Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[Sable]

The question Nick asked, although worded as a question, really functioned more like a statement, IMO.   I wonder if Nick even expected Andi to give him an explanation; personally, I don't think so, because he HAD to have realized that the commotion caused by dropping such a bomb wouldn't encourage helpful sympathetic discussion on Andi's part.  He could have just gotten his point across by saying that he wished she hadn't chosen to sleep with him if she knew she wasn't in love with him, but I suppose he would have gotten even more flack for that comment.

It's funny, because the answer to that question has actually been posited on this board repeatedly by several posters, myself included.  I know some don't buy it, and think that Andi is just a selfish bitch, end of story, which is their right, but there is a credible explanation for Andi's actions/decisions (well, credible for the bizarre circumstances and regulations of this show, although it wouldn't be credible in the real world), which even Andi kind of gave in subsequent interviews about needing to take the dating process through all the steps until the end in order to know she was making the right decision.  IMO, although she knew at the time of Nick's FD that she wasn't in love with him YET, she didn't know for sure that she still wouldn't fall in love with him later, but I don't think, based on all the stuff that happened post show to piss her off, she was EVER going to give Nick the satisfaction of saying something along those lines.  

With all the talk about equality (or lack of it) between the sexes here, one thing to keep in mind is that this show is not set up for there to be equality among the participants.  The lead basically has more rights than the suitors, that's just the way it is.  The premise of the show is for THE LEAD to get their love story, however that can be accomplished, not for the suitors to get theirs, and that's why the suitors may end up feeling used and lied to, whether they're male or female.  Nature of the beast.

I also want to address Andi's claim that if Josh hadn't been cast, she would have walked away with nobody; I believe that is what SHE wants to believe, but not necessarily true.  I think she would have picked Nick, and it would have fallen apart quickly once she was out of the bubble because they really aren't compatible, just like so many other final couples in the past.  But based on how happy she is now with Josh, and especially on how much the two of them detest Nick, does anyone really expect her to admit to that now?  And the leads pretty much ALL say the same thing, because it's not really a question you CAN answer any other way at the time without opening a whole nother can of worms.

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement. There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power. The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power. I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go. Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick. That was a major tuning point for me. I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

[eirekay]

The question Nick asked, although worded as a question, really functioned more like a statement, IMO.   I wonder if Nick even expected Andi to give him an explanation; personally, I don't think so, because he HAD to have realized that the commotion caused by dropping such a bomb wouldn't encourage helpful sympathetic discussion on Andi's part.  He could have just gotten his point across by saying that he wished she hadn't chosen to sleep with him if she knew she wasn't in love with him, but I suppose he would have gotten even more flack for that comment.

It's funny, because the answer to that question has actually been posited on this board repeatedly by several posters, myself included.  I know some don't buy it, and think that Andi is just a selfish bitch, end of story, which is their right, but there is a credible explanation for Andi's actions/decisions (well, credible for the bizarre circumstances and regulations of this show, although it wouldn't be credible in the real world), which even Andi kind of gave in subsequent interviews about needing to take the dating process through all the steps until the end in order to know she was making the right decision.  IMO, although she knew at the time of Nick's FD that she wasn't in love with him YET, she didn't know for sure that she still wouldn't fall in love with him later, but I don't think, based on all the stuff that happened post show to piss her off, she was EVER going to give Nick the satisfaction of saying something along those lines.  

With all the talk about equality (or lack of it) between the sexes here, one thing to keep in mind is that this show is not set up for there to be equality among the participants.  The lead basically has more rights than the suitors, that's just the way it is.  The premise of the show is for THE LEAD to get their love story, however that can be accomplished, not for the suitors to get theirs, and that's why the suitors may end up feeling used and lied to, whether they're male or female.  Nature of the beast.

I also want to address Andi's claim that if Josh hadn't been cast, she would have walked away with nobody; I believe that is what SHE wants to believe, but not necessarily true.  I think she would have picked Nick, and it would have fallen apart quickly once she was out of the bubble because they really aren't compatible, just like so many other final couples in the past.  But based on how happy she is now with Josh, and especially on how much the two of them detest Nick, does anyone really expect her to admit to that now?  And the leads pretty much ALL say the same thing, because it's not really a question you CAN answer any other way at the time without opening a whole nother can of worms.

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

With regard to the bolded - I would argue that even that isn't true.  I've heard several contestants say that they wanted to leave sooner  Frank, Brooks, even Sharleen have said that they were "persuaded" to stay.

[BohemianNika]

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

I can't recall another F2 trying to contact the lead several times before ATFR (personally and via letter) and thus potentially making the lead feel like F2 is on a mission to get them back (not saying it was Nick's intention). And let's not forget about the unfortunate airplane video - I totally understand that he was hurting, but he did say some nasty things about Josh. All this combined probably resulted in Andi's attitude towards Nick. However, there was nothing she said that I would ever consider as 'spitting vinegar'.

[Kashathediva]

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

I can't recall another F2 trying to contact the lead several times before ATFR (personally and via letter) and thus potentially making the lead feel like F2 is on a mission to get them back (not saying it was Nick's intention). And let's not forget about the unfortunate airplane video - I totally understand that he was hurting, but he did say some nasty things about Josh. All this combined probably resulted in Andi's attitude towards Nick. However, there was nothing she said that I would ever consider as 'spitting vinegar'.

We will never know all the manipulations and tricks involved by TPTB to get the end result.   Not much surprises me when it comes to mind games and this franchise.
With Nick being let go before the FRC--do we know he was aware of MeandI definitely choosing Josh? Was Nick allowed that info? Or was he allowed to believe he still had a chance? Did someone plant the seed of the Jason/Molly scenario even prior to his great plane debacle? If he was allowed to believe he still had a chance from the time he was let go --did it lead to what we saw? IDK. I seriously don't.   
How would Nick had known MeandI was on her way to Mexico? TPTB had to have contacted him. Then we have photo proof a producer was out visiting Nick prior to MTN.   
Too many questions for me and it does not matter now. I've moved on. :hidingchair 
I just have to think with the psych profile of the main and f2 and all the great manipulations, it was a perfect storm. Too bad the ratings didn't reflect it.   

[eirekay]

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

I can't recall another F2 trying to contact the lead several times before ATFR (personally and via letter) and thus potentially making the lead feel like F2 is on a mission to get them back (not saying it was Nick's intention). And let's not forget about the unfortunate airplane video - I totally understand that he was hurting, but he did say some nasty things about Josh. All this combined probably resulted in Andi's attitude towards Nick. However, there was nothing she said that I would ever consider as 'spitting vinegar'.

I think the "spitting vinegar" is more in response to Andi's general demeanor on the ATFR. She did "spit" out the words "I never told said "I love you". I was careful not to say those words." as if that made all her actions okay. It might have been better if Andi had come out and told Nick that it hurt her to see him in so much pain. Just that acknowledgement would have been helpful IMO to Nick.

Other F2 have tried to contact the Lead. Arie flew to SC to see Emily but then thought better of it and left his journal on her doorstep for her to read. The airplane video is unfortunate, but given that Nick had just been dumped, his choice of words could have been much harsher.

[luvlady345]

Well the ratings for most of the bachelorette doesn't reflect it, unfortunately... Even the worse bachelor have higher ratings than the best bachelorette whomever that is for the person, it's really sad that women don't rally for other women, oh well....

[beader]

In reference to Nick's words on the video, I think what was shown on the show was pretty much as he described them. For someone who had just been dumped, I think he was pretty calm about the whole description. And I love Cheetos.   

[luvlady345]

Yeah Arie might have flown to NC, but it wasn't on going like Nick the airplane video, the letter, trying to contact her in Mexico and the MTA and he said that it was for closure but the letter told a different story he was pining and wanted a second chance, saying her choice was wrong etc... So yeah this is different from any other F2....

[luvlady345]

In reference to Nick's words on the video, I think what was shown on the show was pretty much as he described them.  For someone who had  just been dumped, I think he was pretty calm about the whole description.  And I love Cheetos.    

Nothing Nick said on that video was accurate, as far as what was shown on the show.... It's was so inaccurate as far as what was shown, I felt embarrassed for Nick because his perception of the Josh and Andi relationship was so far from the truth it was ridiculous...

[Sable]

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

I can't recall another F2 trying to contact the lead several times before ATFR (personally and via letter) and thus potentially making the lead feel like F2 is on a mission to get them back (not saying it was Nick's intention). And let's not forget about the unfortunate airplane video - I totally understand that he was hurting, but he did say some nasty things about Josh. All this combined probably resulted in Andi's attitude towards Nick. However, there was nothing she said that I would ever consider as 'spitting vinegar'.

Both Sean and Arie tried contacting Emily after their season. Arie went so far as to fly to Emily's home and leave the journal he kept during his time on The Bachelorette on her door step. Sean got Emily's phone number from a mutual friend and tried calling Emily. So trying to contact the lead for closure is not unprecedented. Nick did not actually try to contact Andi directly, if he even tried at all. It was said on ATFR that he tried to contact her via Chris Harrison one time when she was in Mexico and then he went to the MTA taping, which has "producer-driven" all over it, imo. I am actually confused if Nick even tried to contact her at all. The day after Nick appeared on E! News and was interviewed by Ali Fedotowsky, Ali had a segment on the show and said she spoke to Andi by phone and Andi told her that Nick had never tried to contact her. So which is it? Either he tried to contact her or he didn't. I'd really love to have an answer to this. If Nick didn't try to contact her, then TPTB made him pay dearly again with the horrible edit because if he truly didn't try to contact her, then they made him appear to be a stalker for nothing but drama.

I don't even know how I feel about the plane video. On the one hand he thought he was having a private conversation with his parents. I know he was in a public place and talking loudly, but I doubt he thought people would figure out who he was and put 2 and 2 together. I don't think what he said was really all that bad considering he had just been blindsided and dumped. I think many of the F2's from seasons past have probably said much, much worse about their F1 and their choice. Would Andi and Josh (or anyone from the season) want their phone conversation taped and played all over the internet? Yes, Nick should have been more careful talking in public, but he was the heartbroken F2, and I do always cut the F2 from all the seasons a lot of slack.

IMO, Andi did come out on ATFR spitting vinegar. She had a horrible attitude and if looks could kill.. Most the the leads come out and they are very apologetic to their F2 and feel bad for hurting them. The vibe I got from Andi is that she was so irritated that she even had to speak to Nick. Just as somebody has to be taken to the F2 (unfortunately for Nick it was him this year), the lead has to talk to their F2 at ATFR also. If Andi was mad at Nick for trying to contact her - well, Emily showed kindness and compassion toward Arie and Sean on her ATFR and MTA respectively even though both of them tried to contact her after the show. If Andi was mad at Nick for the plane video - well, Andi could have shown a little compassion about that and realized that Nick probably said what he said because he was hurting terribly after being let go with basically no closure expect a shoulder shrug. When Nick asked Andi 'why' in the finale he asked something along the lines of 'is this about us or another person?'. All Andi gave him was a shoulder shrug. Perhaps if she had said it was about another person he wouldn't have tried to contact her because he would have gotten his closure?

[albean99]

Maybe a f2 hasn't done exactly this but a f3 has come back and proposed. I might agree that it would be a problem if Nick had tried to do any of this on his own but it was always through a producer. Pretty harmless imo.

I need to stop commenting on this because it was so long ago & I really don't care anymore. I'm enjoying MAFS so much more.  :Nod:

[Sable]

I so agree w/the bolded part of your statement.  There is such an inequality in the relationships between the lead and their contestants because the lead almost has all the power.  The contestants sill have the free will to leave if they want to, but the lead basically holds all the rest of the power.   I know that Sharleen spoke a lot about the power inequality in this type of setting and that being part of what made it such an unnatural experience for her. I think precisely because the lead has all the power and basically had to use, lie to and lead on all the other contestants on their season is the very reason why the lead is obligated (imo) to give full and complete closure to the contestants that they are letting go.  Andi came out during ATFR spitting vinegar before she even began speaking to Nick.  That was a major tuning point for me.  I can't recall another lead that acted in a similar fashion.

I can't recall another F2 trying to contact the lead several times before ATFR (personally and via letter) and thus potentially making the lead feel like F2 is on a mission to get them back (not saying it was Nick's intention). And let's not forget about the unfortunate airplane video - I totally understand that he was hurting, but he did say some nasty things about Josh. All this combined probably resulted in Andi's attitude towards Nick. However, there was nothing she said that I would ever consider as 'spitting vinegar'.

I think the "spitting vinegar" is more in response to Andi's general demeanor on the ATFR.  She did "spit" out the words "I never told said "I love you". I was careful not to say those words." as if that made all her actions okay.  It might have been better if Andi had come out and told Nick that it hurt her to see him in so much pain.  Just that acknowledgement would have been helpful IMO to Nick.

Other F2 have tried to contact the Lead.  Arie flew to SC to see Emily but then thought better of it and left his journal on her doorstep for her to read.  The airplane video is unfortunate, but given that Nick had just been dumped, his choice of words could have been much harsher.

Bolding by me...

Yes, that is exactly what I meant by the 'spitting vinegar' comment. Andi had a horrible attitude the second she stepped out on the stage with Nick during ATFR.

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