Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[stuckinsc]

Two girls were arrested yesterday for drinking most of their duty free liquor in the bathroom of a plane, and lighting a cigarette from Toronto to Cuba, which set off the fire alarm.

The plane was escorted back to Toronto by two fighter jets. You watch, no more duty free liquor allowed on carry on's, coming soon to an airport near you.

Talking on the phone sounds pretty lame to me.

Global News

I said the f word in my teaching lab last spring.  it was a joke and it slipped in a moment of laughing.  I got in trouble, but it after one discussion it was over.

Nick made a mistake almost 4 months ago.  Are we ever going to let it go?

[Kashathediva]

I think a lot have. Some may never.
Different strokes, right?

[Amberish]

Two girls were arrested yesterday for drinking most of their duty free liquor in the bathroom of a plane, and lighting a cigarette from Toronto to Cuba, which set off the fire alarm.

The plane was escorted back to Toronto by two fighter jets. You watch, no more duty free liquor allowed on carry on's, coming soon to an airport near you.

Talking on the phone sounds pretty lame to me.

Global News

Seriously?

I guess these two idiot girls have something in common with Nick, in that they made complete asses of themselves.

[happygolucky]

Since the new info about Nick aren't that interesting to most to discuss ... I open the old theme, because no matter the time and my understanding of the world I can't wrap my head around some of the names Nick has been addressed with. So those who love to write, please help me out. Why has Nick been called "a stalker", "a creep" and "a strategizer".

Now I think over time I figured the reasons for calling him out on the strategizing part, tho' with the recent events shown on the new "saop" BIP, that could be said pretty much about everyone who ever participates to these kind of shows (some just prefer to not acknowledge it on camera so openly), but everyone is contemplating what the next moves of the others will be, who is going to do what, who is sleeping with whom (ooops, I thought that sex should not be discussed on TV!!!)...and who is better to be paired with to not go home ... but of course, we don't call that a strategy, right?
For the creep, I figured that most people definition probably isn't aligned with mine, but considering that Creep song of Radiohead, I came to conclusion that probably a guy who is over the head in love with a girl who doesn't reciprocate the feelings is most likely a creep (just haven't figured to who).

Now, a stalker, that's the hardest ... I just don't see one reason for it. If we are talking about his hotel move in Belgium ... even there I didn't notice any stalkerish tendencies in Nick's behavior ... but then maybe I'm crazy, because I do have this dreams of a guy who I fancy to knock on my door and ask me out (want it so badly, that I feel almost a stalker for checking his pics that I can find online, because I can't see him in person much).

So ... who can't look forward ... can you give me a closure with the past?

[Lucas15]

Now, a stalker, that's the hardest ... I just don't see one reason for it.

So ... who can't look forward ... can you give me a closure with the past?

First of all this is a most interesting post but let me attempt to address some thoughts on the term you state you have the least understanding of - stalker.

I think there's different definitions of stalker - it can be both a legal definition and a psychological one. Almost everywhere in the world there are laws against stalking. People characterized as stalkers may be accused of having a mistaken belief that another person loves them; a working legal definition might be "the willful and repeated following, watching and/or harassing of another person" (note the use of the word repeating - a single incident doesn't constitute stalking). Different jurisdictions will define "repeating" differently - in the UK for example, an incident of unwanted attention only has to happen twice before the person is expected to be aware that their attention is unwanted and subsequent attempts would cross the boundary of legality and a restraining order could be sought.

In addition to legal there are also psychological definitions. Paul E. Mullen (et al) defined 5 types of stalkers in 1999:

• Rejected stalkers pursue their victims in order to reverse, correct, or avenge a rejection (e.g. divorce, separation, termination).
  
• Resentful stalkers pursue a vendetta because of a sense of grievance against the victims – motivated mainly by the desire to frighten and distress the victim.
  
• Intimacy seekers seek to establish an intimate, loving relationship with their victim. Such stalkers often believe that the victim is a long-sought-after soul mate, and they were 'meant' to be together.
  
• Incompetent suitors, despite poor social or courting skills, have a fixation, or in some cases, a sense of entitlement to an intimate relationship with those who have attracted their amorous interest. Their victims are most often already in a dating relationship with someone else.
  
• Predatory stalkers spy on the victim in order to prepare and plan an attack – often sexual – on the victim.
  

Now in this case we have that pesky plane video. We shouldn't have it because that conversation shouldn't have occurred at all at any time (it was a breach of contract even though it was family that Nick was talking to) and it shouldn't have happened in a public place where it could have been (and in this case was) recorded. But it did happen and it established that Nick could have been contemplating arguing or attempting to change Andi's mind which fits into the category of a "rejected stalker" because he made attempts (two that we know of) to contact Andi after she rejected him and when that didn't work he did write a letter arguing for a reversal of her decision (arguably a 3rd attempt to reverse her decision or change her mind).

IMHO the use of the word stalker is somewhat of an overreach - a melodramatic way of describing Nick's behavoir after filming ended. But it's not a complete overreach; factually he did try, on more than one occasion, to contact Andi after she made it known that she wasn't interested in talking to him and in his letter did argue for a reversal or correction of her decision.

[ironcat]

I think a lot of the use of the word "stalker" in relation to Nick here has been in discussing how the PRODUCERS tried to present a story line where he was stalking Andi post show, and may have even convinced Andi of this as well. I don't think that many people on this board are still calling Nick a stalker, certainly no more than are still calling Andi a cold bitch. Which is worse?

[Sable]

Since the new info about Nick aren't that interesting to most to discuss ... I open the old theme, because no matter the time and my understanding of the world I can't wrap my head around some of the names Nick has been addressed with. So those who love to write, please help me out. Why has Nick been called "a stalker", "a creep" and "a strategizer".

Now I think over time I figured the reasons for calling him out on the strategizing part, tho' with the recent events shown on the new "saop" BIP, that could be said pretty much about everyone who ever participates to these kind of shows (some just prefer to not acknowledge it on camera so openly), but everyone is contemplating what the next moves of the others will be, who is going to do what, who is sleeping with whom (ooops, I thought that sex should not be discussed on TV!!!)...and who is better to be paired with to not go home ... but of course, we don't call that a strategy, right?
For the creep, I figured that most people definition probably isn't aligned with mine, but considering that Creep song of Radiohead, I came to conclusion that probably a guy who is over the head in love with a girl who doesn't reciprocate the feelings is most likely a creep (just haven't figured to who).

Now, a stalker, that's the hardest ... I just don't see one reason for it. If we are talking about his hotel move in Belgium ... even there I didn't notice any stalkerish tendencies in Nick's behavior ... but then maybe I'm crazy, because I do have this dreams of a guy  who I fancy to knock on my door and ask me out (want it so badly, that I feel almost a stalker for checking his pics that I can find online, because I can't see him in person much).

So ... who can't look forward ... can you give me a closure with the past?

I don't think Nick is a stalker at all. He tried to contact Andi (through TPTB) a grand total of twice. Although Andi now claims (in her phone interview with Ali Fedotowsky that he never tried to contact her at all. I would really love to get to the bottom of this because if her never tried to contact her, then he was unfairly given that stalker label. So which is it? Did he try to contact Andi or not? Anyway, he never tried to contact her directly by phone or email, he never tried to fly to Atlanta or tried to go to her home to talk to her. Sean and Arie both tried to contact Emily directly after her season, and they were not called stalkers. So like you, I just wonder how and why the general public has called Nick a stalker.

As far as being a strategizer, I guess Nick wasn't very good at that (or not as good as the other guys in the house accused him of being) because he didn't "win" at the end by becoming the F1, he wasn't chosen to be on BIP, and he wasn't chosen as the next bachelor. All the men that accused him of not being there for the right reasons or strategizing went on to either "win" The Bachelorette, become a contestant on BIP, or be chosen as the next bachelor. So I guess all of them were much better "strategizers" than Nick because they got much, much more out of being on The Bachelorette than Nick ever did. In all seriousness though, I don't fault anyone for going on these shows and taking advantage of any and all opportunities that come their way. I just don't like when the contestants call others out for strategizing when they themselves are doing the same thing. That's just hypocritical to me.

I guess part of the reason that Nick was perceived as a stalker, creepy, a strategizer, a villain etc. is because that is the way TPTB wanted him to be portrayed and they made sure of it by the edit they gave him. I am sure that TPTB could have taken any other contestant and made him appear to be the villain of the season as well with all the hundreds of hours of video that sitting on the cutting room floor.

[Lucas15]

I think a lot of the use of the word "stalker" in relation to Nick here has been in discussing how the PRODUCERS tried to present a story line where he was stalking Andi post show, and may have even convinced Andi of this as well.  I don't think that many people on this board are still calling Nick a stalker, certainly no more than are still calling Andi a cold bitch.  Which is worse?

Agreed. My points in my post above were all about how the show presented the storyline they wanted to present, based on what they chose to tell us and what they might have also known that they chose not to tell us. It's been debated (and we'll probably never know) if the plane video influenced in any way how the producers presented a story - did they make Nick do things as some sort of "punishment" for that conversation? Or did they simply go with it and use it to formulate how they would tells a story about the end of the season?

[Sable]

Now, a stalker, that's the hardest ... I just don't see one reason for it.

So ... who can't look forward ... can you give me a closure with the past?

First of all this is a most interesting post but let me attempt to address some thoughts on the term you state you have the least understanding of - stalker.

I think there's different definitions of stalker - it can be both a legal definition and a psychological one. Almost everywhere in the world there are laws against stalking. People characterized as stalkers may be accused of having a mistaken belief that another person loves them; a working legal definition might be "the willful and repeated following, watching and/or harassing of another person" (note the use of the word repeating - a single incident doesn't constitute stalking). Different jurisdictions will define "repeating" differently - in the UK for example, an incident of unwanted attention only has to happen twice before the person is expected to be aware that their attention is unwanted and subsequent attempts would cross the boundary of legality and a restraining order could be sought.

In addition to legal there are also psychological definitions. Paul E. Mullen (et al) defined 5 types of stalkers in 1999:

• Rejected stalkers pursue their victims in order to reverse, correct, or avenge a rejection (e.g. divorce, separation, termination).
  
• Resentful stalkers pursue a vendetta because of a sense of grievance against the victims – motivated mainly by the desire to frighten and distress the victim.
  
• Intimacy seekers seek to establish an intimate, loving relationship with their victim. Such stalkers often believe that the victim is a long-sought-after soul mate, and they were 'meant' to be together.
  
• Incompetent suitors, despite poor social or courting skills, have a fixation, or in some cases, a sense of entitlement to an intimate relationship with those who have attracted their amorous interest. Their victims are most often already in a dating relationship with someone else.
  
• Predatory stalkers spy on the victim in order to prepare and plan an attack – often sexual – on the victim.
  

Now in this case we have that pesky plane video. We shouldn't have it because that conversation shouldn't have occurred at all at any time (it was a breach of contract even though it was family that Nick was talking to) and it shouldn't have happened in a public place where it could have been (and in this case was) recorded. But it did happen and it established that Nick could have been contemplating arguing or attempting to change Andi's mind which fits into the category of a "rejected stalker" because he made attempts (two that we know of) to contact Andi after she rejected him and when that didn't work he did write a letter arguing for a reversal of her decision (arguably a 3rd attempt to reverse her decision or change her mind).

IMHO the use of the word stalker is somewhat of an overreach - a melodramatic way of describing Nick's behavoir after filming ended. But it's not a complete overreach; factually he did try, on more than one occasion, to contact Andi after she made it known that she wasn't interested in talking to him and in his letter did argue for a reversal or correction of her decision.

Bolding by me...

Yeah, that plane video. I agree we shouldn't have it, but I cannot say that it shouldn't have occurred because it was breech of contract. I am sure that every contestant tells their close friends and family exactly what happened while they were on the show. I definitely think that Josh's family knew that he was F1 based on the tweets by his mother and sister. I personally think it would be weird if the contestants didn't talk to their family and friends and let them know about their time on the show. I do agree that Nick should have waited to talk to his parents when he was in a more private place, but he didn't. But for Reality Steve's friend sitting right behind him on the plane, nobody would even know about his phone conversation. Some of the passengers on the plane would just remember him as the guy who was talking too loudly on his cell phone. I do get that it was probably really annoying. Just yesterday I was watching my son's soccer scrimmage and there was a mom there talking on her cell phone so loudly and all the rest of the soccer parents got to hear all of her problems. We weren't interested! So while the plane video was an unfortunate event, I don't think it makes Nick the most horrible person ever.

As far as Nick being a stalker, I wonder if people think that Arie and Sean were stalking Emily as well? Sean got Emily's phone number from a mutual friend and tried calling her. Arie flew to North Carolina and tried to see Emily and then ended up leaving his journal on her doorstep. Both were probably looking for closure or hoping Emily would change her mind (just like Nick was trying to do with Andi).

[LibbyBell]

....

As far as Nick being a stalker,  I wonder if people think that Arie and Sean were stalking Emily as well?  Sean got Emily's phone number from a mutual friend and tried calling her.  Arie flew to North Carolina and tried to see Emily and then ended up leaving his journal on her doorstep.  Both were probably looking for closure or hoping Emily would change her mind (just like Nick was trying to do with Andi).

snipped for brevity by me
I believe that had Nick's attempts to woo Andi back post show worked, we might have seen a different edit. I do think Nick was encouraged by TPTB and it could have been their attempt to change the outcome. If it had happened we MIGHT have seen Nick as the "knight in shining armor" not giving up on love. Josh's edit may have been even more of "too good to be true" but not so much that it would tarnish him and eliminate him as the next bachelor. It would make for a great show and a great next season.
All that being said-- I ONLY saw Andi picking Josh, and IMHO they are the couple that are meant to be and have the best chance of making it!

[Ash2214]

^ In regards to Sean and Arie - while you can make some sort of comparison, I do think, in my opinion they are different. Firstly, with Arie, he didn't even know Emily picked anyone. He apparently had no clue and if I'm remembering correctly, RS didn't know and release Jef as the F1 until close to the end. He had no way of knowing if Emily ended up with anyone, which I want to add when we saw Nick talking with CH at the MTA taping, CH did reference Andi being in a serious relationship with Josh. With Sean, he left her a voice mail and left it up to Emily. Something Andi's F2 guy did not. The biggest point here is that they stopped. They let it go. They moved on. When each guy went face to face with Emily it was a completely different story than how Nick was with Andi.

Nick tried to see her once, she said no. Nick tried to see her twice, she said no. He then proceeded to write her a letter that contained thoughts of how much he loved her, their relationship and how she essentially made the wrong decision and questioned her if she just took the easy route. When they came face to face for the first time - well everyone knows how that went down.    

I certainly don't view Nick as a stalker. Not at all. I do, however, think it took it a bit too far and at some point, he should have let it go and accepted what happened.

[sdmom]

Let's see:
F3 Chris: next bachelor, F4, Marcus on BIP and engaged to someone else, Brian and Dylan doing appearances (which I think it's great for anyone who will take advantages of their 15 minutes of fame), Cody on BIP
Nick: quietly living his life in Chicago.. No wonder people are not interesting in talking about what he's up to. It's boring.

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