlash post show.  Ashley was intensely criticized for letting Ben propose.  Emily was hated for picking Jef and not Arie.  Des was hated for seeming to change her mind so fast.  I actually don't think anything being said about Andi on this board even comes close to the level of vitriol that we had after Emily or Des. 

For the most part the media has stopped talking about Josh or Andi.  The last interview was the Wednesday after AFTR, so July 30th and Nick's guest blog to Sean was August 7th.  So at least 14 days. 

If Sean and Cat announced a date for the wedding one month after their AFTR I would have been concerned.  Same for Ashley and JP and Des and Chris.  If they are going to announce a wedding date, which was being speculated in this thread, then yes, I am curious about what they are doing long term for their life.

If their big announcement is them both going on DWTS, great that would be cool too.

I take marriage very seriously, since I failed at it my first time and don't wish that on anyone else.  Again, a discussion, not a criticism.  My concern for any couple who gets married too soon is true for the ones I met on this show and the ones I know in real life.

I am not a fan of people marrying during graduate school.  I think you grow and change a lot during law school, medical school, dental school and any other graduate education.  So I have recommended many of my friends wait until after to marry.  Then again, I didn't take my own advice, though my husband is very stable in his job and I have been treading water towards graduation for over a year. 

So I am not saying anything of Josh and Andi that I have not said for others.  Why rush, why not figure out where life is taking you first?

I was not a Des and Chris fan this time last year.  But they grew together and eventually I grew to love them.  I have admitted this.  So, I can change my mind.

What I have seen of Andi, is that she very briefly held her "dream" job.  One which she easily gave up for the past year of being on reality tv.  She now is embracing staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home.  That is great, but all of it screams a woman in transition to me.  I would say find our stability before you marry.  Again, the advice that I have given to others and advice that when given to me, I ignored.  So that comes from a good place and not a criticizing Andi place.

I have a lot of life lessons I have learned.  When possible I prefer to share that wisdom and not see people repeat my mistakes.  I have seen it with my friends, so yes, as we are allowed I express my opinions.

[pander3575]

I have no desire to keep discussing what happened on the show.  We made fun of Nick for not letting go, well, I am ready to let go of the season as well.  Monday will be four weeks from the AFTR, so really nothing new and nothing that hasn't been talked about backward, forward, up, down and sideways.

I prefer to talk about the future. 

I am moving on like many made fun of Nick for not doing.  I hope we can talk about the couple post show and not keep dragging up the past.  

In the past Josh was chosen by Andi and they are all but living together.

Now, I prefer to talk about their future.

You may talk about anything you chose.

To be fair, Andi is still facing a lot of hate in regards to what she did on the show too. She's being treated the same way. I'd prefer to talk about the future as well, although I just won't hate on her for currently not working and being in the real world, when other things can happen in real life that don't focus solely on having a job or not. Many contestants and leads from this show not work either right away. It's not like Andi is some sort of enigma in that regard.

Andi chose to be a lead on the show, almost every lead has dealt with backlash post show.  Ashley was intensely criticized for letting Ben propose.  Emily was hated for picking Jef and not Arie.  Des was hated for seeming to change her mind so fast.  I actually don't think anything being said about Andi on this board even comes close to the level of vitriol that we had after Emily or Des. 

For the most part the media has stopped talking about Josh or Andi.  The last interview was the Wednesday after AFTR, so July 30th and Nick's guest blog to Sean was August 7th.  So at least 14 days. 

If Sean and Cat announced a date for the wedding one month after their AFTR I would have been concerned.  Same for Ashley and JP and Des and Chris.  If they are going to announce a wedding date, which was being speculated in this thread, then yes, I am curious about what they are doing long term for their life.

If their big announcement is them both going on DWTS, great that would be cool too.

I take marriage very seriously, since I failed at it my first time and don't wish that on anyone else.  Again, a discussion, not a criticism.  My concern for any couple who gets married too soon is true for the ones I met on this show and the ones I know in real life.

I am not a fan of people marrying during graduate school.  I think you grow and change a lot during law school, medical school, dental school and any other graduate education.  So I have recommended many of my friends wait until after to marry.  Then again, I didn't take my own advice, though my husband is very stable in his job and I have been treading water towards graduation for over a year. 

So I am not saying anything of Josh and Andi that I have not said for others.  Why rush, why not figure out where life is taking you first?

I was not a Des and Chris fan this time last year.  But they grew together and eventually I grew to love them.  I have admitted this.  So, I can change my mind.

What I have seen of Andi, is that she very briefly held her "dream" job.  One which she easily gave up for the past year of being on reality tv.  She now is embracing staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home.  That is great, but all of it screams a woman in transition to me.  I would say find our stability before you marry.  Again, the advice that I have given to others and advice that when given to me, I ignored.  So that comes from a good place and not a criticizing Andi place.

I have a lot of life lessons I have learned.  When possible I prefer to share that wisdom and not see people repeat my mistakes.  I have seen it with my friends, so yes, as we are allowed I express my opinions.

In your opinion all Andi is doing is staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home but what Ash was saying is we don't know what she is doing. It could be trying to find a new job. We just don't know what her daily life is. Yes her and Josh work out but so do many other people and that's not an all day activity.

As far as rushing into marriage I think generally most people know when they are ready and when they are not. I have one son that wanted to get married after dating his wife 3 mos but another son that took 5 years. We are all different and whether you wait or not doesn't necessarily mean you will have a greater success rate.

I'll leave the decision for Josh and Andi as to when they will get married up to them.

[Guest]

To me there was something "off" about Andi ever since she first appeared on Juan Pablo's season. She just seemed fake somehow and her light-hearted banter so forced. She also displayed a lot of insecurity for someone who claimed to be such a strong independent woman. It felt like she was always needing reassurance from Juan Pablo, which is strange because I don't think she ever really liked him. I didn't mind her ranting at JP though, because I was so bored of the season by then and didn't really like any of the people left, so at least it provided some entertainment. But I didn't want her as the Bachelorette, because she seemed like a fake ball-buster to me. Not to mention the stuff about "real men" and guns.

When her season started I wanted to give her a chance because I want to enjoy the show, but she still came off really fake to me in the beginning. I excused it though, because I know I'd be equally fake meeting 25 strangers looking to date me. I started appreciating her in the following episodes because it seemed like she tried to really get to know the guys, so much so that I found myself wondering what it is she wants or likes, because it seemed to never come up. I was even mostly siding with her on the Eric thing and thought they were a poor match, so there was no point keeping him around. I tried hard to ignore the strangeness of the talk with CH after and I was actually rooting for her until the finale. But then she showed her true colours once and for all and there are no more excuses left that I can think of. I just do not like her. At all.

I don't wish her unhappiness though, because that certainly doesn't improve a person, so I hope things with Josh work out. I will however be pissed if she gets a TV wedding and Desiree doesn't. I was never a big fan of Des, but she is one of the sweetest and most genuine leads ever and set a good example for young women everywhere by recognizing and accepting unconditional love. She deserves a TV wedding over Andi.

This post pretty much sums up my feelings. And really it echoes how I felt about Juan Pablo's season too. Both ended up for me with stories I didn't care about involving not very likeable people. That's 2 seasons in a row where the show lost my interest by the end by showing the main end characters (lead and F2) in a not that likeable light. Hoping this is not an editing trend, just a result of 2 not that great leads and that next season can return to an Ali or Sean type season where we can love the lead and their F2 based on good edits and be invested in all their stories. A third like the last 2 they might lose me for good.

[stuckinsc]

To be fair, Andi is still facing a lot of hate in regards to what she did on the show too. She's being treated the same way. I'd prefer to talk about the future as well, although I just won't hate on her for currently not working and being in the real world, when other things can happen in real life that don't focus solely on having a job or not. Many contestants and leads from this show not work either right away. It's not like Andi is some sort of enigma in that regard.

Andi chose to be a lead on the show, almost every lead has dealt with backlash post show.  Ashley was intensely criticized for letting Ben propose.  Emily was hated for picking Jef and not Arie.  Des was hated for seeming to change her mind so fast.  I actually don't think anything being said about Andi on this board even comes close to the level of vitriol that we had after Emily or Des. 

For the most part the media has stopped talking about Josh or Andi.  The last interview was the Wednesday after AFTR, so July 30th and Nick's guest blog to Sean was August 7th.  So at least 14 days. 

If Sean and Cat announced a date for the wedding one month after their AFTR I would have been concerned.  Same for Ashley and JP and Des and Chris.  If they are going to announce a wedding date, which was being speculated in this thread, then yes, I am curious about what they are doing long term for their life.

If their big announcement is them both going on DWTS, great that would be cool too.

I take marriage very seriously, since I failed at it my first time and don't wish that on anyone else.  Again, a discussion, not a criticism.  My concern for any couple who gets married too soon is true for the ones I met on this show and the ones I know in real life.

I am not a fan of people marrying during graduate school.  I think you grow and change a lot during law school, medical school, dental school and any other graduate education.  So I have recommended many of my friends wait until after to marry.  Then again, I didn't take my own advice, though my husband is very stable in his job and I have been treading water towards graduation for over a year. 

So I am not saying anything of Josh and Andi that I have not said for others.  Why rush, why not figure out where life is taking you first?

I was not a Des and Chris fan this time last year.  But they grew together and eventually I grew to love them.  I have admitted this.  So, I can change my mind.

What I have seen of Andi, is that she very briefly held her "dream" job.  One which she easily gave up for the past year of being on reality tv.  She now is embracing staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home.  That is great, but all of it screams a woman in transition to me.  I would say find our stability before you marry.  Again, the advice that I have given to others and advice that when given to me, I ignored.  So that comes from a good place and not a criticizing Andi place.

I have a lot of life lessons I have learned.  When possible I prefer to share that wisdom and not see people repeat my mistakes.  I have seen it with my friends, so yes, as we are allowed I express my opinions.

In your opinion all Andi is doing is staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home but what Ash was saying is we don't know what she is doing.  It could be trying to find a new job.  We just don't know what her daily life is.  Yes her and Josh work out but so do many other people and that's not an all day activity.  

As far as rushing into marriage I think generally most people know when they are ready and when they are not.  I have one son that wanted to get married after dating his wife 3 mos but another son that took 5 years.  We are all different and whether you wait or not doesn't necessarily mean you will have a greater success rate.

I'll leave the decision for Josh and Andi as to when they will get married up to them.

Okay, great to know. I think speculating about what people do etc. is kind of what we do on this board.  In the Des and Chris thread, there is lots of speculation on when they will get married etc.  I am speculating on Andi.  This is not a criticism, so why such a need to tell me how wrong I am? Is this not a discussion thread. 

I see Andi as a woman in transition.  I personally would tell someone in transition to figure out their life before doing something as permanent as marriage.

But as I have been told repeatedly tonight that is their choice and you are all correct.  I have stated my opinion, as have some of you as well.

I actually understand what most of all of you are saying, hopefully some of what I am saying can be actually discussed instead of just being said it is wrong.  I like to discuss things back and forth.  It is part of how I learn.  It is how I learned to change my mind on Des and Chris.

I am expressing my experience and my opinions.  I think that is still allowed in the discussion threads is it not?

[aviej]

Andi chose to be a lead on the show, almost every lead has dealt with backlash post show.  Ashley was intensely criticized for letting Ben propose.  Emily was hated for picking Jef and not Arie.  Des was hated for seeming to change her mind so fast.  I actually don't think anything being said about Andi on this board even comes close to the level of vitriol that we had after Emily or Des. 

For the most part the media has stopped talking about Josh or Andi.  The last interview was the Wednesday after AFTR, so July 30th and Nick's guest blog to Sean was August 7th.  So at least 14 days. 

If Sean and Cat announced a date for the wedding one month after their AFTR I would have been concerned.  Same for Ashley and JP and Des and Chris.  If they are going to announce a wedding date, which was being speculated in this thread, then yes, I am curious about what they are doing long term for their life.

If their big announcement is them both going on DWTS, great that would be cool too.

I take marriage very seriously, since I failed at it my first time and don't wish that on anyone else.  Again, a discussion, not a criticism.  My concern for any couple who gets married too soon is true for the ones I met on this show and the ones I know in real life.

I am not a fan of people marrying during graduate school.  I think you grow and change a lot during law school, medical school, dental school and any other graduate education.  So I have recommended many of my friends wait until after to marry.  Then again, I didn't take my own advice, though my husband is very stable in his job and I have been treading water towards graduation for over a year. 

So I am not saying anything of Josh and Andi that I have not said for others.  Why rush, why not figure out where life is taking you first?

I was not a Des and Chris fan this time last year.  But they grew together and eventually I grew to love them.  I have admitted this.  So, I can change my mind.

What I have seen of Andi, is that she very briefly held her "dream" job.  One which she easily gave up for the past year of being on reality tv.  She now is embracing staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home.  That is great, but all of it screams a woman in transition to me.  I would say find our stability before you marry.  Again, the advice that I have given to others and advice that when given to me, I ignored.  So that comes from a good place and not a criticizing Andi place.

I have a lot of life lessons I have learned.  When possible I prefer to share that wisdom and not see people repeat my mistakes.  I have seen it with my friends, so yes, as we are allowed I express my opinions.

In your opinion all Andi is doing is staying home and taking care of her and Josh's home but what Ash was saying is we don't know what she is doing.  It could be trying to find a new job.  We just don't know what her daily life is.  Yes her and Josh work out but so do many other people and that's not an all day activity.  

As far as rushing into marriage I think generally most people know when they are ready and when they are not.  I have one son that wanted to get married after dating his wife 3 mos but another son that took 5 years.  We are all different and whether you wait or not doesn't necessarily mean you will have a greater success rate.

I'll leave the decision for Josh and Andi as to when they will get married up to them.

Okay, great to know. I think speculating about what people do etc. is kind of what we do on this board.  In the Des and Chris thread, there is lots of speculation on when they will get married etc.  I am speculating on Andi.  This is not a criticism, so why such a need to tell me how wrong I am? Is this not a discussion thread. 

I see Andi as a woman in transition.  I personally would tell someone in transition to figure out their life before doing something as permanent as marriage.

But as I have been told repeatedly tonight that is their choice and you are all correct.  I have stated my opinion, as have some of you as well.

I actually understand what most of all of you are saying, hopefully some of what I am saying can be actually discussed instead of just being said it is wrong.  I like to discuss things back and forth.  It is part of how I learn.  It is how I learned to change my mind on Des and Chris.

I am expressing my experience and my opinions.  I think that is still allowed in the discussion threads is it not?

If you knew for certain that she was in active pursuit of a job, would it change any of what you have already said?

[emusha]

same here relaxing -- i'm getting completely turned off of the US bach franchise with their recent track record

[stuckinsc]

Okay, since apparently my asking about Andi's job is a big deal, let me clarify myself.

Andi spent 2009-2012 pursuing her law degree.  She then spent what I will assume is a lot of time studying for the bar exam, since I have been told it is a huge endeavor and not something that any lawyer takes lightly.  She obviously did a great job and passed on her first try, since she seemed to be working pretty quickly.

She then started what she has called her "dream" job as an ADA. I put this in quotes not to make fun of Andi, but because I think being an ADA is an extremely hard job and not a lot of fun.  It requires long hours with little glory and working in circumstances that are not all that fun.  Plus, the Fulton county DA has actually suffered fatalities many times.  So with the quotes, I do mean that she may have thought it would be great and learned it wasn't really all she wanted it to be.  Nothing wrong with that.

She jumped from this high stress job into bachelor land in September of 2013 and she has been there ever since.  Bachelor land is not real life, though, yes some do seem to make a career of it.

Since the show she has resigned from her job.  Again, I am not passing judgement, but she had a leave of absence until December and she chose to resign instead. 

I am curious what she is planning to do next.

I think being a housewife is noble, so if that is what she is doing great.  If she is looking for a change in law and to do something else with her law career that is great.  I have previously stated that if Josh is going into sports financial advising with Andi's law experience in contracts, etc, that they make a very successful and powerful team.

But all of this to me shows a woman in transition.  So yes, I am curious to know what she is doing next. 

I wouldn't advise any woman in transition to marry until she had some idea of what she was doing with her life.  That is not specific to Andi, it is something I would tell anyone and have told my friends here.

Marriage is a life long commitment.  I know Josh takes it very seriously and I assume that Andi does too.  So to me it seems that they are still in a transition stage, so why not wait until they are more settled to marry.

It is not a criticism, it is a suggestion.  One that I hope would give greater success to their marriage.

All marriage involves struggle, but why not go into it with the best odds?

I know that I hated being divorced and how much easier and more pleasant my marriage is this time that I took the time to know myself and my husband to be. 

I have failed at marriage, that to me was a huge failure.  The second biggest in my life.  It hurt and I was ashamed of myself for being divorced.  It is not something I wish on my worst enemy.

So when I ask why rush and if Andi doesn't know what she wants to do yet, then why not wait a while, it is not being nasty.

It is expressing my opinion based on my experience.

I may not like Andi, but I wish no one the pain of an unhappy marriage or a divorce.  So to me waiting until you weren't in transition anymore is not a bad idea.

I have to say, I realize that we are all allowed our opinions, but truly it is starting to feel like I am being attacked a bit and what I am trying to say, apparently ineffectively, is why the rush for marriage?  Why not settle in a little first?  They are even living in the same apartment yet, though they spend all their time together.  Again, not an issue, but since they have stated they will be living together come September, so that is obviously not something they have to push marriage for.

I also don't know that they are rushing.  My post was in response to other posts that seem to want them to announce a wedding and get married soon.  For their sake, from my experience, I would hope they wait a little while and know each other once they have settled into the life that they will have.  If this is it, great.  I just have not read or heard that this is it, so I have asked that question.

[Ash2214]

Stuckinc, as someone young that has obviously not been through it and since my parents are still together but aren't perfect, I can't imagine what going through a divorce must be like. I'm sorry you had to go through it, but with you it certainly seems like you are happy with your life now. Being happy is all that matters.

I hope with all of my responses to you on all threads that you don't feel like I attack you. We definitely have opposite opinions, but for crying out loud I converse with you the most I think I enjoy reading your posts even though we don't see eye to eye.

I am in total agreement with you that Andi and Josh shouldn't rush into anything too quickly. I completely agree. 100%. I think it just appears that quite a few of us feel like since we aren't with them all the time, that we don't know what their thought processes are and what they're doing in their spare time and perhaps many of us took your posts as attacking Andi for not having a job and so forth. Your latest post obviously really cleared that up though.

Keep on posting. You're always really in depth. You always get me to respond!

[stuckinsc]

same here relaxing -- i'm getting completely turned off of the US bach franchise with their recent track record

Sadly enough, this didn't have to be the case.  In both of the last seasons they had very happy couples at the end.  With JPG and Nikki, instead of pushing the whole stupid ILY conversation, they could have talked about all the times that they had met up, their plans to go to DR for a wedding, going to ballgames together, plans for Nikki to spend time with Camila.  They could easily have explained away the no proposal as JPG honoring Nikki's dads request.  Which it was at least partially true.  There was happiness to be had there, but TPTB, MF and the talking head CH decided to attack and play negative.

This season we have another happy couple and again, TPTB choses to spend three quarters of the AFTR on the F2.  They have had controversal F2s before.  I remember Matthew confronting Meredith on her saying she would be honored to get a ring from him.  That was still no more than a quarter of the show.  Andy told Bevin he loved her and not in the like a sister way that Sean did to Lindsay at FRC and still the happy couple of Tessa and Andy got at least equal time to Bevin.

This year, just like all season, AFTR was the Nick show. 

I asked this before and got shot down, but I will try again.

We know TPTB hated JPG.  Hence the horrible AFTR.

Did they decide that misery is better ratings?  Or as is my opinion, why the negative edit of Josh and Andi.  They really spent all season showing us Andi and Nick's love story and only started showing us the major Josh and Andi love story somewhat in Brussels and then mostly at FDs.  I am sure there was more there, but they didn't give it equal time to Nick and Andi's story.  Then the AFTR at which the happy couple barely got to speak, they didn't to a retrospective of their love story at all and they didn't even show them watching their proposal.  The first proposal they have not had the happy couple watch on live tv.  Why?

Again this is not blaming Andi.  Did TPTB decide their animosity towards JPG got ratings, so it is in their best interest to torture the leads and not show their happiness as much?  Or did Andi do something they didn't like.

I was kind of shocked because I thought Andi was a real favorite for them.  I wondered if they got mad at her for not keeping Eric and then choosing Josh and effectively ruining their first two choices for the next bachelor. The whole thing was odd and now that you mentioned it sad.  Two seasons in a row with AFTRs leaving a bad taste and not leaving the lead in the best possible light.

[Guest]

same here relaxing -- i'm getting completely turned off of the US bach franchise with their recent track record

Sadly enough, this didn't have to be the case.  In both of the last seasons they had very happy couples at the end.  With JPG and Nikki, instead of pushing the whole stupid ILY conversation, they could have talked about all the times that they had met up, their plans to go to DR for a wedding, going to ballgames together, plans for Nikki to spend time with Camila.  They could easily have explained away the no proposal as JPG honoring Nikki's dads request.  Which it was at least partially true.  There was happiness to be had there, but TPTB, MF and the talking head CH decided to attack and play negative.

This season we have another happy couple and again, TPTB choses to spend three quarters of the AFTR on the F2.  They have had controversal F2s before.  I remember Matthew confronting Meredith on her saying she would be honored to get a ring from him.  That was still no more than a quarter of the show.  Andy told Bevin he loved her and not in the like a sister way that Sean did to Lindsay at FRC and still the happy couple of Tessa and Andy got at least equal time to Bevin.

This year, just like all season, AFTR was the Nick show. 

I asked this before and got shot down, but I will try again.

We know TPTB hated JPG.  Hence the horrible AFTR.

Did they decide that misery is better ratings?  Or as is my opinion, why the negative edit of Josh and Andi.  They really spent all season showing us Andi and Nick's love story and only started showing us the major Josh and Andi love story somewhat in Brussels and then mostly at FDs.  I am sure there was more there, but they didn't give it equal time to Nick and Andi's story.  Then the AFTR at which the happy couple barely got to speak, they didn't to a retrospective of their love story at all and they didn't even show them watching their proposal.  The first proposal they have not had the happy couple watch on live tv.  Why?

Again this is not blaming Andi.  Did TPTB decide their animosity towards JPG got ratings, so it is in their best interest to torture the leads and not show their happiness as much?  Or did Andi do something they didn't like.

I was kind of shocked because I thought Andi was a real favorite for them.  I wondered if they got mad at her for not keeping Eric and then choosing Josh and effectively ruining their first two choices for the next bachelor. The whole thing was odd and now that you mentioned it sad.  Two seasons in a row with AFTRs leaving a bad taste and not leaving the lead in the best possible light.

Totally Stuckinsc, that's my concern.  It seems the last 2 seasons followed a similar pattern to not make anyone very likable coming out at the end and with no real attempt to "sell" the couple.  I get it with JP and Nikki,  he didn't cooperate, they didn't like him, there was no proposal etc.  But this season not sure why they didn't seem to care that they had a great looking couple at the end.  I'm sure in both cases the show could have been edited to give viewers more warm feelings towards the final couples.   If this is their new editing pattern, it's not going to keep my interest.  I try to like the main characters each season and I like to like the couple at the end.  That's starting to feel like a distant memory and lately I'm more wondering, why do I like this show so much again?

[Relalou]

same here relaxing -- i'm getting completely turned off of the US bach franchise with their recent track record

Sadly enough, this didn't have to be the case.  In both of the last seasons they had very happy couples at the end.  With JPG and Nikki, instead of pushing the whole stupid ILY conversation, they could have talked about all the times that they had met up, their plans to go to DR for a wedding, going to ballgames together, plans for Nikki to spend time with Camila.  They could easily have explained away the no proposal as JPG honoring Nikki's dads request.  Which it was at least partially true.  There was happiness to be had there, but TPTB, MF and the talking head CH decided to attack and play negative.

This season we have another happy couple and again, TPTB choses to spend three quarters of the AFTR on the F2.  They have had controversal F2s before.  I remember Matthew confronting Meredith on her saying she would be honored to get a ring from him.  That was still no more than a quarter of the show.  Andy told Bevin he loved her and not in the like a sister way that Sean did to Lindsay at FRC and still the happy couple of Tessa and Andy got at least equal time to Bevin.

This year, just like all season, AFTR was the Nick show. 

I asked this before and got shot down, but I will try again.

We know TPTB hated JPG.  Hence the horrible AFTR.

Did they decide that misery is better ratings?  Or as is my opinion, why the negative edit of Josh and Andi.  They really spent all season showing us Andi and Nick's love story and only started showing us the major Josh and Andi love story somewhat in Brussels and then mostly at FDs.  I am sure there was more there, but they didn't give it equal time to Nick and Andi's story.  Then the AFTR at which the happy couple barely got to speak, they didn't to a retrospective of their love story at all and they didn't even show them watching their proposal.  The first proposal they have not had the happy couple watch on live tv.  Why?

Again this is not blaming Andi.  Did TPTB decide their animosity towards JPG got ratings, so it is in their best interest to torture the leads and not show their happiness as much?  Or did Andi do something they didn't like.

I was kind of shocked because I thought Andi was a real favorite for them.  I wondered if they got mad at her for not keeping Eric and then choosing Josh and effectively ruining their first two choices for the next bachelor. The whole thing was odd and now that you mentioned it sad.  Two seasons in a row with AFTRs leaving a bad taste and not leaving the lead in the best possible light.

Totally Stuckinsc, that's my concern.  It seems the last 2 seasons followed a similar pattern to not make anyone very likable coming out at the end and with no real attempt to "sell" the couple.  I get it with JP and Nikki,  he didn't cooperate, they didn't like him, there was no proposal etc.  But this season not sure why they didn't seem to care that they had a great looking couple at the end.  I'm sure in both cases the show could have been edited to give viewers more warm feelings towards the final couples.   If this is their new editing pattern, it's not going to keep my interest.  I try to like the main characters each season and I like to like the couple at the end.  That's starting to feel like a distant memory and lately I'm more wondering, why do I like this show so much again?

I agree that the JPG season wasn't a good one for the viewers - or for JPG for that matter. However, I loved this season and I saw (and see) the potential for a great long-term relationship that has come out of it. I think that Andi's intentions were sincere and her desire to meet a life partner have probably been fulfilled (time will tell). I also think that she narrowed down the guys well and finished with a very sincere group of nice guys from whom she picked the one for her. If TPTB would go for a little less dramatic editing and a little more showing of the "real" conversations we hear about but never get to see, then it would be a good next season to look forward to!

[BohemianNika]

same here relaxing -- i'm getting completely turned off of the US bach franchise with their recent track record

Sadly enough, this didn't have to be the case.  In both of the last seasons they had very happy couples at the end.  With JPG and Nikki, instead of pushing the whole stupid ILY conversation, they could have talked about all the times that they had met up, their plans to go to DR for a wedding, going to ballgames together, plans for Nikki to spend time with Camila.  They could easily have explained away the no proposal as JPG honoring Nikki's dads request.  Which it was at least partially true.  There was happiness to be had there, but TPTB, MF and the talking head CH decided to attack and play negative.

This season we have another happy couple and again, TPTB choses to spend three quarters of the AFTR on the F2.  They have had controversal F2s before.  I remember Matthew confronting Meredith on her saying she would be honored to get a ring from him.  That was still no more than a quarter of the show.  Andy told Bevin he loved her and not in the like a sister way that Sean did to Lindsay at FRC and still the happy couple of Tessa and Andy got at least equal time to Bevin.

This year, just like all season, AFTR was the Nick show. 

I asked this before and got shot down, but I will try again.

We know TPTB hated JPG.  Hence the horrible AFTR.

Did they decide that misery is better ratings?  Or as is my opinion, why the negative edit of Josh and Andi.  They really spent all season showing us Andi and Nick's love story and only started showing us the major Josh and Andi love story somewhat in Brussels and then mostly at FDs.  I am sure there was more there, but they didn't give it equal time to Nick and Andi's story.  Then the AFTR at which the happy couple barely got to speak, they didn't to a retrospective of their love story at all and they didn't even show them watching their proposal.  The first proposal they have not had the happy couple watch on live tv.  Why?

Again this is not blaming Andi.  Did TPTB decide their animosity towards JPG got ratings, so it is in their best interest to torture the leads and not show their happiness as much?  Or did Andi do something they didn't like.

I was kind of shocked because I thought Andi was a real favorite for them.  I wondered if they got mad at her for not keeping Eric and then choosing Josh and effectively ruining their first two choices for the next bachelor. The whole thing was odd and now that you mentioned it sad.  Two seasons in a row with AFTRs leaving a bad taste and not leaving the lead in the best possible light.

From the SM interaction, I would say the producers and assistants loved Andi very much and were happy for her and Josh. Now, were they hoping they could have Josh as TB? Totally! Were they whispering to Andi to be careful, because he could pull Brooks? For sure. I think the producers are kinda evil in a way that they are able to differentiate between their personal relationship with the lead (and contestants) and what they think is best for the ratings and storybuilding. Case in point is Ben's season. Courtney got terrible edit, yet she is still friends with some of the producers. Also, from what I've heard, they didn't like Ben that much, but if he wasn't caught with other girls before the ATFR shooting, he would be portrayed as a poor victim to the "evil" Courtney. The producers and editors do whatever they think is best for the show. Whether they are right or not is a question.

I wasn't here when this season aired, but I did go back to read the unspoiled discussions and many great sleuthers there were confident Josh was the F1 for a long time. So to some people, their love story wasn't that much hidden. Again, I don't think they were trying to give Andi and Josh a bad edit - in their minds, they were just trying to make the season more interesting.

As for Andi and Josh not watching their proposal on ATFR, there might be a logical explanation. The producers didn't expect it would take Nick so long to ask THE infamous question. Whether you agree with what Nick did or not, to me, in hindsight it's obvious that's what the producers were hoping for, and they gave him all the time he needed to get there. After that, it was between the proposal and grumpy cat. And let's be honest - they paid for the grumpy cat and were gonna use it.

Honestly, with Nick's truthbomb, I think they were more aiming for the after show media buzz, than for ratings - but it is just my opinion.

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