Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread #2

[Relalou]

I've actually wondered if Andi wanting to leave Atlanta had something to do with the things that lady tweeted Nick about and then soon deleted. That is, about her bad reputation in the legal scene there. I mean if we were to believe her, then I can see Andi wanting a change of scenery. She kind of seems like the type to run away from problems IMO. And she was so quick to quit her job that she worked so hard for.

Her credibility and reputation is shot because of how she conducted herself in this show.   She has shown no humility, tact or compassion and I'm not even talking about Nick.  She should really hang on to Josh because he has already suffered all sorts of humiliation just to be with her.   Her saving grace was  there was a doofus at the end who proposed to her.  Everything is forgiven if you managed a "happy ending" no matter how ingenious, pretentious and cruel you are in dismissing your relationships.  

I remembered what Josh' mom said to him during the hometowns,  that for the longest time he has put others before himself for so long and now its his time to to put himself first.   Now he ends up with a self absorbed brat who can't take any kind of opposition or negative feedback.  This is why she cannot be with Nick because he has the nerve to challenge her.  Andi needs someone who will let her wear the pants and as long as Josh is docile and stay under her thumb, there will be no trouble.  

I have to apologize to Andi's fans... but really I have never seen a Bachelorette treat people so bad and got away with it.  I just feel that Juan Pablo and other Bachelors were punished so much by the media and fans for being honest and truthful but they werent unkind or cruel or dismissive toward people as Andi was.   I just feel sorry for Josh he deserved much much better.

Hey charriotoffire - I am and Andi fan, but that's ok. You are entitled to express your opinion. I see things completely differently and that's ok too! I see a woman who went after love "not because she needed it, but because she wanted it" (her words) and she explored her options to get it. She is pretty self-sufficient, pretty self-aware and pretty brave IMO. In every day (real) life, a lot of the ways that bach/ettes behave is completely unpardonable but under the premises of this wacky show (which I love!) most social/dating norms get thrown out of the window (and TPTB actively encourage this and isolate the bach/ette from any truth tellers in their lives who might advise them differently). I see Andi as a strong woman who is unafraid to put herself out there and to go after what she needs. I think that she bore up well under the pressures and emotions of the lead role and that the end result reflects the qualities that I mentioned and is more than happenstance. I don't see Josh as a doofus, I see him as a guy who also recognized Andi as embodying what he wanted and needed in a woman AND as someone with an understanding the premise and the danger of the show.

[stuckinsc]

I can agree that Josh is an adult and has been for a while.  Andi barely worked one year in the real world before taking off to tape the bachelor, since then she has been living in bachelor/bachelorette fairytale world.  So I am not all that sure how much of a grown up Andi is.  Not to sure on the self-sufficient premises either.  Again, she was in the real world for one year as a grown up and has been out of it for almost a year now and seems to have no plans to go back.  

If she is going to be a housewife, great, it is an honorable thing to do if the couple can afford it.  If not, then she is still just playing and not being real.

[BohemianNika]

I've actually wondered if Andi wanting to leave Atlanta had something to do with the things that lady tweeted Nick about and then soon deleted. That is, about her bad reputation in the legal scene there. I mean if we were to believe her, then I can see Andi wanting a change of scenery. She kind of seems like the type to run away from problems IMO. And she was so quick to quit her job that she worked so hard for.

Her credibility and reputation is shot because of how she conducted herself in this show.   She has shown no humility, tact or compassion and I'm not even talking about Nick.  She should really hang on to Josh because he has already suffered all sorts of humiliation just to be with her.   Her saving grace was  there was a doofus at the end who proposed to her.  Everything is forgiven if you managed a "happy ending" no matter how ingenious, pretentious and cruel you are in dismissing your relationships.  

I remembered what Josh' mom said to him during the hometowns,  that for the longest time he has put others before himself for so long and now its his time to to put himself first.   Now he ends up with a self absorbed brat who can't take any kind of opposition or negative feedback.  This is why she cannot be with Nick because he has the nerve to challenge her.  Andi needs someone who will let her wear the pants and as long as Josh is docile and stay under her thumb, there will be no trouble.  

I have to apologize to Andi's fans... but really I have never seen a Bachelorette treat people so bad and got away with it.  I just feel that Juan Pablo and other Bachelors were punished so much by the media and fans for being honest and truthful but they werent unkind or cruel or dismissive toward people as Andi was.   I just feel sorry for Josh he deserved much much better.

Andi fan here :WAVEY: No need to apologize, it's your opinion. But would you really use the words - humility, tact or compassion - to describe a successful lawyer?  Even if your assessment of her personality was correct, I don't think that would negatively  influence her reputation as a lawyer.

I have only watched Nick's dates with Andi once and have a genuine question. When did Nick seriously challenge Andi (before she broke up with him)? I don't recall that happening, but again, I didn't re-watch their dates.

I have also some good news for you. Josh seems to be very happy with Andi. And it looks like he is quite often the one wearing pants in their relationship, from what I've gathered from their latest radio interviews  

[aviej]

From Alanna's post in the Nick Discussion Thread.

"Regarding the first paragraph, Andi came on the show not wanting someone like her type (Josh), was tired of the whole atl scene and has said she wanted to move away from atl altogether even. Josh said all those things were a burden for him to fight through with her, they weren't positives for him. Personally, I think she didn't really want to leave her life behind but was just really, really frustrated with the whole dating situation and thought a change would help. Combine that with thinking Josh was too good to be true because every guy like him in the past seems to have hurt her in some way, and I understand why she couldn't trust him or what they had until they were in the fs alone. She needed to verify he was who he said he was and she went through the whole deal here.

She also did like Nick for real. It wasn't what she had with Josh but Nick/Andi seem really similar so I think they did understand each other and could communicate well and have deep, intellectual conversations, which she really did love. If they met in another context, I could see them being friends, but not romantically involved.

I guess I don't understand why all this is so hard to believe. She came on this show, met both Josh and Nick, gave both of them a chance, and was open until the end but had to follow her heart. Her behavior with Josh was always different, but even she says that she couldn't admit to what it was- love- until the end. I just don't understand what the complexity is. She slept with him because she was going through the whole process and then at the end, made her decision, and it wasn't Nick."

I don't mind Andi's choice.  It was the right one for her.

I also don't understand how in one year she was so tired and over the whole Atlanta social scene.  Because she graduated from Wake Forest Law School in Winston Salem, NC in May 2012, it may have been December, but I am assuming she did the standard three year program.  She would have been mostly study for the bar exam for most of 2012.  So really she was in the Atlanta social scene for all of one year.  So nope not buying the whole Atlanta social scene line.

I do think the athlete thing was real.  Her ex cheated on her and she was wanting a change from the athlete type.  Understandable.  I hate that she held it against Josh, since he was not the one to cheat on her.  

I am not much for taking people one on one as a type.  I find types rarely are true.  So that bugged me all season with her and Josh.  I really wished Josh had told her to stick her I don't want an athlete crap up her butt.

I really have no problem with Andi on the show, except for two things.  The one I already said, was the holding the athlete thing against Josh, but not Marcus or any of the other guys who were athletes.  The second was her inability to handle when someone questioned her.  This goes back to the bachelor with JPG, but she did it with Eric and then again with Nick.  If you question Andi she goes into attack mode.  It is not attractive.  She was slightly better with Josh, once he calmed her down after Venice, but her whole meltdown even with him and his dislike of the lie detector date was cringe worthy.

It is the second that continues to rank.  I have no problem with her getting to know Nick and even having sex with him. I don't believe it that if it weren't Josh she wouldn't be engaged.  She had to get engaged.  JPG did not get engaged and Andi was cast to be the anti-JPG, she was leaving DR with a ring on her finger.  TPTB would not have had it any other way and Andi was a good enough lead and TPTB soldier that she wasn't leaving without a ring.  Did that mean she maybe gave Nick more of a chance then she would have if she could have left without the engagement?  Maybe, we will never know.  I do think once she knew, 100% that Josh was all in and wanted to marry her it was game over.  I don't blame her for that.  I also don't celebrate her for not making Nick pick out a ring, that truly is not that big of a deal.  She could have put on her big girl panties and gone through the FS with Chris.  Believe it or not, some people don't have sex in the FS.  I don't think she and JPG had sex in the FS.  I think her ego wanted to release Chris before the FS, so she wouldn't be like JPG.  That is fine, except then she had to keep Nick all the way to the end, even though she may not have wanted to, once she knew Josh was the one.  That was her choice.  Andi's desire to out do JPG caused her to have the uncomfortableness of having to spend extra time with Nick.

I do think that once you have sex with someone, especially if that person has told you that they love you, that you owe them more compassion and sympathy.  She didn't have to stay with Nick, I am glad she didn't.  But as the man who she had led up until the ring choosing to believe that she would be willing to get engaged to him (she hugged him and gave off the happy vibe to Nick that Hy had given him permission to propose), she owed him more compassion than she showed.  You can disagree with me and that is fine.  But when you have sex with someone who tells you that they love you, it isn't just sex it is an act of love, and if you are breaking up with someone who loves you and who you demonstrated love to, then you owe them as much time as they need to feel better.  

That is my opinion.

I am happy for Andi and Josh.  I hope they wait a year to get married, just to settle into real life first, be that living together, Andi actually working again.  Whatever.  Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to rush to marry them.  I actually agreed with Sean on that score.  That person isn't your soulmate right away, that takes work and Josh and Andi are still in the new butterfly stage of the relationship.  Get through a few challenges, then get married.  Really know that they know how to deal with hard times together before they tie each other to one another.  I think they will make it through, but why rush, why not make sure first?

I'm only going to respond to the bolded.  From what Josh said on the show Hy and Patti were married within 9 months and still married 31 years.  I met my husband who was being transferred and only had dated him for 2 months and we managed to survive 26 years.  I've also known couples that have known each other for long periods of time before getting married and they didn't make it.  So what I'm trying to say is there is no guarantee whether they wait or not.  So maybe to them they aren't rushing and are sure.  Also we really don't know when they will get married.  If it's in May that would be a year after they got engaged.

I just hope they know each other through good and bad.  My main reason for this, is we have seen Andi not deal with difficulty or stress well.  See JPG break up and Eric dismissal.  I don't mean this to be harsh to them.  But Andi isn't living in real life right now unless she isn't going back to work.  Which if she isn't that is fine too.  But things are very easy right now, she has all her time to devote to Josh and just be happy.  It is important to see the good and bad with the person you love.  

Again, Josh is the right choice for Andi, I think they will stay together.  Just don't like to see any couple rush into marriage until they know each other.

Okay, I'm just going to highlight how they know each other through the good and bad. Granted, there are many more to come or even more complex but thus far they have been able to rise above it.

1. Lie detector test - Ofcourse we didn't get to see how all of the lie detector test played out. However, according to them, they were able to talk at length after that debacle and they resolved things.

2. In an interview Josh said that they do not have many fights. Some couples argue non stop and that's the essence of their relationship, others seldom argue. However, Andi was quick to add that it is the first time that she has ever given in as much re an argument now that she is with Josh. That means, that she is able to see where she is wrong (or at least Josh can show her) and she demonstrates enough maturity to give in and mend things.

3. I think the biggest challenge for them thus far has been the sl**-shaming on SM. Andi did admit that she has cried herself to sleep many a night because of it. Those feelings can put a strain on a relationship. However, Josh, with his strength was able to help her through it all.

Added to that, the fact that she consults him for everything suggests that she values his opinion and holds him in high regard. So yes, I do think they have surmounted challenges and will continue to do so. So May 9, in my opinion is not a rush. Remember as well in the normal dating scene you'd probably go out with your partner on average once or twice for the most per week. These lovebirds are joined by the hip. They see each other everyday. So therefore the learning curve in terms of getting to know someone won't be as acute as another couple who sees each other less frequently per week. Just saying...

[Kashathediva]

Per BohemianNika:

But would you really use the words - humility, tact or compassion - to describe a successful lawyer?

OMY! I hope so--my son-in-law is all of those these. Maybe not all at the same time and all the time. He is pretty good though!

[mindless]

To me there was something "off" about Andi ever since she first appeared on Juan Pablo's season. She just seemed fake somehow and her light-hearted banter so forced. She also displayed a lot of insecurity for someone who claimed to be such a strong independent woman. It felt like she was always needing reassurance from Juan Pablo, which is strange because I don't think she ever really liked him. I didn't mind her ranting at JP though, because I was so bored of the season by then and didn't really like any of the people left, so at least it provided some entertainment. But I didn't want her as the Bachelorette, because she seemed like a fake ball-buster to me. Not to mention the stuff about "real men" and guns.

When her season started I wanted to give her a chance because I want to enjoy the show, but she still came off really fake to me in the beginning. I excused it though, because I know I'd be equally fake meeting 25 strangers looking to date me. I started appreciating her in the following episodes because it seemed like she tried to really get to know the guys, so much so that I found myself wondering what it is she wants or likes, because it seemed to never come up. I was even mostly siding with her on the Eric thing and thought they were a poor match, so there was no point keeping him around. I tried hard to ignore the strangeness of the talk with CH after and I was actually rooting for her until the finale. But then she showed her true colours once and for all and there are no more excuses left that I can think of. I just do not like her. At all.

I don't wish her unhappiness though, because that certainly doesn't improve a person, so I hope things with Josh work out. I will however be pissed if she gets a TV wedding and Desiree doesn't. I was never a big fan of Des, but she is one of the sweetest and most genuine leads ever and set a good example for young women everywhere by recognizing and accepting unconditional love. She deserves a TV wedding over Andi.

[aviej]

I've actually wondered if Andi wanting to leave Atlanta had something to do with the things that lady tweeted Nick about and then soon deleted. That is, about her bad reputation in the legal scene there. I mean if we were to believe her, then I can see Andi wanting a change of scenery. She kind of seems like the type to run away from problems IMO. And she was so quick to quit her job that she worked so hard for.

Her credibility and reputation is shot because of how she conducted herself in this show.   She has shown no humility, tact or compassion and I'm not even talking about Nick.  She should really hang on to Josh because he has already suffered all sorts of humiliation just to be with her.   Her saving grace was  there was a doofus at the end who proposed to her.  Everything is forgiven if you managed a "happy ending" no matter how ingenious, pretentious and cruel you are in dismissing your relationships.  

I remembered what Josh' mom said to him during the hometowns,  that for the longest time he has put others before himself for so long and now its his time to to put himself first.   Now he ends up with a self absorbed brat who can't take any kind of opposition or negative feedback.  This is why she cannot be with Nick because he has the nerve to challenge her.  Andi needs someone who will let her wear the pants and as long as Josh is docile and stay under her thumb, there will be no trouble.  

I have to apologize to Andi's fans... but really I have never seen a Bachelorette treat people so bad and got away with it.  I just feel that Juan Pablo and other Bachelors were punished so much by the media and fans for being honest and truthful but they werent unkind or cruel or dismissive toward people as Andi was.   I just feel sorry for Josh he deserved much much better.

Andi fan here :WAVEY: No need to apologize, it's your opinion. But would you really use the words - humility, tact or compassion - to describe a successful lawyer?  Even if your assessment of her personality was correct, I don't think that would negatively  influence her reputation as a lawyer.

I have only watched Nick's dates with Andi once and have a genuine question. When did Nick seriously challenge Andi (before she broke up with him)? I don't recall that happening, but again, I didn't re-watch their dates.

I have also some good news for you. Josh seems to be very happy with Andi. And it looks like he is quite often the one wearing pants in their relationship, from what I've gathered from their latest radio interviews  

Precisely! In the show Andi kept on saying that she like a MAN! One who can take charge. When Chris went for the kiss, the scene with Josh and the aphrodisiac, the scene with Nick and all when he came to her hotel room. This is a woman who wants be be "dominated" in a sense. When Nick was mumbling as he usually does in the LCD, Andi got frustrated and she was like...I want to go snorkeling.

Why do you think as well she let Marcus go? It was because he was too needy - he didn't take charge enough. The same thing with Brian, in the cooking date he didn't step up to the plate. Andi wants a man to take control, one who can challenge her. And that's our man Josh. Since they came back to ATL it's clear that he's in charge of the relationship now, and Andi's okay with it. Why else would she run everything by him before she makes a decision?

[stuckinsc]

If they wait until May 9th, great, awesome.  

I have stated this, and will ask directly, since I don't listen to their interviews.  Is Andi going to be a housewife?

If not, then I do have a concern.  For most couples, we actually don't get to spend 24/7 together.  We aren't joined at the hip and we deal with other people in the real world.  I don't see her going to real life.  I see her hiding in a happy, safe place with Josh. If she is able to do that forever.  Great.  Get married.  If she has to go out into the real world without Josh holding her hand all the time, then perhaps it would be good for them to get to know how they work through those times too.

Let me state, this is not just for Josh and Andi.  I was glad that Sean and Cat wait as long as they did.  They took some time to live real life after DWTS and move to Dallas and make sure that real life was going to work.  Same for Des and Chris, I am glad they waited at least a year. 

Just my opinion, but the butterflies eventually go away, in almost every relationship.  It is good to get past those butterflies before you tie the knot. 

Can you still make work, even if you are still in those butterflies when you get married? Sure, but since I ended up divorced and hated that failure in my life, I don't wish for anyone to have a bad marriage, I would rather they do all they can before they get married.  Believe it or not, this is me wanting the best fore Josh and Andi, not the worst.

[aviej]

If they wait until May 9th, great, awesome.  

I have stated this, and will ask directly, since I don't listen to their interviews.  Is Andi going to be a housewife?

If not, then I do have a concern.  For most couples, we actually don't get to spend 24/7 together.  We aren't joined at the hip and we deal with other people in the real world.  I don't see her going to real life.  I see her hiding in a happy, safe place with Josh. If she is able to do that forever.  Great.  Get married.  If she has to go out into the real world without Josh holding her hand all the time, then perhaps it would be good for them to get to know how they work through those times too.

Let me state, this is not just for Josh and Andi.  I was glad that Sean and Cat wait as long as they did.  They took some time to live real life after DWTS and move to Dallas and make sure that real life was going to work.  Same for Des and Chris, I am glad they waited at least a year. 

Just my opinion, but the butterflies eventually go away, in almost every relationship.  It is good to get past those butterflies before you tie the knot. 

Can you still make work, even if you are still in those butterflies when you get married? Sure, but since I ended up divorced and hated that failure in my life, I don't wish for anyone to have a bad marriage, I would rather they do all they can before they get married.  Believe it or not, this is me wanting the best fore Josh and Andi, not the worst.

Let me ask you this then. By putting a time frame of one year, can one safely say that the butterflies will go away then - after a year? They have been together for four months, surely it hasn't been all butterflies all of the time.

[charriotoffire]

I've actually wondered if Andi wanting to leave Atlanta had something to do with the things that lady tweeted Nick about and then soon deleted. That is, about her bad reputation in the legal scene there. I mean if we were to believe her, then I can see Andi wanting a change of scenery. She kind of seems like the type to run away from problems IMO. And she was so quick to quit her job that she worked so hard for.

Her credibility and reputation is shot because of how she conducted herself in this show.   She has shown no humility, tact or compassion and I'm not even talking about Nick.  She should really hang on to Josh because he has already suffered all sorts of humiliation just to be with her.   Her saving grace was  there was a doofus at the end who proposed to her.  Everything is forgiven if you managed a "happy ending" no matter how ingenious, pretentious and cruel you are in dismissing your relationships.  

I remembered what Josh' mom said to him during the hometowns,  that for the longest time he has put others before himself for so long and now its his time to to put himself first.   Now he ends up with a self absorbed brat who can't take any kind of opposition or negative feedback.  This is why she cannot be with Nick because he has the nerve to challenge her.  Andi needs someone who will let her wear the pants and as long as Josh is docile and stay under her thumb, there will be no trouble.  

I have to apologize to Andi's fans... but really I have never seen a Bachelorette treat people so bad and got away with it.  I just feel that Juan Pablo and other Bachelors were punished so much by the media and fans for being honest and truthful but they werent unkind or cruel or dismissive toward people as Andi was.   I just feel sorry for Josh he deserved much much better.

Andi fan here :WAVEY: No need to apologize, it's your opinion. But would you really use the words - humility, tact or compassion - to describe a successful lawyer?  Even if your assessment of her personality was correct, I don't think that would negatively  influence her reputation as a lawyer.

I have only watched Nick's dates with Andi once and have a genuine question. When did Nick seriously challenge Andi (before she broke up with him)? I don't recall that happening, but again, I didn't re-watch their dates.

I have also some good news for you. Josh seems to be very happy with Andi. And it looks like he is quite often the one wearing pants in their relationship, from what I've gathered from their latest radio interviews  

First off thanks for understanding my stance about Andi and I still want to apologize if I am saying unpleasant things about her.  

I use those words (humility tact or compassion) not to describe her being a lawyer or a reality tv personality but just just as  a human being who is about to 'break up' with someone or describing someone who is not a native english speaker.    Everybody goes by intuition and general feelings of  impression when dealing with other people specially educated professionals.  Granting we do not expect 'kindness' or 'class' from a scrupulous car salesmen or a rotten politician but still they need to at least not be regarded as a joke so people can still have a high regard of them.  

Do you want your friendly neighborhood  prosecutor to be a reality tv fame(ho)  who slept with two men in a span of days and openly made fun of a Venezuelan because he can't say "It's Okay" ya'll in a midwestern accent?   I wouldnt trust Andi to balance my checkbook much less prosecute criminals in any country.   If she cannot be fair to a  reality tv 'lover' or whatever you call Juan Pabs and Nick,  I wouldnt trust her to keep the peace in my neighborhood.   Honestly she's now a joke.  She'll probably better off selling a toygun that doubles as a squeegee in home tv shopping network.

Regarding Josh,  he will continue to be a butt of joke no  matter what he does.   What happened to him Andi and Nick is so emasculating that this is gonna be his reputation.  He won a wife from a dating game show who cannot respect what he had with her that she needs to sexually test drive the other man before she soils his bed.  

Her hubris and arrogance led to Nick spilling the beans.  A little humility and kindness could have gone a long way.

[Ash2214]

If they wait until May 9th, great, awesome.  

I have stated this, and will ask directly, since I don't listen to their interviews.  Is Andi going to be a housewife?

If not, then I do have a concern.  For most couples, we actually don't get to spend 24/7 together.  We aren't joined at the hip and we deal with other people in the real world.  I don't see her going to real life.  I see her hiding in a happy, safe place with Josh. If she is able to do that forever.  Great.  Get married.  If she has to go out into the real world without Josh holding her hand all the time, then perhaps it would be good for them to get to know how they work through those times too.

Let me state, this is not just for Josh and Andi.  I was glad that Sean and Cat wait as long as they did.  They took some time to live real life after DWTS and move to Dallas and make sure that real life was going to work.  Same for Des and Chris, I am glad they waited at least a year. 

Just my opinion, but the butterflies eventually go away, in almost every relationship.  It is good to get past those butterflies before you tie the knot. 

Can you still make work, even if you are still in those butterflies when you get married? Sure, but since I ended up divorced and hated that failure in my life, I don't wish for anyone to have a bad marriage, I would rather they do all they can before they get married.  Believe it or not, this is me wanting the best fore Josh and Andi, not the worst.

Right. This shouldn't just be for Andi and Josh. Sean and Catherine spent almost 6 months out in LA while he was on another television show and to this day neither of them have conventional 9-5 jobs. That doesn't mean anything. I think they're a great couple. I suppose I'm just a bit confused as to why it's such a heavy topic for you about them not rushing into anything quickly since they're not experiencing the real world together all because she's not currently working. We don't know them personally and they have yet to state really anything in regards to a wedding or moving at a quick pace.

[stuckinsc]

Wow, I give.  One year may not make a difference.  They can get married tomorrow.  Enjoy.  Again, not everything is a criticism, some is just a discussion.

Again, since I am being reminded that they should marry whenever, do we know what Andi is doing long term? 

Everyone is saying they are in the real world and have been much more than any other Bachelorette. I tend ot disagree, as my all time fav, Ashley actually went back to being a dentist in training and seeing patients, etc.  The stuff she would be doing in the real world, not just spending all of her time with JP. That to me is real world love.

If Andi can always just be with Josh and focus on Josh, great.  Perfect.  If Andi has to interact with others and Josh may not be there all the time to make it better, how do they get through that.  I know in the real world, there is conflict a lot.  I would think in the legal field you get even more conflict.  We have not seen Andi handle conflict well.

Can anyone anwser that actual question? What is Andi planning to do with her life? 

Truly, I won't care when they get married, I will just wish them good luck.

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