Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Guest]

@Lucas I'm kidding about Courtney. I said that because she wrote the tell all book so maybe she'd spill. I've just read some excerpts. Her FS night was a wild one. Perhaps if Nick had known how Andi felt he would have opted for the "reverse cowgirl" like Ben did.   I believe he feels being led on with sex is taking advantage, just as a woman would describe, he said as much in the piece he wrote for Sean's blog. I just don't think that was his focus. Again, there's something we don't know. It was how she had sex with him that got to him. Whatever was included in the "intimacy" and "fiance stuff" moments led him farther into this and caused more hurt and confusion for him.

Thanks for the link. I never saw that one. Not to hop back on the conspiracy theories, but this line could also be about Andi knowing Josh before the show. There was a deleted scene from MTA with Nick S. that I thought may have alluded to it as well.

"Those two had a level of comfort that, in that short period of time, I don't think there was any way for us to match that. "

[SueSt]

I agree that Nick could have been taken advantage of in this situation but it's also true that Nick could have taken advantage of Andi as well (though any advantage Nick might have gained isn't the same as any advantage Andi might have gained) and it could also be true that no one took advantage of anyone; Nick and Andi both took certain (but different) risks and each had to accept those risks.

The only clues we have about how Nick viewed this is what he's said in various interviews about it and in none of them have I seen Nick express that he feels he was taken advantage of and he's had lots of opportunities to express that if that was how he felt.

The 7/31/14 interview Nick did with Reality TV World (that's a link to the interview which is the same one that ironcat has referred to) is IMHO one of the best interviews simply because the interviewer asked Nick some tough questions and his answers sometimes went in a different direction than some of his other answers in other interviews. Here's one example where Nick could have expressed that he felt taken advantage of if he felt that way - but he didn't:



Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

He did make some assumptions even though he knew the risk in assuming anything:



This show just doesn't present the opportunities for the lead and any of the contestants to truly be on the same page (at least not until the final rose) and anyone who goes on it has to be willing to take that gamble and accept the consequences of guessing wrong.

Yes, and how can we possibly know that Andi's response would have been that she loved him too??? She could have wanted to say "I'm very attracted to you, but I'm not quite there yet!". Thee are a lot of assumptions being made as to what she wanted to reply back, and Nick, being Nick, could have easily misinterpreted what she was thinking.

The way around saying something back is simply to kiss them. He was clearly trying to describe her sigh, expression, (throwing her head back) exasperation at that moment which led him to the conclusion she meant I love you. Nick doesn't know what we know. She was in the ocean without a mic, therefore like leads before her, could have told him anything. Didn't Brooks and Des even have an agreement to say what they felt and let the editors deal with it? I have no problem saying Nick shouldn't have said what he did at ATFR (I cringe at all 3 of their parents/grand parents watching that) but Andi made her share of mistakes too.

I missed that reality world interview. I'll have to go see if I can find it. I always wondered why he didn't see Josh as a threat. I wondered if Andi had told him he wasn't because he seemed like the obvious choice from day 1. Did Andi ever say anything around any of the other guys or Nick about jocks being her type? I can't recall. And let's not just write it off that Nick is arrogant.. obviously Josh is a big, good looking, guy. Even if he saw a sluggish, bad temper, he saw another side of Josh, the one Andi was seeing at rose ceremonies and on group dates, so very puzzling that he didn't worry about Josh. I'll always wonder is Andi wasn't going even farther than we know to make sure Nick was confident. We know she was purposely giving him all the first as she mentions it on the LCD, wouldn't there have been plenty of private words whispered while waiting for the next shot to be set up. It takes forever to move the cameras and check the lighting etc. They spend as much time standing around waiting as they do filming. We need Courtney to date Nick for a few weeks so she can spill the rest of the story for us.    I just really think there is more to it.

I just rewatched the Billy Bush interview yesterday. Nick recounted that the morning of the FS after he told her he loved her and they made love, when he was feeling vulnerable and insecure, Andi told him to trust her... I mean... in what context could she say that and justify not choosing him at the end?

[Lucas15]

@Lucas I'm kidding about Courtney

I knew that and took it exactly the way you meant it; my tongue was deeply extended into my cheek when I commented about Courtney.

Not to hop back on the conspiracy theories, but this line could also be about Andi knowing Josh before the show. There was a deleted scene from MTA with Nick S. that I thought may have alluded to it as well.

"Those two had a level of comfort that, in that short period of time, I don't think there was any way for us to match that. "

It's very possible that Nick was alluding to the conspiracy theory that they knew each other before the show. I'm not sure I subscribe to it as I think there's other ways to explain the attraction without it, and I believe that if they had known each other we would have heard about it; somewhere somehow someone would know and if someone knows, someone talks.

I can understand how Nick might suspect Andi and Josh knew each other and I can easily understand that they knew of each other. Josh knew of Andi - most likely from the Jezebel article in 2013 and as I recall went on the show only to meet Andi. And if you look at Andi's list of wants in that Jezebel article, Josh checks almost every one of them. So it's not hard for me to see a very quick connection forming even without any prior meeting - if nothing else the fact that both of them were from Atlanta and both want to stay in Atlanta is going to draw them to each other and add a bit of chemistry and you have what happened.

[SueSt]

Nick said while watching the show he could see Andi's strong connection to Josh, but Nick felt like that still couldn't negate his strong connection with her. I'm guessing for whatever reason Nick just couldn't comprehend that Andi could have had two great connections with her F2 guys, but just fell in love with one or felt more strongly about the other. As for during filming, I think it's as simple as just focusing on your relationship with the lead, but Nick kind of took it to a further extent. For example, we heard Josh say numerous times that he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he didn't know the connections or conversations she was having with other guys while with Nick, he never saw a single guy as a threat, unless he was just saying those things. However, he did appear to be pretty arrogant up until the very end.

This is just a general comment and not directed at you specifically Ash.... So Neither Nick nor Josh really knew the connections or conversations she was having with other guys and focused on their own relationships... doesn't sound too different.  Not sure why it makes one arrogant and not the other.
Nick and Josh offered very different types of relationships... but I also don't think it was off the mark for Nick to believe that Andi would choose him considering the things she was saying and the way she was responding.  Their relationship was uniquely special to him and he believed it was to her as well.  The fact that she decided to choose a different life; one she felt would suit her better is her choice...

[SueSt]

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Great post Sprite.  I don't think we have to know exactly what happened between Nick and Andi.  Fact is, Nick felt very hurt by Andi's actions and she didn't refute Nick's statements or his memories of that night.  I think the words 'taken advantage of' may be hard to interpret, but Andi definitely disregarded Nick's feelings or, as I believe, was falling in love or in love with Nick and is changing her story after the fact.    

I know it's just your belief, but I figured I would comment on it. Andi and Nick have both said quite a few times that Andi never told Nick she loved him and never said so in private moments. There are many examples of the lead telling contestants how they feel about them in private moments and Juan Pablo is a great example with Clare. From everything that went down on the last two episodes of the season and everything that is coming out post show, it seems to be pretty clear that Andi told Josh he was the one or at the very least strongly alluded to it in the fantasy suite.

Well we don't know that for sure whether Andi told Josh ILY or not, but regardless, from Nick's perspective Andi SHOWED him she loved him by sleeping with him.

[SueSt]

Sprite, great post.  Let me say one more thing.  In this dynamic where the lead is not allowed to express their feelings back to the other person, it makes this dynamic even more tricky and in my view makes the lead even more responsible.  I think some have just had sex in the FS.  Bob sure did, even Andrew who I loved slept with his F3.  So it happens, I am not unrealistic.  But in each of these cases and even JPG with Clare last year, the other person had not said I love you.  To me it does change things.  If you sleep with someone who tells you they love you and you aren't allowed to say it back, then to me by the act you are saying I love you back.  If you don't that is manipulative IMO.  This wouldn't happen in real life, since you can express your feelings in real life, but on this strange show having sex with someone who tells you they love you implies that you have those feelings too and it is the leads responsibility because they have the power in this situation.  This true whether the lead is male or female.

I think one of the key differences between this situation and most we have seen is that the lead claimed to never love the other person.  I don't know of any other lead who came out so set to put their F2 down or deny an feeling toward their F2 as Andi.  Many ask why Nick said what he did? To me, I would ask why was Andi so cold and unfeeling towards Nick and yes you can compare her to other leads for this.  As many have pointed out, Jilly was much warmer to Reid.  Ashley too was very compassionate to Ben.  I wish Nick had never discussed them having sex, just as I wish that Andi had just come out and acknowledged that she did have feelings for Nick without having to say "I never loved you and I never said I loved you".  Those words are hurtful in any situation where someone has loved someone else.  Even if true, you can state things with much more kindness and compassion.

Stuckinsc, I think you captured so well what bothered me the most... Andi's lack of compassion for a man that was clearly STILL in love with her and really hurting was despicable!

Except she did admit to having feelings for Nick and meaning every word she said about him on the show. She also went out to say that if she were to do it all over again, she would still have the same great relationship with Nick that she did the first time around. She said she never loved him and she fell in love with someone else. Someone else was more right. It's months later and I still just don't understand how people can't understand that. She didn't pick Nick. She chose someone else and was engaged to him. Nick tried to see her on more than one occasion. He wrote her a letter that basically asked her to change her mind. Reid didn't chase Jillian down post show. Ben didn't chase Ashley don't post show. They're different circumstances.

I'm not placing blame just on Nick or just on Andi. They're both at fault for different things, but I cannot understand that hate Andi has garnered because of her actions on the ATFR. I can understanding disliking her for sleeping with Nick, but her actions with Nick on the ATFR should have been expected. She was engaged to someone else, seemingly very happy, and she had to face a guy that she broke up with months ago that she had some feelings for that was still trying to win her back in different ways and heck, even spoiled the season two days after filming was complete. Not an easy situation.  

Saying that she had a great relationship does not equal compassion. Andi's demeanor suggested she found Nick to be an annoyance, nothing more.... and was incredibly hurtful to him and distasteful to me. I mean I get that it's hard to break up with someone, but honestly (and I really liked Andi during the season), I thought her explanation and certainly her demeanor were a total fail.

I don't think you can say Nick was trying to win her back; he said he wasn't trying to win her back, but was looking for understanding and closure. He couldn't understand (and neither can I) that she would throw what they had away.

[Ash2214]

Nick said while watching the show he could see Andi's strong connection to Josh, but Nick felt like that still couldn't negate his strong connection with her. I'm guessing for whatever reason Nick just couldn't comprehend that Andi could have had two great connections with her F2 guys, but just fell in love with one or felt more strongly about the other. As for during filming, I think it's as simple as just focusing on your relationship with the lead, but Nick kind of took it to a further extent. For example, we heard Josh say numerous times that he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he didn't know the connections or conversations she was having with other guys while with Nick, he never saw a single guy as a threat, unless he was just saying those things. However, he did appear to be pretty arrogant up until the very end.

This is just a general comment and not directed at you specifically Ash.... So Neither Nick nor Josh really knew the connections or conversations she was having with other guys and focused on their own relationships... doesn't sound too different.  Not sure why it makes one arrogant and not the other.
Nick and Josh offered very different types of relationships... but I also don't think it was off the mark for Nick to believe that Andi would choose him considering the things she was saying and the way she was responding.  Their relationship was uniquely special to him and he believed it was to her as well.  The fact that she decided to choose a different life; one she felt would suit her better is her choice...

I think you're missing my point, Sue. Josh never said any of the things Nick did. Josh would always say he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he never knew how she felt about the other men, which means he acknowledged it was possible he wouldn't be the chosen because there was a possibility she would fall in love with someone else. With Nick, he rarely acknowledged the other men and if he did it was to say negative things about them and how they couldn't compare to the relationship he had with Andi.

I think both guys had reasons to believe that they had great relationships with Andi, but my point was that while both were confident and had reasons to be, Nick took it to a further extent and felt that he was the only match for Andi whereas Josh felt confident, but knew he might not be the one - at least that's what his words meant on the show.

[Ash2214]

Stuckinsc, I think you captured so well what bothered me the most... Andi's lack of compassion for a man that was clearly STILL in love with her and really hurting was despicable!

Except she did admit to having feelings for Nick and meaning every word she said about him on the show. She also went out to say that if she were to do it all over again, she would still have the same great relationship with Nick that she did the first time around. She said she never loved him and she fell in love with someone else. Someone else was more right. It's months later and I still just don't understand how people can't understand that. She didn't pick Nick. She chose someone else and was engaged to him. Nick tried to see her on more than one occasion. He wrote her a letter that basically asked her to change her mind. Reid didn't chase Jillian down post show. Ben didn't chase Ashley don't post show. They're different circumstances.

I'm not placing blame just on Nick or just on Andi. They're both at fault for different things, but I cannot understand that hate Andi has garnered because of her actions on the ATFR. I can understanding disliking her for sleeping with Nick, but her actions with Nick on the ATFR should have been expected. She was engaged to someone else, seemingly very happy, and she had to face a guy that she broke up with months ago that she had some feelings for that was still trying to win her back in different ways and heck, even spoiled the season two days after filming was complete. Not an easy situation.  

Saying that she had a great relationship does not equal compassion.  Andi's demeanor suggested she found Nick to be an annoyance, nothing more.... and was incredibly hurtful to him and distasteful to me.  I mean I get that it's hard to break up with someone, but honestly (and I really liked Andi during the season), I thought her explanation and certainly her demeanor were a total fail.
 
I don't think you can say Nick was trying to win her back; he said he wasn't trying to win her back, but was looking for understanding and closure.  He couldn't understand (and neither can I) that she would throw what they had away.

There are lines Nick's letter where he openly asks her or questions her if she changed her mind and how he felt that she took the easy route and made the wrong decision. I would say that's pretty much asking and wondering if there's a possibility of a second chance for the two of them.

[SueSt]

Nick said while watching the show he could see Andi's strong connection to Josh, but Nick felt like that still couldn't negate his strong connection with her. I'm guessing for whatever reason Nick just couldn't comprehend that Andi could have had two great connections with her F2 guys, but just fell in love with one or felt more strongly about the other. As for during filming, I think it's as simple as just focusing on your relationship with the lead, but Nick kind of took it to a further extent. For example, we heard Josh say numerous times that he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he didn't know the connections or conversations she was having with other guys while with Nick, he never saw a single guy as a threat, unless he was just saying those things. However, he did appear to be pretty arrogant up until the very end.

This is just a general comment and not directed at you specifically Ash.... So Neither Nick nor Josh really knew the connections or conversations she was having with other guys and focused on their own relationships... doesn't sound too different.  Not sure why it makes one arrogant and not the other.
Nick and Josh offered very different types of relationships... but I also don't think it was off the mark for Nick to believe that Andi would choose him considering the things she was saying and the way she was responding.  Their relationship was uniquely special to him and he believed it was to her as well.  The fact that she decided to choose a different life; one she felt would suit her better is her choice...

I think you're missing my point, Sue. Josh never said any of the things Nick did. Josh would always say he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he never knew how she felt about the other men, which means he acknowledged it was possible he wouldn't be the chosen because there was a possibility she would fall in love with someone else. With Nick, he rarely acknowledged the other men and if he did it was to say negative things about them and how they couldn't compare to the relationship he had with Andi.

I think both guys had reasons to believe that they had great relationships with Andi, but my point was that while both were confident and had reasons to be, Nick took it to a further extent and felt that he was the only match for Andi whereas Josh felt confident, but knew he might not be the one - at least that's what his words meant on the show.  

Thanks for clarifying; I see your point.

[SueSt]

Except she did admit to having feelings for Nick and meaning every word she said about him on the show. She also went out to say that if she were to do it all over again, she would still have the same great relationship with Nick that she did the first time around. She said she never loved him and she fell in love with someone else. Someone else was more right. It's months later and I still just don't understand how people can't understand that. She didn't pick Nick. She chose someone else and was engaged to him. Nick tried to see her on more than one occasion. He wrote her a letter that basically asked her to change her mind. Reid didn't chase Jillian down post show. Ben didn't chase Ashley don't post show. They're different circumstances.

I'm not placing blame just on Nick or just on Andi. They're both at fault for different things, but I cannot understand that hate Andi has garnered because of her actions on the ATFR. I can understanding disliking her for sleeping with Nick, but her actions with Nick on the ATFR should have been expected. She was engaged to someone else, seemingly very happy, and she had to face a guy that she broke up with months ago that she had some feelings for that was still trying to win her back in different ways and heck, even spoiled the season two days after filming was complete. Not an easy situation.  

Saying that she had a great relationship does not equal compassion.  Andi's demeanor suggested she found Nick to be an annoyance, nothing more.... and was incredibly hurtful to him and distasteful to me.  I mean I get that it's hard to break up with someone, but honestly (and I really liked Andi during the season), I thought her explanation and certainly her demeanor were a total fail.
 
I don't think you can say Nick was trying to win her back; he said he wasn't trying to win her back, but was looking for understanding and closure.  He couldn't understand (and neither can I) that she would throw what they had away.

I really don't feel like it, but if you would like, I can bring over various lines from Nick's letter where he openly asks her or questions her if she changed her mind and how he felt that she took the easy route and made the wrong decision. I would say that's pretty much asking and wondering if there's a possibility of a second chance for the two of them.

Not necessary. Without going back to read or quote the letter... I think Nick was laying out his feelings about why the relationship was so uniquely special to him.... that it was not the easy road, etc... and saying that it's what he wanted and thought she wanted. And he says at the end that if she changed her mind, he didn't know if they could make it but that he would turn his life upside down to try and make it work. I mean these are all pleas and open invitations to engage... and it's a fine line, and I can see why you'd think he was trying to win her back... but I took it to be his attempt to put the depth of his feelings into words. He loved her in a way he had never loved someone before and needed to put it out there in order to move on.

[stuckinsc]

I think during taping TPTB purposely kept Josh and Nick from being on the same dates.  They were only on one date together, CT and the basketball game and Josh was not there for the nighttime portion of that date.

True, Josh realized that she may still have a great connection with someone else and Nick did not.  Only reason I can think for that is that Nick was so hesitant and with the amount of time and words and actions Andi spent to reassure him, he felt she wouldn't do that if he wasn't special. Unlike Nick, Josh had no hesitation, he was all about Andi right out of the limo and it was only Andi having to convince herself.

[Lucas15]

I think during taping TPTB purposely kept Josh and Nick from being on the same dates.  They were only on one date together, CT and the basketball game and Josh was not there for the nighttime portion of that date.

True, Josh realized that she may still have a great connection with someone else and Nick did not.  Only reason I can think for that is that Nick was so hesitant and with the amount of time and words and actions Andi spent to reassure him, he felt she wouldn't do that if he wasn't special. Unlike Nick, Josh had no hesitation, he was all about Andi right out of the limo and it was only Andi having to convince herself.

ITA with the bolded and that's not too surprising; the bizarre format of the show wants an overly confident F2 who gets heartbroken at being rejected and a doubtful F1 who gets joyously surprised at getting the final rose, and the best way to do that is if neither sees much about the other's relationship with the lead. That way they are more susceptible to producer - and lead - manipulation.

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