Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[vivi2]

^^ great post I like the comparison to Silver Linings Playbook that makes a lot of sense to me.

DITTO. I loved that movie.

[Guest]

So "I would be flattered" was perceived as Nick considering the idea of being The Bach?
...
So, I don't know what Nick really thinks about the franchise and the role of TB, but whatever the standard answer on this kind of question is, he answered as any good businessman would do.

To be honest the only reason I started looking into things Nick has said about being TB is because my wife is very convinced that Nick has been faking a lot of things for quite a long time and that what he really wants is to be "The Bachelor"; and to be equally honest, I don't agree with her but I started looking to see what evidence is out there to support either opinion.

IMHO those that "want" the role have a certain pattern in what they do or say and that pattern is different than those who really don't want the role. Those that do want it act a little like a politician who says "I haven't decided if I'm going to run or not yet" and behind the scenes start raising money to finance a campaign to run; their denial is somewhat disingenuous because it's obvious they are testing the water to see if there's voter support. In this case those who want the role often say that "they would be flattered to be asked but it would be a tough decision" but they don't shut down all possibility. Those who don't want the role shut down speculation rather quickly by making it clear they don't want to do it.

Jeremy Anderson wanted the role of The Bachelor very badly and he kept saying things about how flattered he would be to be asked; he was a little peeved that the show picked Jason over him. After Emily's season, Arie wanted the role and he said "That's a very tough decision and I'd really have to put a lot of thought to that. Obviously, months have gone by since the taping, but it's a very emotional journey. It'd be a very tough decision for me, but I would be flattered if they asked." Arie never said there's no way he would do it and he still wants the role; if reports are to be believed, he wants it very badly.

Chris Lambton didn't want the role and he only said ”If I was going to do it, it’d be on my own terms. I’d want to do it the right way for myself in order to end up with the perfect girl for me. If I needed to break the rules, so be it.” They kept offering him more and more money and he kept turing them down. The last figure I heard was they offered him $1,000,000 and he replied by sending them a picture of himself with Peyton - and they stopped asking.

Kasha has posted that she has heard from reliable sources that Nick doesn't want the role. I believe Kasha 100% in what she's heard and if she says the sources are reliable then I believe she is 100% correct that they are. But that makes Nick's answers in at least 3 different interviews (what he said to US Weekly, what he said in the ET video upthread, and what he said to Ali on an E! interview) somewhat disingenuous. If he's not interested then he should come right out and say he's not interested.

Of course coming right out and plainly saying he's not interested could shut down all possibility for the future and I can accept that as a good business man you should always want to keep all options open. But if that's an option that Nick wants to keep open (which IMHO is exactly what he's doing) then all I can question is when he decided to keep that option open and it would have to have been before July 29 when he started saying those things.

Now why in the world Nick - or anyone else for that matter - would ever want to be the lead on this show is beyond me; I'd rather stick a fork in my eye.

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

[emad0722]

So "I would be flattered" was perceived as Nick considering the idea of being The Bach?
...
So, I don't know what Nick really thinks about the franchise and the role of TB, but whatever the standard answer on this kind of question is, he answered as any good businessman would do.

To be honest the only reason I started looking into things Nick has said about being TB is because my wife is very convinced that Nick has been faking a lot of things for quite a long time and that what he really wants is to be "The Bachelor"; and to be equally honest, I don't agree with her but I started looking to see what evidence is out there to support either opinion.

IMHO those that "want" the role have a certain pattern in what they do or say and that pattern is different than those who really don't want the role. Those that do want it act a little like a politician who says "I haven't decided if I'm going to run or not yet" and behind the scenes start raising money to finance a campaign to run; their denial is somewhat disingenuous because it's obvious they are testing the water to see if there's voter support. In this case those who want the role often say that "they would be flattered to be asked but it would be a tough decision" but they don't shut down all possibility. Those who don't want the role shut down speculation rather quickly by making it clear they don't want to do it.

Jeremy Anderson wanted the role of The Bachelor very badly and he kept saying things about how flattered he would be to be asked; he was a little peeved that the show picked Jason over him. After Emily's season, Arie wanted the role and he said "That's a very tough decision and I'd really have to put a lot of thought to that. Obviously, months have gone by since the taping, but it's a very emotional journey. It'd be a very tough decision for me, but I would be flattered if they asked." Arie never said there's no way he would do it and he still wants the role; if reports are to be believed, he wants it very badly.

Chris Lambton didn't want the role and he only said ”If I was going to do it, it’d be on my own terms. I’d want to do it the right way for myself in order to end up with the perfect girl for me. If I needed to break the rules, so be it.” They kept offering him more and more money and he kept turing them down. The last figure I heard was they offered him $1,000,000 and he replied by sending them a picture of himself with Peyton - and they stopped asking.

Kasha has posted that she has heard from reliable sources that Nick doesn't want the role. I believe Kasha 100% in what she's heard and if she says the sources are reliable then I believe she is 100% correct that they are. But that makes Nick's answers in at least 3 different interviews (what he said to US Weekly, what he said in the ET video upthread, and what he said to Ali on an E! interview) somewhat disingenuous. If he's not interested then he should come right out and say he's not interested.

Of course coming right out and plainly saying he's not interested could shut down all possibility for the future and I can accept that as a good business man you should always want to keep all options open. But if that's an option that Nick wants to keep open (which IMHO is exactly what he's doing) then all I can question is when he decided to keep that option open and it would have to have been before July 29 when he started saying those things.

Now why in the world Nick - or anyone else for that matter - would ever want to be the lead on this show is beyond me; I'd rather stick a fork in my eye.

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

Sorry who is playing coy exactly?? IMO Chris and Arie have been very forth right with their desire to be the bachelor. Both have tweeted and RTed as much - nick has never done such things. I have no idea if he does or does not want the gig but we cannot know for sure or make any assumptions. I also remember sean saying he didn't want to and heck look where we are now - a proposal and tv wedding.

[sbolduc]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

Yes Chris said "now you are starting to say who you think will be the next bachelor". I watched that scene again after the fact to see if that was what Chris was implying (i.e. that Nick wanted it) but I took it more that Nick (being the analytical person he is) was trying to figure out who (TPTB) they were setting it up for. I strongly believe that he thought that Josh was the guy they were gunning for TB, which furthered his belief that he was F1.

As soon as I saw the plane video, I was a fan of Nick. Why? Because not once did he say "oh well at least I can be the next TB", all he seemed to be concerned with was that Andi didn't pick him and was upset that she picked Josh instead. That to me indicated that regardless of what he said about Josh/Andi at the time (which I thought was not that bad considering he just got dumped), he was genuine in his feelings for Andi and TB was not his end game so to speak.

Further his actions on the show were not TB behaviour, at all. He is not stupid he knew he wasn't going to get a peachy clean edit when the guys argued with him in Conneticut, his salty behaviour in France, the full out argument in Belgium, his agreesiveness to Andi (grabbing her in Italy) etc.

We have had two "family friend" sources (while the season was airing) on here and Kasha (who if she says its a reliable source - I fully believe her) who have said that at this time Nick doesn't want to be the Bachelor. RS even said a couple times that even in the slight chance that Nick was offered it he didn't think he would even do it.

While the season was filming/airing I do not believe TB was Nick's end game, it just doesn't make sense with the sources, RS, plane video, and his actions on the show.

The last nail in the coffin, for me, was the FS comment, had Nick not made that comment and everything else about the ATFR stayed the same, I bet you even those condemning him on here now (which I think everyone has a right to agree or disagree with, not arguing with that) would be feeling sorry for "poor Nick" and would have many more people supporting him to be the Bachelor. All IMO of course

[Lucas15]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

That was sort of my point. To be honest, given what Nick has told us about his dating / romance history, the show might just help him find the right person. As I recall he said he dated one girl on and off for 7 1/2 years. That's a long time even in your early 20s to stay in a relationship that isn't resolving itself one way or another. And then he got engaged (when he was 27) and almost immediately broke up which was 6 years ago. It would be nice for him to get a jump start to the right relationship and I really would not blame him if that was his thinking. But he would have been a lot better keeping the controversial thing he said private and I think if he had, he would have had a much better chance of being considered.

[sbolduc]

One last thing to add, I do think it is possible for Nick's position to change, but I just don't think that was his "strategy", if it was he is much dumber than I thought, because his strategy sucked IMO.

[isittrue]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

Yes Chris said "now you are starting to say who you think will be the next bachelor". I watched that scene again after the fact to see if that was what Chris was implying (i.e. that Nick wanted it) but I took it more that Nick (being the analytical person he is) was trying to figure out who (TPTB) they were setting it up for. I strongly believe that he thought that Josh was the guy they were gunning for TB, which furthered his belief that he was F1.

As soon as I saw the plane video, I was a fan of Nick. Why? Because not once did he say "oh well at least I can be the next TB", all he seemed to be concerned with was that Andi didn't pick him and was upset that she picked Josh instead. That to me indicated that regardless of what he said about Josh/Andi at the time (which I thought was not that bad considering he just got dumped), he was genuine in his feelings for Andi and TB was not his end game so to speak.

Further his actions on the show were not TB behaviour, at all. He is not stupid he knew he wasn't going to get a peachy clean edit when the guys argued with him in Conneticut, his salty behaviour in France, the full out argument in Belgium, his agreesiveness to Andi (grabbing her in Italy) etc.

We have had two "family friend" sources (while the season was airing) on here and Kasha (who if she says its a reliable source - I fully believe her) who have said that at this time Nick doesn't want to be the Bachelor. RS even said a couple times that even in the slight chance that Nick was offered it he didn't think he would even do it.

While the season was filming/airing I do not believe TB was Nick's end game, it just doesn't make sense with the sources, RS, plane video, and his actions on the show.

The last nail in the coffin, for me, was the FS comment, had Nick not made that comment and everything else about the ATFR stayed the same, I bet you even those condemning him on here now (which I think everyone has a right to agree or disagree with, not arguing with that) would be feeling sorry for "poor Nick" and would have many more people supporting him to be the Bachelor. All IMO of course

Great post! At this point, I just wish they'd officially announce the new Bachelor (who is Chris by all indications so far) so we can move on past this topic too.   

[sbolduc]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

That was sort of my point. To be honest, given what Nick has told us about his dating / romance history, the show might just help him find the right person. As I recall he said he dated one girl on and off for 7 1/2 years. That's a long time even in your early 20s to stay in a relationship that isn't resolving itself one way or another. And then he got engaged (when he was 27) and almost immediately broke up which was 6 years ago. It would be nice for him to get a jump start to the right relationship and I really would not blame him if that was his thinking. But he would have been a lot better keeping the controversial thing he said private and I think if he had, he would have had a much better chance of being considered.

I just wrote that above! Great minds think alike, always enjoy reading your posts Lucas   

Just to clarify I don't think he has been single for those 6 years, he has dated at least one other person for an extended period of time (looks like at least a year, maybe more), they are still friends he posted a pic of her last week.

[stuckinsc]

@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

Hmm - maybe yes maybe no. I don't think a guy is going to break up with a girl he is in love with for kissing another guy; it's not that cut and dried. If he wanted to break up with her anyway that might be a good excuse though. But the process of this show is so weird I don't know how to precisely translate real life to show process.

There was an interview earlier this morning (literally being commented on while I was writing this post and I didn't know what was said until after I posted) in which Josh addressed this somewhat. Josh knew that he had not yet told Andi he was in love with her until the FD and therefore he knew she was going to have to go through the entire process. I think Josh ultimately accepted the process of the show and therefore what he might have done IRL wouldn't necessarily have been the same thing he would do on a show where he accepts the "process" - especially because he knowingly created part of the process by holding back as long as he did.

As to the lie detector, Josh also explained that. He and Andi had just had a lengthy conversation about trust the week before (which was quite early in the "process") and it had taken Andi a long time to get to where she trusted Josh and then Josh went on the lie detector date and began to question all they had discussed about trust. What Josh didn't know then about the process is that the lead doesn't pick all the "date stuff" so he blamed Andi for the lie detector on the date. Personally I think this is a good example of how TPTB mess with everyone. They knew about the trust discussions and came up with the lie detector precisely because they knew it would create drama - which it did. As of right now? Josh's comment was they both lied two times and are perfect for each other.

Lucas, I appreciate all of your posts and your perspective. You are helping make this a very interesting conversation.

I do want to ask with the obvious TPTB messing with Josh and Andi and it excusing the "fight" over the lie detector. If we can use TPTB as an excuse for this fight, then why can't TPTB manipulation be involved with Nick and his attempts to contact Andi post show? So shouldn't Andi and Josh both have been a little more understanding of that? Nick and his carelessness (I can agree that he was loud and that led to him being overheard) with the plane video made him an even easier target.

I do think Josh and Andi love each other and are good for each other. I would like to see a little more compassion from them, instead of using excuses but not extending those excuses to others.

I too believe Andi told Josh about Nick and the FS in his FS. I agree with Josh not being upset and shows that he is a standup guy.

I genuinely don't care if Andi had sex with Nick, but I do think it is a valid discussion that when you are the person in power in a relationship and someone has expressed their love to you, that you have an extra responsibility to make sure that you reciprocate their feelings before you have sex with them. Since I personally think Andi did love them both when she had sex with Nick, I have no problem with her doing it. Had she simply said I did love you, but I love/loved Josh more, I would not have cared and honestly, if she had said that to begin with, I would be a lot more upset with Nick for the question.

Some have stated that they think Nick wasn't and isn't genuine. I can't tell you he was, I can only give my opinion and hope that post show he is the man I think he is. I have been wrong before, I was wrong about Jef Holm, he wasn't the man I thought he was, or at least he isn't currently. But until he shows me otherwise, I think Nick is genuine. I think the hurt over Andi acting as if she never loved or cared for him stung and the question came out from there. As for Nick questioning during taping who the next bachelor would be, well, I genuinely think he thought he was going to be Andi's F1, so to me he was wondering which of the other guys it would be. I have a feeling that conversation happens on a lot of seasons, and we only see it when the producers want us to dislike a guy for bringing it up. I think the girls have similar conversations about the next bachelorette while on the bachelor.

As a scientist I have a very analytical mind, to the point of being a little OCD at times. It makes me great at organizing fundraisers and since I have been in graduate school I have been able to help raise over $10000 for organizations that I believe in. Not everyone is like that. I am attempting to help a group take over a chili cookoff for wounded warriors that I was one of the organizers for in 2013, I have repeatedly told the new organizers what needs to be done and given them time frames, they repeatedly don't do what they say they will do. I am resigning from helping because they are driving me crazy and I am driving them crazy.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think Nick and I may be very much alike in this. I think a process out, I think of all the steps to that process and I discuss them. I probably drive other people crazy and have been told that sometimes I need to go with the flow better. I work on it, but it is a process for me always. So maybe this was Nick's way on the show, and I understand if it annoyed others, but I don't think it shows a devious nature, rather a very analytical and process oriented mind.

[Kashathediva]

I do not think anything Nick has done in response to: "am flattered" is at all disingenuous.  Not in the least. It is a politically correct thing I can see myself saying when someone says something regarding myself that I am not in the least bit interested in without trying to be rude or impolite--like thanks, but no thanks. (vs. are you out of your freaking mind--what are you trippin on, which is not so nice).   He probably does feel flattered. But that doesn't mean he might want it.

I can't say what Nick might want a season or two down the road. Brad said to people he would never do TB again and was firm about it. Then changed his mind seasons later. So things could change. But from what I understand it's not something he is considering now.

[stuckinsc]

also, in one of the scenes where the guys were sitting around talking about nick i believe they said not only that he was always strategizing but also that he was talking about who is going to be the next bachelor. i believe that if nick–who is supposedly forthright–didn't want the bach gig he would come out and say so and not play coy like the others who most definitely want the gig.

That was sort of my point. To be honest, given what Nick has told us about his dating / romance history, the show might just help him find the right person. As I recall he said he dated one girl on and off for 7 1/2 years. That's a long time even in your early 20s to stay in a relationship that isn't resolving itself one way or another. And then he got engaged (when he was 27) and almost immediately broke up which was 6 years ago. It would be nice for him to get a jump start to the right relationship and I really would not blame him if that was his thinking. But he would have been a lot better keeping the controversial thing he said private and I think if he had, he would have had a much better chance of being considered.

About the dating someone for 7 1/2 years. It seems they would have started dating in college and then continued dating afterwards. I know for me, that I grew so much during college and then again in graduate school both times. I have a few friends who have married during graduate school and some marrying during medical or other professional school and most don't last. In some cases when they really are a great match it is okay, but in others where there is the just not quite right, it has ended in divorce, I would include myself in this. It takes more strength to not rush into marriage when everyone else around you is (I did this and let others talk me out of a long engagement) and stay true to dating. Sometimes it takes a long time to let go of someone you loved but who just isn't the person you should be with for your whole life.

I find it admirable when someone doesn't give into the pressure to marry, just because they have been dating long enough that everyone else thinks they should.

I made my husband wait for over 5 years and honestly if it hadn't been for health reasons and needing insurance, he would still be waiting for the wedding. I wanted my PhD before I remarried. That was me being obstinate and finally he and my best friends convinced me to stop being stupid. This was a year ago, so see we all keep growing and changing.

[Lucas15]

The last nail in the coffin, for me, was the FS comment, had Nick not made that comment and everything else about the ATFR stayed the same, I bet you even those condemning him on here now (which I think everyone has a right to agree or disagree with, not arguing with that) would be feeling sorry for "poor Nick" and would have many more people supporting him to be the Bachelor. All IMO of course

I think you would probably win that bet.

I'm not sure how much Nick might have realized how some of his actions on the show were going to appear in the edit. I know in some past seasons where someone has gotten a terrible edit (eg Courtney) some of the other contestants were saying "Boy am I glad they didn't use some of the things I said". I suspect this is true most seasons - then can make anyone look like a villain or an angel just by what they choose to include and exclude. This season they happened to make Nick into a bit of a villain and I bet he probably didn't see that coming; if he had I can't believe he would have said or done some of the things he did.

In spite of that I think the aftertaste of the season for many people wouldn't have had such a bitter flavor if had kept his mouth buttoned on the ATFR and I would have to include some of the things he's said in interviews as well.

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