Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[umngirl]

Moved from Nick Viall Fan Thread

Sorry I am responding a little late on this aspect of things, but I had to rewatch the entire season and go over the timeline of everything on SM to try and reconcile what the heck really happened this season.  I don't feel certain, but I have a hunch my theory may be correct.  So here goes.  I preface this by stating that it is no secret that I am a huge Nick fan and that is why I am here, but my comments should not be construed as criticism of Andi, as that is not my intent, and I apologize in advance if it comes across that way.

I feel confident asserting that Andi did fall in love with Nick.  He knows it, she knows it, and deep down Josh knows it too.  She was going to choose Nick as her F1 and then changed her mind at the last minute, as Nick suggested in the plane video.  But why did she change her mind?  Well, I don't think Andi chose Josh over Nick, I think Andi chose her career over Nick.  Andi actually practiced law for what, like a year, in an overworked underpaid capacity.  Her undergrad degree is in communications and her ambitions really lie in media/entertainment.  She probably went to law school because she saw it as a respected, well paid profession while her career in media/entertainment wasn't getting anywhere or perhaps she had ambitions of specializing in that sector of the legal field.

She was initially on leave from her Asst. DA job, and in choosing Nick, she probably would have returned to practicing law (in Atlanta or somewhere else) after the whirlwind of Bachlorette media commitments died down in a few months.  I don't think Nick would have necessarily been on board with having a media profession as his full time occupation for the long haul, as he is already established, successful, and well compensated in the field of Information Technology.  Andi successfully launching a new career in media/entertainment was somewhat dependent on having a fiance by her side.  Would Nick actually propose despite his fear of rejection and being embarassed?  And if so, would he sign on to join her in this new career(s) vision?

If she chose Josh, she had the best vehicle to realizing her vision, her mission, and she had little doubt that he would propose.  Furthermore, Josh was working as a Financial Services Rep, a very entry level, low paying position.  He would not hesitate to pursue a career in media/entertainment (by her side and otherwise) and probably held similar hopes for himself (and if all else failed, he would be happy to be the next Bachelor).  They were both more viable and marketable in this regard as a couple.  While spending more time with Josh, and more importantly his family (during the HTD), she saw how well she could benefit from this association.  Josh's brother Aaron was about to be drafted into the NFL and his girlfriend is a reporter with FOX29 in Philadelphia!

She had fallen hard for Nick and knew she had found The One in him.  She really did want to follow her heart and pull the trigger with Nick, which is why they connected intimately in
the Fantasy Suite (she just couldn't stop herself from experiencing that passion).  I think the timing of Aaron Murray being drafted, on was it May 9th?, is very telling and aligns perfectly with her ultimate decision to shift from Nick to Josh.  Somehow it was communicated to Josh, and then he to Andi, that Aaron was indeed drafted into the NFL, despite the supposed media blackout during this time.  It was then Andi decided to follow her head and not her heart, and made the decision to put her career before her love for Nick.  She had been pondering it for several days, which is when you see her pulling back.  Once she made up her mind for sure, she was brutal and expedient in her undertaking of what was necessary to bring it home.  Everything since then has been rewriting history, as it is corrrectly being referred to.  Andi is 27 years old, and this may have been the correct decision for her from a career standpoint.  But I suspect that down the line she will discover that Nick was one in a gazillon and she will never ever find another man who will measure up to him.  A certain type of heartache will result and linger indefinitely perhaps.

She and Josh are making the very best of the situation, at least to our eyes, and it could be a loving and fulfilling alliance which becomes a long and happy marriage, perhaps permanent.  Time will tell that story.  But by the standard definition of "the right reason" for doing the show being to find a great love, I think Andi was there for the wrong reasons.  In spite of that, she did find her great love in Nick.  Unfortunately for him (and really all three of them I think) she didn't recognize that great love as being the ultimate prize. The real tragedy to my mind.

I'm not gonna really comment on the whole Andi fell in love with Nick thing because frankly, I don't think it's true at all. I do want to comment on the proposal and Aaron being drafted timeline. Aaron was drafted the day AFTER the proposal not before it.

[Cecilia]

Moved from Nick Viall Fan Thread

Sorry I am responding a little late on this aspect of things, but I had to rewatch the entire season and go over the timeline of everything on SM to try and reconcile what the heck really happened this season.  I don't feel certain, but I have a hunch my theory may be correct.  So here goes.  I preface this by stating that it is no secret that I am a huge Nick fan and that is why I am here, but my comments should not be construed as criticism of Andi, as that is not my intent, and I apologize in advance if it comes across that way.

I feel confident asserting that Andi did fall in love with Nick.  He knows it, she knows it, and deep down Josh knows it too.  She was going to choose Nick as her F1 and then changed her mind at the last minute, as Nick suggested in the plane video.  But why did she change her mind?  Well, I don't think Andi chose Josh over Nick, I think Andi chose her career over Nick.  Andi actually practiced law for what, like a year, in an overworked underpaid capacity.  Her undergrad degree is in communications and her ambitions really lie in media/entertainment.  She probably went to law school because she saw it as a respected, well paid profession while her career in media/entertainment wasn't getting anywhere or perhaps she had ambitions of specializing in that sector of the legal field.

She was initially on leave from her Asst. DA job, and in choosing Nick, she probably would have returned to practicing law (in Atlanta or somewhere else) after the whirlwind of Bachlorette media commitments died down in a few months.  I don't think Nick would have necessarily been on board with having a media profession as his full time occupation for the long haul, as he is already established, successful, and well compensated in the field of Information Technology.  Andi successfully launching a new career in media/entertainment was somewhat dependent on having a fiance by her side.  Would Nick actually propose despite his fear of rejection and being embarassed?  And if so, would he sign on to join her in this new career(s) vision?

If she chose Josh, she had the best vehicle to realizing her vision, her mission, and she had little doubt that he would propose.  Furthermore, Josh was working as a Financial Services Rep, a very entry level, low paying position.  He would not hesitate to pursue a career in media/entertainment (by her side and otherwise) and probably held similar hopes for himself (and if all else failed, he would be happy to be the next Bachelor).  They were both more viable and marketable in this regard as a couple.  While spending more time with Josh, and more importantly his family (during the HTD), she saw how well she could benefit from this association.  Josh's brother Aaron was about to be drafted into the NFL and his girlfriend is a reporter with FOX29 in Philadelphia!

She had fallen hard for Nick and knew she had found The One in him.  She really did want to follow her heart and pull the trigger with Nick, which is why they connected intimately in
the Fantasy Suite (she just couldn't stop herself from experiencing that passion).  I think the timing of Aaron Murray being drafted, on was it May 9th?, is very telling and aligns perfectly with her ultimate decision to shift from Nick to Josh.  Somehow it was communicated to Josh, and then he to Andi, that Aaron was indeed drafted into the NFL, despite the supposed media blackout during this time.  It was then Andi decided to follow her head and not her heart, and made the decision to put her career before her love for Nick.  She had been pondering it for several days, which is when you see her pulling back.  Once she made up her mind for sure, she was brutal and expedient in her undertaking of what was necessary to bring it home.  Everything since then has been rewriting history, as it is corrrectly being referred to.  Andi is 27 years old, and this may have been the correct decision for her from a career standpoint.  But I suspect that down the line she will discover that Nick was one in a gazillon and she will never ever find another man who will measure up to him.  A certain type of heartache will result and linger indefinitely perhaps.

She and Josh are making the very best of the situation, at least to our eyes, and it could be a loving and fulfilling alliance which becomes a long and happy marriage, perhaps permanent.  Time will tell that story.  But by the standard definition of "the right reason" for doing the show being to find a great love, I think Andi was there for the wrong reasons.  In spite of that, she did find her great love in Nick.  Unfortunately for him (and really all three of them I think) she didn't recognize that great love as being the ultimate prize. The real tragedy to my mind.

Interesting thoughts I feel like it may be giving Andi too much credit but it's definitely a new analysis here!

[MiaHawk]

So "I would be flattered" was perceived as Nick considering the idea of being The Bach?
OK ... my take on it ...
It is flattering if TPTB considers you for a LEAD.
Even more once they offer you ... a DEAL.
Because the franchise of that much TV-success when offering you that important role are basically making a business deal. They are showing the interest of making you their new business partner. Which means they respect you, but most importantly, they value that you'll be a good investment in their future, by bringing new viewers, keeping the old one, add to the value of the show and bring money in the house.
Sounds so romantic.   
So yeah, it's flattering ... to know that someone who has been in this business of "image projections", "game of the illusion", "high quality light entertainment" for long ... thinks that you are a person who can hold it together ... the game from start to finish, a play of each week through the filming, to be a good sport before, during and after, despite knowing that this business makes you and breaks you by their likings, meaning they let you in and kick you out for the entertainment purpose any time they want, so with the deal, they are really saying that they see you a a great spoke person, one who will know how to advertize the show, speak highly of them, praise them and give them all the credit they deserve (because it's all about the image they need to maintain), that they see you a lead who will know how to juggle many relationships and if not, at least pretend, so yes, the acting skills and being a good salesperson helps ... because at the end, it's you first-hand, to be selling the story to the audience ... and in all of that you need to be believable.
So it's flattering, tho' I wouldn't do it for a million, let alone for a quarter of or less, but it's not about the money ...it's about your (mine) freedom.
By signing that deal ... you're selling yourself.
Literally selling yourself.
And I'm not going to play a moral advocate here about this ... because frankly, each of us has own reasons to be inclined to accept or not ... but the real question would be:
What do you gain from it and is it worth it?
For someone who is happy with their existing life, they might not need any change... someone else might want to shake things up ... so at the bottom, it's up to your current state of mind and whether you're satisfied with the life you're leading.

So, I don't know what Nick really thinks about the franchise and the role of TB, but whatever the standard answer on this kind of question is, he answered as any good businessman would do.
Funny, how he answered that in his 3 TV-interviews ... but he is quoted in the press media as if he would be talking to them directly. Yeah right ... I just love good media manipulation, love it ... then of course each manipulation brings the repercussions ... but the media isn't guilty of anything ... they just report what's been going around ... it's up to us, yeah people, it's all our fault.  

The age old dilemma: Selling your soul for a pound of flesh.   

Well, it's been scientifically postulated and experiments have been done that estimate the weight of the human soul is 21 grams or about 3/4 ounce.
So, maybe selling 3/4 ounce of soul to get 16 ounces of flesh is a good deal???   J/K

[albean99]

I'm a huge Chris L fan and I love the story where he turned down riches for love. I don't think he was seriously considering doing the show because of how they edited him with his mom's death and didn't want to put his family through it again. Whatever the real story is, he's doing incredibly well now with a wonderful wife and a flourishing career. I have hopes that Nick will find his own Peyton when the time's right.

Interesting post, knittypnut. I remember a magazine said that very thing and CH also said the theme of the ending of the season was head vs heart so you never know. Those who saw the love story with Andi & Josh won't agree but really Andi showed a lot with both guys so she's the only one who knows for sure. She'll never admit anything other than what she's already said and I think it's all for the best either way.

[happygolucky]

The age old dilemma: Selling your soul for a pound of flesh.   

Well, it's been scientifically postulated and experiments have been done that estimate the weight of the human soul is 21 grams or about 3/4 ounce.
So, maybe selling 3/4 ounce of soul to get 16 ounces of flesh is a good deal???    J/K

Oh I love you girls, you kill me with these comments    

Murphy, stuck ... I love your posts ... I've managed to sneak to my computer for an hour, while my family is out and I'm making a mess in the kitchen ...

BTW, Knittypnut ... you've just awakened another itch in me to write again ... I'll leave it a bit to broil ... sink in ... looking forward for the reaction of the rest and the next time around, I'll join the debate.

[Kashathediva]

Yay Chris L!!! Great example to follow.   

If you appreciated that abbreviated story you might appreciate the fuller version even more. They pursued Chris (which we all knew) and Chris kept saying "No". Then they'd come back with a bigger offer (of course Chris was standing on principle, not trying to negotiate a better deal). Their "final" offer was $500,000 and Chris said "No" to that one also; but this was also about the time he met Peyton. I guess "final" wasn't really final because they came back with $1,000,000, to which Chris replied with the picture. Afterwards Chris once referred to Peyton as his "million dollar girl" and unless you knew the back story that might not have made much sense but if you knew the back story, Chris gave up $1,000,000 for his principles and to marry Peyton. Yay Chris L!!! indeed.

Thanks. Pretty sure this fuller story made the rounds on various forums. Chris is a stand up guy who got a stand up gal. I can't think of anyone in all the years I've been around that has a negative things to say about either.

[Lucas15]

Moved from Nick Viall Fan Thread

I feel confident asserting that Andi did fall in love with Nick.  He knows it, she knows it, and deep down Josh knows it too.  She was going to choose Nick as her F1 and then changed her mind at the last minute, as Nick suggested in the plane video.  But why did she change her mind?  Well, I don't think Andi chose Josh over Nick, I think Andi chose her career over Nick.  Andi actually practiced law for what, like a year, in an overworked underpaid capacity.  Her undergrad degree is in communications and her ambitions really lie in media/entertainment.  She probably went to law school because she saw it as a respected, well paid profession while her career in media/entertainment wasn't getting anywhere or perhaps she had ambitions of specializing in that sector of the legal field.

First of all, thanks to knittypnut for this thought provoking post and to GA for bringing it here where it would be easy to find (and GA my post probably belongs in an Andi thread more so than here, but I'm putting it here for the same reason you copied knittypnut's post here). Her post certainly illustrates some different perspectives on why certain things happened, but I think there are alternative explanations as well. One of the more interesting questions to me is "Why did Andi make love to Nick? What was going on in her mind when she made that decision?" Additionally IMHO, there are some some fundamental questions posed to anyone looking for love that Andi was wrestling with at the time: Do you follow your heart, which may lead you into a relationship that's really bad for you? Do you follow your brain and let it lead you to a logical choice but which may not be exactly what your heart wants? Can you ever find that ideal "love" where your heart gets what it most desires and your brain tells you is safe and right and good for you? Does such an ideal situation ever exist?

I come up with at least one other plausible explanation that (hopefully) can be equally thought provoking:

At the time of the FD Andi was conflicted and one measure of her conflict can be found in her breakup with Chris S. During that conversation she said her heart and her brain were in conflict and that she felt like an idot for not feeling things in her heart that her brain said she should feel, but she acknowledged that because she didn't feel those things for Chris in her heart (no matter how hard she tried) she had to let him go. I believe that inner conflict between heart and brain was very real to her (which is exactly why she brought it up with Chris) but I don't believe it was resolved then and there because she had a bigger choice to make shortly - Josh or Nick. Her breakup with Chris just goes to show her state of mind and set the stage for a resolution of the inner conflicts Andi was facing at the time.

I believe her heart was more with Josh. He was the one who was just her type, who offered the sports-centric life (in Atlanta) she craved and she had been chasing Josh all season long (and most of the body language readers saw that very clearly). But that was a big risk for her; Josh was the guy who she feared could break her heart and his type was the type that had cheated on her already. And then she had Nick. Her brain was telling her he would not break her heart; everything she knew about Nick was that he was loyal and could fiercely hold on to her. She had feelings for Nick for sure and (at least to her brain) Nick was not a risk, he was the safe choice, and I think she was prepared to make that safe choice (especially because at this time she didn't know exactly how Josh felt about her). So when she went into the fantasy suite with Nick she was prepared to follow her brain over her heart and pick Nick. If that was her mentality and her solution to resolve the heart versus brain inner conflict, why would she not make love with Nick? No reason I can really think of, so she did.

Then she went into the fantasy suite with Josh, and Josh told her that he was in love with her and wanted to marry her and at some point they also made love, and her world turned upside down. Now she has a real dilemma because the heart versus brain conflict has a different resolution; the risk component of choosing Josh was both suddenly reduced and suddenly exponentially increased because she had already made love with Nick. I believe Andi had to assume that sooner or later that would come out - perhaps because her conscience compelled her to bring it out, or the framework of the show would bring it out (which it did). So she told Josh about it; better then (in private) and find out (while she still had another option) if that would or wouldn't affect how Josh felt about her. If Josh couldn't or didn't accept it, she could still pick Nick.

That conversation in the fantasy suite with Josh over a bottle of wine that Andi has told us about (when she suddenly realized she was with her best friend and when she realized she was in love with Josh) was not about the weather, it was about what happened between Andi and Nick in the fantasy suite. Josh understood and was OK with what she did and it didn't affect the love that he had for her nor his desire to marry her and spend the rest of his life with her. That "light bulb" moment for Andi was when all the pieces fell into place for her and she was finally able to resolve the heart / brain conflict. The one her heart wanted suddenly became someone she now believed she could trust and tell anything to - even if what she had to tell might require love to accept all things about her.

And the rest is pretty much history.

[vivi2]

Moved from Nick Viall Fan Thread

I feel confident asserting that Andi did fall in love with Nick.  He knows it, she knows it, and deep down Josh knows it too.  She was going to choose Nick as her F1 and then changed her mind at the last minute, as Nick suggested in the plane video.  But why did she change her mind?  Well, I don't think Andi chose Josh over Nick, I think Andi chose her career over Nick.  Andi actually practiced law for what, like a year, in an overworked underpaid capacity.  Her undergrad degree is in communications and her ambitions really lie in media/entertainment.  She probably went to law school because she saw it as a respected, well paid profession while her career in media/entertainment wasn't getting anywhere or perhaps she had ambitions of specializing in that sector of the legal field.

First of all, thanks to knittypnut for this thought provoking post and to GA for bringing it here where it would be easy to find (and GA my post probably belongs in an Andi thread more so than here, but I'm putting it here for the same reason you copied knittypnut's post here). Her post certainly illustrates some different perspectives on why certain things happened, but I think there are alternative explanations as well. One of the more interesting questions to me is "Why did Andi make love to Nick? What was going on in her mind when she made that decision?" Additionally IMHO, there are some some fundamental questions posed to anyone looking for love that Andi was wrestling with at the time: Do you follow your heart, which may lead you into a relationship that's really bad for you? Do you follow your brain and let it lead you to a logical choice but which may not be exactly what your heart wants? Can you ever find that ideal "love" where your heart gets what it most desires and your brain tells you is safe and right and good for you? Does such an ideal situation ever exist?

I come up with at least one other plausible explanation that (hopefully) can be equally thought provoking:

At the time of the FD Andi was conflicted and one measure of her conflict can be found in her breakup with Chris S. During that conversation she said her heart and her brain were in conflict and that she felt like an idot for not feeling things in her heart that her brain said she should feel, but she acknowledged that because she didn't feel those things for Chris in her heart (no matter how hard she tried) she had to let him go. I believe that inner conflict between heart and brain was very real to her (which is exactly why she brought it up with Chris) but I don't believe it was resolved then and there because she had a bigger choice to make shortly - Josh or Nick. Her breakup with Chris just goes to show her state of mind and set the stage for a resolution of the inner conflicts Andi was facing at the time.

I believe her heart was more with Josh. He was the one who was just her type, who offered the sports-centric life (in Atlanta) she craved and she had been chasing Josh all season long (and most of the body language readers saw that very clearly). But that was a big risk for her; Josh was the guy who she feared could break her heart and his type was the type that had cheated on her already. And then she had Nick. Her brain was telling her he would not break her heart; everything she knew about Nick was that he was loyal and could fiercely hold on to her. She had feelings for Nick for sure and (at least to her brain) Nick was not a risk, he was the safe choice, and I think she was prepared to make that safe choice (especially because at this time she didn't know exactly how Josh felt about her). So when she went into the fantasy suite with Nick she was prepared to follow her brain over her heart and pick Nick. If that was her mentality and her solution to resolve the heart versus brain inner conflict, why would she not make love with Nick? No reason I can really think of, so she did.

Then she went into the fantasy suite with Josh, and Josh told her that he was in love with her and wanted to marry her and at some point they also made love, and her world turned upside down. Now she has a real dilemma because the heart versus brain conflict has a different resolution; the risk component of choosing Josh was both suddenly reduced and suddenly exponentially increased because she had already made love with Nick. I believe Andi had to assume that sooner or later that would come out - perhaps because her conscience compelled her to bring it out, or the framework of the show would bring it out (which it did). So she told Josh about it; better then (in private) and find out (while she still had another option) if that would or wouldn't affect how Josh felt about her. If Josh couldn't or didn't accept it, she could still pick Nick.

That conversation in the fantasy suite with Josh over a bottle of wine that Andi has told us about (when she suddenly realized she was with her best friend and when she realized she was in love with Josh) was not about the weather, it was about what happened between Andi and Nick in the fantasy suite. Josh understood and was OK with what she did and it didn't affect the love that he had for her nor his desire to marry her and spend the rest of his life with her. That "light bulb" moment for Andi was when all the pieces fell into place for her and she was finally able to resolve the heart / brain conflict. The one her heart wanted suddenly became someone she now believed she could trust and tell anything to - even if what she had to tell might require love to accept all things about her.

And the rest is pretty much history.

Lucas, your "theory" is much more believable for me than the others. Thank you.

[Alanna]

Andi just gave an interview where it sounds like she basically confirmed Lucas' theory- she was afraid Josh would leave her until he told her he loved her when they were alone. Obviously, it's up to the individual to believe her or not. I see no reason she would lie and her post-show behavior with Josh certainly shows to me she's telling the truth.

If she was truly in love with Nick and chose Josh for the fame, then she's been whacked around with the stupid stick a little too much and then drenched with delusion water if she thought this was going to work out for her. Wouldn't Josh eventually feel that she's using him and bail? Not to mention, she's doing a bad job of gaining fame by staying in atl and playing with the dog 24/7. Maybe she's a lazy girl though, Andi, not the dog . But ok, we can see how this goes. Any theory is as good as the other.

[stuckinsc]

I know I am one of the few here who think you can love two people at once, since I have done it.

I do believe Andi loved both Nick and Josh. But at the end of the day, she loved Josh more and he was more of what she needed.

I think a media career would have worked in Chicago as well as Atlanta or LA.

I do believe in the end she chose the one she wanted more and the right one for her.

[lavenderred]

Great post Lucas. And the unbiased truth IMO.   

And boy did Tricky Nicky prove to be the childish opposite of this!!  :cutesmile!: 

Her brain was telling her he would not break her heart; everything she knew about Nick was that he was loyal and could fiercely hold on to her.

[Guest]

Yay Chris L!!! Great example to follow.   

If you appreciated that abbreviated story you might appreciate the fuller version even more. They pursued Chris (which we all knew) and Chris kept saying "No". Then they'd come back with a bigger offer (of course Chris was standing on principle, not trying to negotiate a better deal). Their "final" offer was $500,000 and Chris said "No" to that one also; but this was also about the time he met Peyton. I guess "final" wasn't really final because they came back with $1,000,000, to which Chris replied with the picture. Afterwards Chris once referred to Peyton as his "million dollar girl" and unless you knew the back story that might not have made much sense but if you knew the back story, Chris gave up $1,000,000 for his principles and to marry Peyton. Yay Chris L!!! indeed.

Thanks. Pretty sure this fuller story made the rounds on various forums. Chris is a stand up guy who got a stand up gal. I can't think of anyone in all the years I've been around that has a negative things to say about either.

IA.. They are definitely 2 of my favorites. I hadn't heard the million dollar story. Love it! I wasn't a member of this board back then, but I remember that on the motherboard, right after Ali's season ended, there was a lot of discussion that Peyton would be a great match for Chris. It seemed obvious even before it happened. They seem like the perfect pairing. Wonder if they'll start a family soon.

@knitty... I like your theory because of all the things she said to Nick on the LCD, but it came out afterwards that she discussed which ring to pick with Josh in the FS.

@lucas - Doesn't it seem odd that Josh broke up with a gf for kissing another, but would have been ok with Andi having sex with Nick? He was already shown clearly annoyed that she wasn't trusting him with the lie detector test. Having sex with Nick because she STILL didn't trust in Josh is a way bigger slap in the face.

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