Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[ironcat]

I always thought his point was that he relied on her actions since she couldn't express her feelings, therefore since she knew he was in love and all in, her actions led him him on. He believes you should be honest so that both are on the same page or at least aware before sex. I think Nick has casual sex. JMHO, partly based on his quirky dad's F-bombs and siblings comments. His family seems pretty open with sex.

I think the precedent was set by Reid on this. He really left no doubt and I think it was the exact same problem. Jillian's actions led him on, thus his feelings for her grew deeper and resulted in more confusion and hurt.

No doubt she led him on, that's what every lead is required to do, and any contestant who doesn't want to run the risk of being led on should definitely not sign up for this show.  My comments were in response to the statement that Nick felt taken advantage of by Andi, which is not the same as being led on by her IMO.

The lead led him on with sex in this case. I sure hope that's not a requirement. I don't see much difference between leading him on with the sex and taking advantage of him. When a man does that to a woman, there's no distinction.

I disagree. If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't. Leading on, sure. Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her? We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

[Sprite]

I disagree.  If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't.  Leading on, sure.  Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her?  We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

[stuckinsc]

I disagree.  If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't.  Leading on, sure.  Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her?  We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Sprite, great post. Let me say one more thing. In this dynamic where the lead is not allowed to express their feelings back to the other person, it makes this dynamic even more tricky and in my view makes the lead even more responsible. I think some have just had sex in the FS. Bob sure did, even Andrew who I loved slept with his F3. So it happens, I am not unrealistic. But in each of these cases and even JPG with Clare last year, the other person had not said I love you. To me it does change things. If you sleep with someone who tells you they love you and you aren't allowed to say it back, then to me by the act you are saying I love you back. If you don't that is manipulative IMO. This wouldn't happen in real life, since you can express your feelings in real life, but on this strange show having sex with someone who tells you they love you implies that you have those feelings too and it is the leads responsibility because they have the power in this situation. This true whether the lead is male or female.

I think one of the key differences between this situation and most we have seen is that the lead claimed to never love the other person. I don't know of any other lead who came out so set to put their F2 down or deny an feeling toward their F2 as Andi. Many ask why Nick said what he did? To me, I would ask why was Andi so cold and unfeeling towards Nick and yes you can compare her to other leads for this. As many have pointed out, Jilly was much warmer to Reid. Ashley too was very compassionate to Ben. I wish Nick had never discussed them having sex, just as I wish that Andi had just come out and acknowledged that she did have feelings for Nick without having to say "I never loved you and I never said I loved you". Those words are hurtful in any situation where someone has loved someone else. Even if true, you can state things with much more kindness and compassion.

[Lucas15]

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

I agree that Nick could have been taken advantage of in this situation but it's also true that Nick could have taken advantage of Andi as well (though any advantage Nick might have gained isn't the same as any advantage Andi might have gained) and it could also be true that no one took advantage of anyone; Nick and Andi both took certain (but different) risks and each had to accept those risks.

The only clues we have about how Nick viewed this is what he's said in various interviews about it and in none of them have I seen Nick express that he feels he was taken advantage of and he's had lots of opportunities to express that if that was how he felt.

The 7/31/14 interview Nick did with Reality TV World (that's a link to the interview which is the same one that ironcat has referred to) is IMHO one of the best interviews simply because the interviewer asked Nick some tough questions and his answers sometimes went in a different direction than some of his other answers in other interviews. Here's one example where Nick could have expressed that he felt taken advantage of if he felt that way - but he didn't:

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

He did make some assumptions even though he knew the risk in assuming anything:

One thing I said to her was, "There was that moment when I told her I loved her in the ocean and her initial response was to throw her head back in frustration and say, 'I wish I could say things back.'" And I mentioned that to her and she nodded her head "yes" like she remembers that moment. It was just like, "I know you're not suppose to assume," but ...

This show just doesn't present the opportunities for the lead and any of the contestants to truly be on the same page (at least not until the final rose) and anyone who goes on it has to be willing to take that gamble and accept the consequences of guessing wrong.

[Lucas15]

I think one of the key differences between this situation and most we have seen is that the lead claimed to never love the other person.  I don't know of any other lead who came out so set to put their F2 down or deny an feeling toward their F2 as Andi.

I think JPG was in a somewhat similar situation on his season where he told his F2 not only that he didn't love her but that he didn't even "know" her but loved ****** her.

Many ask why Nick said what he did? To me, I would ask why was Andi so cold and unfeeling towards Nick and yes you can compare her to other leads for this.  As many have pointed out, Jilly was much warmer to Reid.  Ashley too was very compassionate to Ben.  I wish Nick had never discussed them having sex, just as I wish that Andi had just come out and acknowledged that she did have feelings for Nick without having to say "I never loved you and I never said I loved you".  Those words are hurtful in any situation where someone has loved someone else.  Even if true, you can state things with much more kindness and compassion.

I wish she hadn't said that either but she didn't volunteer this information - she was answering a very specific question CH asked her "Did you ever love Nick, or parts of Nick" so she either had to make something up or tell the truth (as of July 28 when she was asked that question). She did however acknowledge that she had feelings for Nick and that she felt they had a great relationship, just that she had a greater relationship with Josh.

Interestingly Nick actually admitted that he saw that when he watched the show back (from his 7/31 Reality TV World interview):

But, you know, after realizing that she ended up with Josh, it was clearly a connection.

And she made it very clear that Josh was someone that was her type and she was very drawn to him. And watching it back, it was obvious that she was very drawn to him. Those two had a level of comfort that, in that short period of time, I don't think there was any way for us to match that.

With that being said, watching it back, I remembered our relationship and how it was, and I felt like watching it back, that's how I remembered it. It was just two very different relationships and she just chose one that she thought was best suited for her.

[Guest]

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

I agree that Nick could have been taken advantage of in this situation but it's also true that Nick could have taken advantage of Andi as well (though any advantage Nick might have gained isn't the same as any advantage Andi might have gained) and it could also be true that no one took advantage of anyone; Nick and Andi both took certain (but different) risks and each had to accept those risks.

The only clues we have about how Nick viewed this is what he's said in various interviews about it and in none of them have I seen Nick express that he feels he was taken advantage of and he's had lots of opportunities to express that if that was how he felt.

The 7/31/14 interview Nick did with Reality TV World (that's a link to the interview which is the same one that ironcat has referred to) is IMHO one of the best interviews simply because the interviewer asked Nick some tough questions and his answers sometimes went in a different direction than some of his other answers in other interviews. Here's one example where Nick could have expressed that he felt taken advantage of if he felt that way - but he didn't:

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

He did make some assumptions even though he knew the risk in assuming anything:

One thing I said to her was, "There was that moment when I told her I loved her in the ocean and her initial response was to throw her head back in frustration and say, 'I wish I could say things back.'" And I mentioned that to her and she nodded her head "yes" like she remembers that moment. It was just like, "I know you're not suppose to assume," but ...

This show just doesn't present the opportunities for the lead and any of the contestants to truly be on the same page (at least not until the final rose) and anyone who goes on it has to be willing to take that gamble and accept the consequences of guessing wrong.

Yes, and how can we possibly know that Andi's response would have been that she loved him too??? She could have wanted to say "I'm very attracted to you, but I'm not quite there yet!". Thee are a lot of assumptions being made as to what she wanted to reply back, and Nick, being Nick, could have easily misinterpreted what she was thinking.

[Lucas15]

Yes, and how can we possibly know that Andi's response would have been that she loved him too??? She could have wanted to say "I'm very attracted to you, but I'm not quite there yet!". There are a lot of assumptions being made as to what she wanted to reply back, and Nick, being Nick, could have easily misinterpreted what she was thinking.

Sure. That "answer" is really a non-answer that is taught to all the leads (which is why it should sound very familiar - Andi is not the first lead to have said that) and is intentionally crafted to allow the contestant to let their imagination run wild and interpret it as meaning whatever it is they want to hear (and Nick is not the first contentant to have been mislead either). The producers do the rest by trying to fill in the blanks in the contestant's mind as to what the lead really meant, and the producers lie through their teeth with a smile on their face.

[albean99]

In reality this is another twilight zone episode: Loop Me
Reminds me of the Gunslinger series.

   I can't find it in myself to care about this now (yes I know I'm a mod and am supposed to pay attention). It's almost the BIP finale and more importantly for me, the MAFS finale. And football's started.  

[jlccaz]

In reality this is another twilight zone episode: Loop Me
Reminds me of the Gunslinger series.

   I can't find it in myself to care about this now (yes I know I'm a mod and am supposed to pay attention). It's almost the BIP finale and more importantly for me, the MAFS finale. And football's started.  

Ha! You Crack me up. Sort of like after I took the Bar Exam and some chick wanted to talk over the questions and answers on the train between Baltimore and DC. Goodness what's the point. What's done is done! Nick seems happy!

[mindless]

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

With regard to the bit you bolded, I definitely think he meant that he didn't expect sex to happen in the FS. He went there thinking they'd just get to know each other without cameras in their faces, but then one thing led to another and she expressed no hesitation, which led him to think she was just as in love as he was. That's why he mentioned it at ATFR while clarifying his question, which she'd immediately called out as an insult.

[Sprite]

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

With regard to the bit you bolded, I definitely think he meant that he didn't expect sex to happen in the FS. He went there thinking they'd just get to know each other without cameras in their faces, but then one thing led to another and she expressed no hesitation, which led him to think she was just as in love as he was. That's why he mentioned it at ATFR while clarifying his question, which she'd immediately called out as an insult.  

That is how I took it as well.

[Lucas15]

With regard to the bit you bolded, I definitely think he meant that he didn't expect sex to happen in the FS. He went there thinking they'd just get to know each other without cameras in their faces, but then one thing led to another and she expressed no hesitation, which led him to think she was just as in love as he was. That's why he mentioned it at ATFR while clarifying his question, which she'd immediately called out as an insult.  

You maybe right or wrong - neither of us really knows how it actually happened or how Nick felt about it. The discussion point was if Nick felt he had been taken advantage of and I haven't seen anything he's ever said to suggest he felt that way. He made another statement to Nancy Odell in an ET Online interview where he said:

"It wasn't just about the sex. It was more -- to me -- about the intimacy ... It wasn't like she owed me anything because that happened."

And I don't think that's indicative that he felt taken advantage of. Maybe he really did but he just hasn't ever said he felt that way.

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