Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Guest]

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

I agree that Nick could have been taken advantage of in this situation but it's also true that Nick could have taken advantage of Andi as well (though any advantage Nick might have gained isn't the same as any advantage Andi might have gained) and it could also be true that no one took advantage of anyone; Nick and Andi both took certain (but different) risks and each had to accept those risks.

The only clues we have about how Nick viewed this is what he's said in various interviews about it and in none of them have I seen Nick express that he feels he was taken advantage of and he's had lots of opportunities to express that if that was how he felt.

The 7/31/14 interview Nick did with Reality TV World (that's a link to the interview which is the same one that ironcat has referred to) is IMHO one of the best interviews simply because the interviewer asked Nick some tough questions and his answers sometimes went in a different direction than some of his other answers in other interviews. Here's one example where Nick could have expressed that he felt taken advantage of if he felt that way - but he didn't:

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

He did make some assumptions even though he knew the risk in assuming anything:

One thing I said to her was, "There was that moment when I told her I loved her in the ocean and her initial response was to throw her head back in frustration and say, 'I wish I could say things back.'" And I mentioned that to her and she nodded her head "yes" like she remembers that moment. It was just like, "I know you're not suppose to assume," but ...

This show just doesn't present the opportunities for the lead and any of the contestants to truly be on the same page (at least not until the final rose) and anyone who goes on it has to be willing to take that gamble and accept the consequences of guessing wrong.

Yes, and how can we possibly know that Andi's response would have been that she loved him too??? She could have wanted to say "I'm very attracted to you, but I'm not quite there yet!". Thee are a lot of assumptions being made as to what she wanted to reply back, and Nick, being Nick, could have easily misinterpreted what she was thinking.

The way around saying something back is simply to kiss them. He was clearly trying to describe her sigh, expression, (throwing her head back) exasperation at that moment which led him to the conclusion she meant I love you. Nick doesn't know what we know. She was in the ocean without a mic, therefore like leads before her, could have told him anything. Didn't Brooks and Des even have an agreement to say what they felt and let the editors deal with it? I have no problem saying Nick shouldn't have said what he did at ATFR (I cringe at all 3 of their parents/grand parents watching that) but Andi made her share of mistakes too.

I missed that reality world interview. I'll have to go see if I can find it. I always wondered why he didn't see Josh as a threat. I wondered if Andi had told him he wasn't because he seemed like the obvious choice from day 1. Did Andi ever say anything around any of the other guys or Nick about jocks being her type? I can't recall. And let's not just write it off that Nick is arrogant.. obviously Josh is a big, good looking, guy. Even if he saw a sluggish, bad temper, he saw another side of Josh, the one Andi was seeing at rose ceremonies and on group dates, so very puzzling that he didn't worry about Josh. I'll always wonder is Andi wasn't going even farther than we know to make sure Nick was confident. We know she was purposely giving him all the first as she mentions it on the LCD, wouldn't there have been plenty of private words whispered while waiting for the next shot to be set up. It takes forever to move the cameras and check the lighting etc. They spend as much time standing around waiting as they do filming. We need Courtney to date Nick for a few weeks so she can spill the rest of the story for us.    I just really think there is more to it.

[Guest]

In reality this is another twilight zone episode: Loop Me
Reminds me of the Gunslinger series.

   I can't find it in myself to care about this now (yes I know I'm a mod and am supposed to pay attention). It's almost the BIP finale and more importantly for me, the MAFS finale. And football's started.  

Ha!  You Crack me up.  Sort of like after I took the Bar Exam and some chick wanted to talk over the questions and answers on the train between Baltimore and DC.  Goodness what's the point.  What's done is done!  Nick seems happy!  

I haven't commented on this thread in weeks. Just every now and then something someone says makes me wonder about an aspect of it. None of the other shows interest me much. The Bach AU is a bust, I know how MAFS is going to end and I'm not interested in Chris as TB. I should however be working on plenty of other things. Just a short break in my day.

[Lucas15]

Nick doesn't know what we know. She was in the ocean without a mic, therefore like leads before her, could have told him anything. Didn't Brooks and Des even have an agreement to say what they felt and let the editors deal with it? I have no problem saying Nick shouldn't have said what he did at ATFR (I cringe at all 3 of their parents/grand parents watching that) but Andi made her share of mistakes too.

Very true. I don't know that I ever heard that about Des & Brooks but it's very plausible. I do know that other leads have said things in those quiet moments where they knew there was no camera rolling - it was one such moment on JPG's season that Clare chose to ask JPG if he loved her so I think the cast can figure this out if they choose to.

I missed that reality world interview. I'll have to go see if I can find it. 

The red link (if you can see colors) in my post above is a hot link to the interview but here's the URL (watch for links - there's multiple pages to the interview):

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/nick-viall-the-bachelorette-couple-andi-dorfman-and-josh-murray-had-one-thing-i-couldnt-match-16579.php

I always wondered why he didn't see Josh as a threat. I wondered if Andi had told him he wasn't because he seemed like the obvious choice from day 1. Did Andi ever say anything around any of the other guys or Nick about jocks being her type? I can't recall. And let's not just write it off that Nick is arrogant.. obviously Josh is a big, good looking, guy. Even if he saw a sluggish, bad temper, he saw another side of Josh, the one Andi was seeing at rose ceremonies and on group dates, so very puzzling that he didn't worry about Josh. I'll always wonder if Andi wasn't going even farther than we know to make sure Nick was confident. We know she was purposely giving him all the first as she mentions it on the LCD, wouldn't there have been plenty of private words whispered while waiting for the next shot to be set up. It takes forever to move the cameras and check the lighting etc. They spend as much time standing around waiting as they do filming. 

I think the producers had a lot to do with that. For whatever reason (and it might be no more of a reason than Andi favored Nick also (that would certainly be consistent with everything she's said) I think the producers picked on Nick as the one most capable of diverting attention away from Andi & Josh and so they played Andi to give them as much as she could and then they took over from there. The comment that Nick made about Josh "They're terrible together" didn't come from anything we ever heard Andi say so where else could Nick have gotten that impression if not from the producers? Also, Nick got the FIR, an early 1-1 date, at least one GD rose and an impromptu 1-1 date in Venice. This was all presented to him as Andi's choice but again here's where we know (or should know) that all this was determined by the producers and Andi went along with it. If she was going to give Nick a rose anyway she would let the producers determine how and when.

We need Courtney to date Nick for a few weeks so she can spill the rest of the story for us.  I just really think there is more to it.

Ouch. Courtney? Really?

But I happen to agree with you - I do think there's more to this story that hasn't yet been told or figured out. Just like only yesterday we learned that Andi told CH on an AFR commercial break she was glad she had told Josh everything, more may come out over time; it usually does.

[Ash2214]

^ In regards to your thoughts and questions Grace, you certainly make some interesting points. Firstly, I do agree about your thoughts in regards to the comments Nick made when he told Andi he loved her in the ocean. Nick obviously wasn't aware that in the rare moment of being away from the cameras, or at least with them very close on you, Andi could have told him how she felt.

The same goes for the FS. It's pretty obvious now that Andi told Josh that he was the one or at the very least strongly alluded to it while in the FS. The looks they gave each other during the FD rose ceremony basically showed that too. Both Nick and Andi admitted that she never told him she loved him, so Nick either really didn't think much of it and strongly believed that she couldn't say anything or he was just blind in love. If I went into the FS and the lead didn't tell me they loved me or strongly alluded that I was the one, I would be pretty darn sure I wasn't going to end up as the F1. It's your one night of privacy. Words can be expressed. Obviously Nick took the sex has her words, but I'm guessing that he didn't realize that unfortunately for some people, sex is sex.

In regards to not seeing Josh as a threat, in a post ATFR interview, it might be the one Lucas is alluding to, Nick said while watching the show he could see Andi's strong connection to Josh, but Nick felt like that still couldn't negate his strong connection with her. I'm guessing for whatever reason Nick just couldn't comprehend that Andi could have had two great connections with her F2 guys, but just fell in love with one or felt more strongly about the other. As for during filming, I think it's as simple as just focusing on your relationship with the lead, but Nick kind of took it to a further extent. For example, we heard Josh say numerous times that he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he didn't know the connections or conversations she was having with other guys while with Nick, he never saw a single guy as a threat, unless he was just saying those things. However, he did appear to be pretty arrogant up until the very end.

Patrick, one of the contestants from Andi's season, just did an interview from two days ago and he said that a lot of the guys had a feeling she would end up with Josh because according to him, they were perfect for each other and it was always conspicuous of how they both lived in Atlanta. I'm guessing Nick might have been the only guy that didn't feel this way.

[ironcat]

Just want to clarify my earlier statement about taking advantage and consensual sex.  I should have specified that I meant in the specific situation of Nick and Andi, not in general.  I agree that some people lie to get the other one into bed, and that could be viewed as taking advantage, but we have zero evidence that Andi lied to Nick in that way (and he's certainly never said so), and pretty clear admission that his conclusions were all drawn on his assumptions, however compelling he thought they were at the time.  So again, zero evidence that Nick was, or felt, taken advantage of.

I also don't think it's that big a mystery why Nick was so confident and so dismissive of the threat of Josh, and agree that it was largely orchestrated by the producers, between setting things up so he would feel "special" with lots of extra time and preferential treatment, to constantly whispering in his ear (which other F2s have confirmed) that he had every reason to be confident.  And since Nick and Josh only "shared" Andi on one group date all season (something else the producers probably purposely orchestrated), he really would have been in no position to judge her connection/compatibility with Josh in the first place.  So yeah, no doubt the producers were feeding him this (erroneous) information.  And also, Andi, good little soldier that she was, had no problem taking her instructions and buying into the show's premise of throwing oneself with abandon into multiple relationships, unlike some past leads.

[SueSt]

I disagree.  If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't.  Leading on, sure.  Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her?  We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Great post Sprite. I don't think we have to know exactly what happened between Nick and Andi. Fact is, Nick felt very hurt by Andi's actions and she didn't refute Nick's statements or his memories of that night. I think the words 'taken advantage of' may be hard to interpret, but Andi definitely disregarded Nick's feelings or, as I believe, was falling in love or in love with Nick and is changing her story after the fact.

[SueSt]

I disagree.  If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't.  Leading on, sure.  Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her?  We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Sprite, great post.  Let me say one more thing.  In this dynamic where the lead is not allowed to express their feelings back to the other person, it makes this dynamic even more tricky and in my view makes the lead even more responsible.  I think some have just had sex in the FS.  Bob sure did, even Andrew who I loved slept with his F3.  So it happens, I am not unrealistic.  But in each of these cases and even JPG with Clare last year, the other person had not said I love you.  To me it does change things.  If you sleep with someone who tells you they love you and you aren't allowed to say it back, then to me by the act you are saying I love you back.  If you don't that is manipulative IMO.  This wouldn't happen in real life, since you can express your feelings in real life, but on this strange show having sex with someone who tells you they love you implies that you have those feelings too and it is the leads responsibility because they have the power in this situation.  This true whether the lead is male or female.

I think one of the key differences between this situation and most we have seen is that the lead claimed to never love the other person.  I don't know of any other lead who came out so set to put their F2 down or deny an feeling toward their F2 as Andi.  Many ask why Nick said what he did? To me, I would ask why was Andi so cold and unfeeling towards Nick and yes you can compare her to other leads for this.  As many have pointed out, Jilly was much warmer to Reid.  Ashley too was very compassionate to Ben.  I wish Nick had never discussed them having sex, just as I wish that Andi had just come out and acknowledged that she did have feelings for Nick without having to say "I never loved you and I never said I loved you".  Those words are hurtful in any situation where someone has loved someone else.  Even if true, you can state things with much more kindness and compassion.

Stuckinsc, I think you captured so well what bothered me the most... Andi's lack of compassion for a man that was clearly STILL in love with her and really hurting was despicable!

[Ash2214]

I disagree.  If the sex is consensual, there's no taking advantage (which by my definition involves coercion), IMO, regardless of who breaks up with whom or who is in love and who isn't.  Leading on, sure.  Are you implying that Andi had to twist Nick's arm to sleep with her?  We don't know who initiated what and we also don't have any actual proof that even if Andi had told Nick she wasn't in love with him but was willing to have sex with him anyway that he would have turned her down, it's just hearsay and speculation.

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Great post Sprite.  I don't think we have to know exactly what happened between Nick and Andi.  Fact is, Nick felt very hurt by Andi's actions and she didn't refute Nick's statements or his memories of that night.  I think the words 'taken advantage of' may be hard to interpret, but Andi definitely disregarded Nick's feelings or, as I believe, was falling in love or in love with Nick and is changing her story after the fact.    

I know it's just your belief, but I figured I would comment on it. Andi and Nick have both said quite a few times that Andi never told Nick she loved him and never said so in private moments. There are many examples of the lead telling contestants how they feel about them in private moments and Juan Pablo is a great example with Clare. From everything that went down on the last two episodes of the season and everything that is coming out post show, it seems to be pretty clear that Andi told Josh he was the one or at the very least strongly alluded to it in the fantasy suite.

[Ash2214]

I respectfully disagree. You can have consensual sex and still be taking advantage of someone. We are all speculating who initiated and whether it would have made a difference or not if Nick had been told she didn't love him. I don't know that...none of us do, but sometimes people tell their prospective partner that they love them...or whatever it takes to get them into bed...even when they don't mean a word of it. They do it because they know that otherwise, that person would never sleep with them. So the sex is consensual, but that person is still being taken advantage of because the other person lied to them to get what they wanted. I can't say that is what happened in this case, but to me that is still taking advantage...whether sex is consensual or not.

Sprite, great post.  Let me say one more thing.  In this dynamic where the lead is not allowed to express their feelings back to the other person, it makes this dynamic even more tricky and in my view makes the lead even more responsible.  I think some have just had sex in the FS.  Bob sure did, even Andrew who I loved slept with his F3.  So it happens, I am not unrealistic.  But in each of these cases and even JPG with Clare last year, the other person had not said I love you.  To me it does change things.  If you sleep with someone who tells you they love you and you aren't allowed to say it back, then to me by the act you are saying I love you back.  If you don't that is manipulative IMO.  This wouldn't happen in real life, since you can express your feelings in real life, but on this strange show having sex with someone who tells you they love you implies that you have those feelings too and it is the leads responsibility because they have the power in this situation.  This true whether the lead is male or female.

I think one of the key differences between this situation and most we have seen is that the lead claimed to never love the other person.  I don't know of any other lead who came out so set to put their F2 down or deny an feeling toward their F2 as Andi.  Many ask why Nick said what he did? To me, I would ask why was Andi so cold and unfeeling towards Nick and yes you can compare her to other leads for this.  As many have pointed out, Jilly was much warmer to Reid.  Ashley too was very compassionate to Ben.  I wish Nick had never discussed them having sex, just as I wish that Andi had just come out and acknowledged that she did have feelings for Nick without having to say "I never loved you and I never said I loved you".  Those words are hurtful in any situation where someone has loved someone else.  Even if true, you can state things with much more kindness and compassion.

Stuckinsc, I think you captured so well what bothered me the most... Andi's lack of compassion for a man that was clearly STILL in love with her and really hurting was despicable!

Except she did admit to having feelings for Nick and meaning every word she said about him on the show. She also went out to say that if she were to do it all over again, she would still have the same great relationship with Nick that she did the first time around. She said she never loved him and she fell in love with someone else. Someone else was more right. It's months later and I still just don't understand how people can't understand that. She didn't pick Nick. She chose someone else and was engaged to him. Nick tried to see her on more than one occasion. He wrote her a letter that basically asked her to change her mind. Reid didn't chase Jillian down post show. Ben didn't chase Ashley don't post show. They're different circumstances.

I'm not placing blame just on Nick or just on Andi. They're both at fault for different things, but I cannot understand that hate Andi has garnered because of her actions on the ATFR. I can understanding disliking her for sleeping with Nick, but her actions with Nick on the ATFR should have been expected. She was engaged to someone else, seemingly very happy, and she had to face a guy that she broke up with months ago that she had some feelings for that was still trying to win her back in different ways and heck, even spoiled the season two days after filming was complete. Not an easy situation.

[Lucas15]

In regards to not seeing Josh as a threat, in a post ATFR interview, it might be the one Lucas is alluding to, Nick said while watching the show he could see Andi's strong connection to Josh, but Nick felt like that still couldn't negate his strong connection with her. I'm guessing for whatever reason Nick just couldn't comprehend that Andi could have had two great connections with her F2 guys, but just fell in love with one or felt more strongly about the other. As for during filming, I think it's as simple as just focusing on your relationship with the lead, but Nick kind of took it to a further extent. For example, we heard Josh say numerous times that he trusted in what he had with Andi, but he didn't know the connections or conversations she was having with other guys while with Nick, he never saw a single guy as a threat, unless he was just saying those things. However, he did appear to be pretty arrogant up until the very end.

I think Nick believed that his connection was stronger than anyone else's. I would imagine that Andi played to that to an extent and the producers doubled down on whatever Andi was giving to Nick to make sure that Nick believed that. Since Nick wanted to believe that in the first place this was relatively easy for the producers to do and for Andi to do as well.

And also, Andi, good little soldier that she was, had no problem taking her instructions and buying into the show's premise of throwing oneself with abandon into multiple relationships, unlike some past leads.

That's both the good and the bad of Andi as the lead. I think she took the role seriously and was going to end up with a final rose. Engaged or not engaged I don't know but she was going to see it through. The show definitely played a role in this which CH actually pointed out when he said this in an interview:

CH: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.

At the same time they were manipulating Nick to believe he was F1 they were manipulating Andi to make her question if Josh was even going to stay to the end - which is why she was so surprised when Josh finally told her he loved her on their FD ("I never expected you to say that"). I suspect that what happened on Des's season was pointed out to her because CH's words above really kind of take my mind there.

[SueSt]

The 7/31/14 interview Nick did with Reality TV World (that's a link to the interview which is the same one that ironcat has referred to) is IMHO one of the best interviews simply because the interviewer asked Nick some tough questions and his answers sometimes went in a different direction than some of his other answers in other interviews. Here's one example where Nick could have expressed that he felt taken advantage of if he felt that way - but he didn't:

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Andi's inability to verbalize her feelings would mean that Nick was looking for non-verbal cues. Nick said he had no expectations of the FS, but made it clear what having sex in that context meant to him AND got the answers he was looking for!! This, to me, implies that Andi left no doubt that she wanted sex with him, maybe she took the initiative, took the lead physically, dressed up in a way that left no doubt... thus SHOWING Nick in no uncertain terms that she was on the same page as him. In this context, to my mind, there is no doubt that she was reciprocating his feelings.

[SueSt]

And to me, again, it wasn't necessarily about the sex but just the level of intimacy about that night. And given the situation and the time, we both knew she couldn't say things back. But I made it very clear to her where I was in my feelings for her and what something like that meant to me. And as I said last night, I had no expectations about that night.

Nick knew that he could make things clear to Andi but Andi couldn't say things back; thus he took a risk that they may not have been on the same page because their bizarre circumstances prevented that.

With regard to the bit you bolded, I definitely think he meant that he didn't expect sex to happen in the FS. He went there thinking they'd just get to know each other without cameras in their faces, but then one thing led to another and she expressed no hesitation, which led him to think she was just as in love as he was. That's why he mentioned it at ATFR while clarifying his question, which she'd immediately called out as an insult.  

I agree about Nick not having expectation for sex in the FS... particularly since he made it clear what it would mean to him in that context. I mentioned this in another post, but I imagine Andi did more than express no hesitation. I feel she must have more actively initiated sex or took charge or dressed up in a way that left Nick with no doubt.

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