Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Bet2Win]

To make it clear ~ Members are allowed to criticize and defend Nick till the cows come home.   This is not a fan thread,  posts about how wonderful Nick is in general should be posted in the fan thread.   Offering opinions about Nick's actions, both positive and negative, are allowed in this thread.

What is not allowed is offering negative opinions about other members' opinions. Such posts will be deleted and or edited.

[eirekay]

I'm a Nick fan, but like many, I wish Andi and Josh every happiness.  I actually think they truly "get" each other and will be very happy.

We've all become pretty entrenched in our stands and reached a point where I think it would be nice to "agree to disagree".

Nick has opened up a topic that should be explored by our culture as a whole.  Bachelors who sleep with F2 might be Cads but they aren't subject the same "shaming" that Bachelorettes are.  Conversely, an female F2 who said what Nick said, IMO, would not be subjected to any of the controversy that Nick has been.  As an example, Clare pretty much outed that JuanPa had slept with both F1 and F2 and nobody screamed foul on Clare for the disclosure (JuanPa's comment to her might have negated that outcome but all the same).  The double standard is interesting.

[ironcat]

 I'm a Nick fan, but like many, I wish Andi and Josh every happiness.  I actually think they truly "get" each other and will be very happy.

We've all become pretty entrenched in our stands and reached a point where I think it would be nice to "agree to disagree".

Nick has opened up a topic that should be explored by our culture as a whole.  Bachelors who sleep with F2 might be Cads but they aren't subject the same "shaming" that Bachelorettes are.  Conversely, an female F2 who said what Nick said, IMO, would not be subjected to any of the controversy that Nick has been.  As an example, Clare pretty much outed that JuanPa had slept with both F1 and F2 and nobody screamed foul on Clare for the disclosure (JuanPa's comment to her might have negated that outcome but all the same).  The double standard is interesting.

Excellent point.  I think BOTH Nick and Andi fall victim to the double standard here, he for daring to feel rejected/used after sex, and she for daring to sleep with someone who she ultimately wasn't in love with.  It's sad that today's society is still not comfortable with deviating from the assigned gender roles.

[Relalou]

And fortunately it looks like both of them are moving on at this point! Both of them seem to have the same desire for love and the same willingness to go after it.
One door closes and another has opened for Andi with Josh, and I'm sure will open for Nick with a girl of his own.

[isittrue]

And fortunately it looks like both of them are moving on at this point!  Both of them seem to have the same desire for love and the same willingness to go after it.
One door closes and another has opened for Andi with Josh, and I'm sure will open for Nick with a girl of his own.

Yes, it is great all 3 parties are moving on with their lives. Hopefully, good things will be in store for all - that's all anyone should wish for..

[Lucas15]

Nick has opened up a topic that should be explored by our culture as a whole.  Bachelors who sleep with F2 might be Cads but they aren't subject the same "shaming" that Bachelorettes are.  Conversely, an female F2 who said what Nick said, IMO, would not be subjected to any of the controversy that Nick has been.  

The double standard is interesting.

It's sad that today's society is still not comfortable with deviating from the assigned gender roles.

After how many pages of posts back and forth isn't this really the most interesting question about the culture of today? Guys have traditionally been (almost) expected to "sow their wild oats" and it was socially accepted for "men to be men" as long as they kept it to themselves so as not to embarrass a woman. A woman who did the same thing was shamed and made to wear either an actual or figurative "Scarlet Letter". I think the traditional culture of "don't kiss and tell" was "necessary" because otherwise there would be no way for a man to find a field to sow oats in if a woman risked shame for being that field.

But I'm a guy and I feel (somewhat passionately) that women should be as free in this day and age to make a decision to sleep with whoever they wish to for whatever their reasons are and there should be no shame in doing that - the same "rights" (if you will) that men have enjoyed for centuries. Yet I still expect that a guy should keep what happens in private in private and not shame the woman and don't "feel" the same outrage when a woman (eg Clare) "kisses and tells" and "shames" the man. Why don't I feel equally outraged that Clare "outed" JPG as I do that Nick "outed" Andi? Why do I feel that a woman should have the same freedoms as a man but I hold a man to a higher standard (eg don't kiss and tell) than I do a woman?

This season has put our notions of gender equality and gender expectations to a real challenge and I'd love to see us rise to that challenge.

ETA
I also believe that everyone needs to make sure that they are on the same page but that doesn't always happen in real life and the structure of the show makes it almost impossible.

[Kashathediva]

IDK---I think what you do privately is your own business and I try not to personally regard it as gender issue. I grew up with brothers. I sowed a lot more oats than they ever dreamed that stayed between me and --me.
Today it's a different world. Everyone has to tweet how many times a day they fart. Everyone is up into everyone else' business. So privacy issues are challenging, if not impossible at times.

[Lucas15]

IDK---I think what you do privately is your own business and I try not to personally regard it as gender issue. I grew up with brothers. I sowed a lot more oats than they ever dreamed that stayed between me and --me.
Today it's a different world. Everyone has to tweet how many times a day they fart. Everyone is up into everyone else' business. So privacy issues are challenging, if not impossible at times.

And as a practical matter that's probably the way it needs to remain today because we really aren't ready as a society to accept too much openness. Even though I try to not regard it as a gender issue, there's a part of me that still tries to; I need to work on that.

The fact that everyone tells everyone else things that should be kept private doesn't change the basics that certain things should be kept private no matter how easy it is to make them public.

[pander3575]

IDK---I think what you do privately is your own business and I try not to personally regard it as gender issue. I grew up with brothers. I sowed a lot more oats than they ever dreamed that stayed between me and --me.
Today it's a different world. Everyone has to tweet how many times a day they fart. Everyone is up into everyone else' business. So privacy issues are challenging, if not impossible at times.

And as a practical matter that's probably the way it needs to remain today because we really aren't ready as a society to accept too much openness. Even though I try to not regard it as a gender issue, there's a part of me that still tries to; I need to work on that.

The fact that everyone tells everyone else things that should be kept private doesn't change the basics that certain things should be kept private no matter how easy it is to make them public.

I agree, Lucas. I didn't like it any better that Clare said what she did than anyone else including Nick or Courtney.

[Amberish]

Gender issues?

No way was Nick reaching deep down to be in touch with his famine side, Instead, IMO, he exhibited classic passive aggressive behavior. He said what he said because he wanted to level Andi and Josh --- take them both down a notch.

Question is, would Nick have done so knowing what he said only made him look like a pathetic jerk, even worst than when he blabbed loudly over the phone while sitting on a crowded plane --- something that only a few hundred would have seen on you tube, but because he intentionally violated contract and blabbed the ending of a popular reality show, tens of thousands.

Although it seems easier to understand why contestants do what they do than the leads, IMO Andi slept with her F2 because she wasn't 100% Josh until she was. Yes, he was the guy that had her attention from the moment they met and it worked out at the end, but we've seen first picks derail, for example Emily changed her focus, as did Des and Catherine wasn't on Sean's radar from the start.

[eirekay]

Gender issues?

Question is, would Nick have done so knowing what he said only made him look like a pathetic jerk, even worst than when he blabbed loudly over the phone while sitting on a crowded plane --- something that only a few hundred would have seen on you tube, but because he intentionally violated contract and blabbed the ending of a popular reality show, tens of thousands.

Although it seems easier to understand why contestants do what they do than the leads, IMO Andi slept with her F2 because she wasn't 100% Josh until she was. Yes, he was the guy that had her attention from the moment they met and it worked out at the end, but we've seen first picks derail, for example Emily changed her focus, as did Des and Catherine wasn't on Sean's radar from the start.

I don't think he looked like a "pathetic jerk". I think he asked a valid question. I'm sure that Nick watched the episodes looking for something that would clue him into where he went wrong. I can totally see Nick finding validation in watching back that his feelings for Andi were not mistaken and that Andi returned them. The majority of Andi's ITMs that were shown were glowingly positive. Her ITMs when Nick went to her after Marcus's date and again when he stole away from Brian at the Epi 6 Rose Ceremony were over the top positive. Nick noly only stewed in his loss for 10 weeks but watched on screen affirmation that he had an "amazing Connection" and he was still struggling to understand. I don't like the question he asked, but it came from an honest place.

[Ash2214]

Gender issues?

Question is, would Nick have done so knowing what he said only made him look like a pathetic jerk, even worst than when he blabbed loudly over the phone while sitting on a crowded plane --- something that only a few hundred would have seen on you tube, but because he intentionally violated contract and blabbed the ending of a popular reality show, tens of thousands.

Although it seems easier to understand why contestants do what they do than the leads, IMO Andi slept with her F2 because she wasn't 100% Josh until she was. Yes, he was the guy that had her attention from the moment they met and it worked out at the end, but we've seen first picks derail, for example Emily changed her focus, as did Des and Catherine wasn't on Sean's radar from the start.

I don't think he looked like a "pathetic jerk".  I think he asked a valid question.  I'm sure that Nick watched the episodes looking for something that would clue him into where he went wrong.  I can totally see Nick finding validation in watching back that his feelings for Andi were not mistaken and that Andi returned them.  The majority of Andi's ITMs that were shown were glowingly positive.  Her ITMs when Nick went to her after Marcus's date and again when he stole away from Brian at the Epi 6 Rose Ceremony were over the top positive.  Nick noly only stewed in his loss for 10 weeks but watched on screen affirmation that he had an "amazing Connection" and he was still struggling to understand.  I don't like the question he asked, but it came from an honest place.

We'll never know where it was coming from, but I think for Nick, if he didn't say it after Andi told him she was never in love with him, but did have feelings for him and knew she would have had the same relationship with him if she were to do the show again and if he didn't take a couple of minutes to actually say it, I think more people would have believed it came from a genuine place. I obviously don't know what he was thinking, but in my opinion, the way he presented it just made it seem like he was ready to hurt someone.

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