Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

by **GuardianAngel** Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:29 pm

Great post Lucas. For me personally, if I was in that situation, the reason not to make love with Nick, is simply because there's another guy left, and I'm conflicted. And if I'm conflicted, I'm not sure that I'm going to choose Nick either. She says she wasn't sure about Josh's feelings, he didn't tell her he was in love with her until the FS, everytime I read that, I say, "So let's sleep with Nick because............?

That's her story, she's going to stick with it, but like I posted several times, it still doesn't answer my question why would she sleep with Nick and and use him to re-enforce he is the F1.

by stuckinsc Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:45 pm

grace8136 wrote:
Kashathediva wrote:
Lucas15 wrote:

If you appreciated that abbreviated story you might appreciate the fuller version even more. They pursued Chris (which we all knew) and Chris kept saying "No". Then they'd come back with a bigger offer (of course Chris was standing on principle, not trying to negotiate a better deal). Their "final" offer was $500,000 and Chris said "No" to that one also; but this was also about the time he met Peyton. I guess "final" wasn't really final because they came back with $1,000,000, to which Chris replied with the picture. Afterwards Chris once referred to Peyton as his "million dollar girl" and unless you knew the back story that might not have made much sense but if you knew the back story, Chris gave up $1,000,000 for his principles and to marry Peyton. Yay Chris L!!! indeed.

Thanks. Pretty sure this fuller story made the rounds on various forums. Chris is a stand up guy who got a stand up gal. I can't think of anyone in all the years I've been around that has a negative things to say about either.

IA.. They are definitely 2 of my favorites. I hadn't heard the million dollar story. Love it! I wasn't a member of this board back then, but I remember that on the motherboard, right after Ali's season ended, there was a lot of discussion that Peyton would be a great match for Chris. It seemed obvious even before it happened. They seem like the perfect pairing. Wonder if they'll start a family soon.

@knitty... I like your theory because of all the things she said to Nick on the LCD, but it came out afterwards that she discussed which ring to pick with Josh in the FS.

@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

I think there is a difference between kissing another man and doubting him constantly in the real world and Andi having sex with Nick when she was still dating both of them. I can understand how the two things would be very different to Josh. Plus with the kissing Josh was in his early 20s and now almost 30, age and time can also change your perspective.

by stuckinsc Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:49 pm

Alanna wrote:Andi just gave an interview where it sounds like she basically confirmed Lucas' theory- she was afraid Josh would leave her until he told her he loved her when they were alone. Obviously, it's up to the individual to believe her or not. I see no reason she would lie and her post-show behavior with Josh certainly shows to me she's telling the truth.

If she was truly in love with Nick and chose Josh for the fame, then she's been whacked around with the stupid stick a little too much and then drenched with delusion water if she thought this was going to work out for her. Wouldn't Josh eventually feel that she's using him and bail? Not to mention, she's doing a bad job of gaining fame by staying in atl and playing with the dog 24/7. Maybe she's a lazy girl though, Andi, not the dog . But ok, we can see how this goes. Any theory is as good as the other.

Alanna, I think most of what Andi says in these interviews is 100% true. I also expect that the experiences since the show finished might have changed how she remembers her time with Nick. I don't mean that as a criticism. Experience changes all of our perception, even if she did love Nick then and at one point might have been able to imagine a life with him, with everything since the show, I expect she doesn't feel that way anymore and it is probably hard for her to imagine she ever did.

I do believe she loves Josh and made the right choice for her, so I am not trying to lessen what Josh and Andi have. To me, her having a great connection and even love with Nick just makes the one with Josh all that more powerful and special because it was great enough to give up something pretty good for.

by Lucas15 Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:09 pm

grace8136 wrote:@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

Hmm - maybe yes maybe no. I don't think a guy is going to break up with a girl he is in love with for kissing another guy; it's not that cut and dried. If he wanted to break up with her anyway that might be a good excuse though. But the process of this show is so weird I don't know how to precisely translate real life to show process.

There was an interview earlier this morning (literally being commented on while I was writing this post and I didn't know what was said until after I posted) in which Josh addressed this somewhat. Josh knew that he had not yet told Andi he was in love with her until the FD and therefore he knew she was going to have to go through the entire process. I think Josh ultimately accepted the process of the show and therefore what he might have done IRL wouldn't necessarily have been the same thing he would do on a show where he accepts the "process" - especially because he knowingly created part of the process by holding back as long as he did.

As to the lie detector, Josh also explained that. He and Andi had just had a lengthy conversation about trust the week before (which was quite early in the "process") and it had taken Andi a long time to get to where she trusted Josh and then Josh went on the lie detector date and began to question all they had discussed about trust. What Josh didn't know then about the process is that the lead doesn't pick all the "date stuff" so he blamed Andi for the lie detector on the date. Personally I think this is a good example of how TPTB mess with everyone. They knew about the trust discussions and came up with the lie detector precisely because they knew it would create drama - which it did. As of right now? Josh's comment was they both lied two times and are perfect for each other.

by unknown82 Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:27 pm

GuardianAngel wrote:Great post Lucas. For me personally, if I was in that situation, the reason not to make love with Nick, is simply because there's another guy left, and I'm conflicted. And if I'm conflicted, I'm not sure that I'm going to choose Nick either. She says she wasn't sure about Josh's feelings, he didn't tell her he was in love with her until the FS, everytime I read that, I say, "So let's sleep with Nick because............?

That's her story, she's going to stick with it, but like I posted several times, it still doesn't answer my question why would she sleep with Nick and and use him to re-enforce he is the F1.

Color me confused but in Andi 's recent mag interview (Jezebel) she stated "I think if Josh wasn't there I would not be engaged right now—I really, truly believe that." So if that is the case, why did Andi sleep with Nick? So, if she really didn't see herself ending up with Nick, why make the situation more complicated by sleeping with him? I have said it before and I will say it again, Andi wanted to eat her cake and have it without really caring about the consequences of her actions, IMHO.

by Acrunch Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:44 pm

unknown82 wrote:

Color me confused but in Andi 's recent mag interview (Jezebel) she stated "I think if Josh wasn't there I would not be engaged right now—I really, truly believe that." So if that is the case, why did Andi sleep with Nick? So, if she really didn't see herself ending up with Nick, why make the situation more complicated by sleeping with him? I have said it before and I will say it again, Andi wanted to eat her cake and have it without really caring about the consequences of her actions, IMHO.

Maybe she didn't come to that realization until after actually experiencing the fantasy suite date with Nick. Maybe even if there hadn't been a Josh...she wouldn't have gotten engaged to Nick exactly because of their day/night together. Maybe the time without cameras and yes, sleeping with him, made her realize that he wasn't what she wanted or needed or hoped he would be for her and that in fact, whatever feelings she was feeling for him were not love. Maybe what she learned from spending private time with Josh had nothing to do with Nick and everything to do with her relationship with Josh.

by Kashathediva Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:46 pm

I don't think the answers to many of these questions will ever be apparent or answered.
There have been times in life, I don't know why I've done certain things. It's not something a person usually admits to at the time. But it happens. Sometimes logic has nothing to do with it and you just go with the flow.

by Lucas15 Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:03 pm

GuardianAngel wrote:Great post Lucas. For me personally, if I was in that situation, the reason not to make love with Nick, is simply because there's another guy left, and I'm conflicted. And if I'm conflicted, I'm not sure that I'm going to choose Nick either. She says she wasn't sure about Josh's feelings, he didn't tell her he was in love with her until the FS, everytime I read that, I say, "So let's sleep with Nick because............?

First of all, none of us posting here about what happened between Nick and Andi in the FS really knows exactly how it happened, we only know that it happened.

So Andi had sexual intercourse with Nick - but Nick also had sexual intercourse with Andi. Did Andi try to suck Nick in to having deeper feelings for her by sleeping with him - or did Nick try to suck Andi in to having deeper feelings for him by sleeping with her? Did Nick try to suck Andi in to having deeper feelings for him by telling her how special "making love" was to him? Did Andi do what she did hoping that it would be a wonderful experience that would shape her feelings and change her ultimate decision? Or was that what Nick hoped? Did each hope the shared experience would deepen the bond between them? You can blame Andi for what she did but you can also give her credit because she gave her relationship with Nick every possible opportunity to work for both of them.

The only fair thing I can assume (because I wasn't there and don't know) is that it was two consenting adults and neither viewed it as an attempt by one to take advantage of the other. They were equal participants who did with they did in the FS with the best intentions.

My biggest issue with Nick not what he did in the FS but that he took what should have been a private moment for both parties and turned it into a public circus, to say nothing of compounding that circus by going into rather intimate details of the night on the ET interview which is even more uncalled for and classless than what he said during the ATFR.

by jlccaz Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:05 pm

I'm sort of sick to death of this topic, so Bad Me for even commenting, but I always thought it a very telling moment when Josh and Andi were nose to nose at the dinner date before relocating to the fantasy suite and she says she never thought she'd hear him say stuff like that (bold, confident I love you's, I see you as my wife talk). And he says, "you didn't?" And she explains she didn't know if he was just happy go lucky, or happy with her. And he says, it's both, and certainly the latter. And then they sort of continue that conversation back at the villa. "you need to know that even if you can't say anything to me" is sort of the big milestone he crossed in Dominican Republic ... and then when he sounds exactly the same to her OFF camera, later that day, they are each sold on the other (what's been happening on camera is still real, and even better)

I also agree with those who say the foundation of the relationship today was the trust built in the Dominican, starting very likely with her being honest about where things had gone with Nick.

Josh had some lingering doubts about her, because at the proposal speech when she's given that simply awful "I was scared; this is so hard" introduction to the big I LOVE YOU reveal, you can see he starts to believe she's a fraud, it's a stupid TV show only, and he's made an ass of himself ... he said in one of those interviews (People?) that he started to pull his hands away from her, and then she finally gets it out that she "always" loved him.

And it seemed to me she was like Bradley Cooper at the end of Silver Linings Playbook ... Pat loved Tiffany from the night the met, but he "got stuck" and only realized that's what had been going on very much later.

by sbolduc Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:28 pm

^^ great post I like the comparison to Silver Linings Playbook that makes a lot of sense to me.

by Lucas15 Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:30 pm

jlccaz wrote:I'm sort of sick to death of this topic, so Bad Me for even commenting

I would say "Good You" for such an articulate insightful post. Your Silver Linings Playbook analogy was exactly what DocNash and I felt had happened several pages of posts ago and I think is right on point.

by vivi2 Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:34 pm

Acrunch wrote:
unknown82 wrote:

Color me confused but in Andi 's recent mag interview (Jezebel) she stated "I think if Josh wasn't there I would not be engaged right now—I really, truly believe that." So if that is the case, why did Andi sleep with Nick? So, if she really didn't see herself ending up with Nick, why make the situation more complicated by sleeping with him? I have said it before and I will say it again, Andi wanted to eat her cake and have it without really caring about the consequences of her actions, IMHO.

Maybe she didn't come to that realization until after actually experiencing the fantasy suite date with Nick. Maybe even if there hadn't been a Josh...she wouldn't have gotten engaged to Nick exactly because of their day/night together. Maybe the time without cameras and yes, sleeping with him, made her realize that he wasn't what she wanted or needed or hoped he would be for her and that in fact, whatever feelings she was feeling for him were not love. Maybe what she learned from spending private time with Josh had nothing to do with Nick and everything to do with her relationship with Josh.

I'm quoting Jillian: "..proud of Andi, she was able to distinguish the physical love between the emotional love..., didn't seem to go beyond the sexual connection"

So maybe you're right, Acrunch.

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