Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[ironcat]

Regarding the original comment that Andi would be bothered by Nick being the Bachelor, I stick to my original opinion that she wouldn't care. She and Josh are supporting Chris, so if it's not him they may be disappointed on his behalf of course. The only reason I could see her caring about Nick as the lead would be if he (or producers) insisted on discussing her sex life again. Can't blame her for not wanting that to happen.

Actually, if she does have some kind of vendetta against Nick, she should root for him to get the job. Leads usually fall off their pedestals with many of their fans once their season starts.

[Litta123]

stuck, just to be clear, I concur that Nick told Andi how he felt about her and what his intentions were. What I don't know is what Nick told Andi in terms of how he viewed sex or making love as he put it. That's what I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt to. She may not of understood how deeply that act of intimacy would hurt him if she wasn't on the same page. Perhaps that was immature on her part, but I don't know how clearly Nick spelled that out to her at the time. Did he simply assume she would understand?  

I agree, I don't think we will ever know as I don't think either Andi or Nick remember what actually was talked about with all the controversy they probably both remember it slightly differently than what actually happened.

I do think she could have had a little more compassion, just because he did tell her he loved her and that he wanted to marry her.  The sex is just a small part of that to me.  I would have been disappointed in her lack of compassion whether I knew they had sex or not.

Yes, totally agree. Her hardness and lack of compassion was extremely uncomfortable for me to watch. But here again, there is a part of me that wants to give her the benefit of the doubt. To me, either her anger (regarding the plane video, pursuing contact with her) or her fear (what were TPTB doing by allowing him to pursue her, what did Nick want) seemed to override her compassion. Andi doesn't seem to like showing vulnerability in confrontational matters -- possibly a consequence of her profession. Is that an admirable trait? No. Is it understandable to me? Yes.

It's hard for me to know what my 27 year old self would do in her position. I'd like to think I would have done better, but truthfully, I can't be sure given the same circumstances. So much of my emotional growth took place in the years that followed. I don't know...maybe I was a late bloomer, but I find it unfair to place my current maturity and perspective on her. Even though I want to be that armchair QB in this situation, I'm not sure it's fair or right.

It wouldn't surprise me at all, if given the chance, that Andi would choose to handle the ATFR differently. Hopefully, she walked away with life lessons.

Litta loved your post.

Thanks!

I'm so proud to be your little grasshopper. Your words always remind me to stay objective with this crazy show!  

Ha! I can't tell you the number of times I'm fuming while I watch this show. When I'm tempted to be that armchair QB, I remind myself that I suck at FB. That's why you'll rarely see me post during this show. I need to think it through first.

[ironcat]

Great post, Litta! :-)

[Cari]

Right. And I'm questioning and wondering why that poster thinks so.  I would love to hear their opinion. I gave mine.

Since it appears you're talking to me I'll give it to you. It's the impression I've gotten ever since she let her friend Kelly post those beyond mean tweets about Nick before the season was over when they were live tweeting together, Andi calling Nick "classless" post show, her making sure Ali changed her good impression of Nick after their interview, and most recently favoriting Marcus' tweet to Nick which really was nothing to do with her. Of course I'm not actually saying she's not living her life with Josh at the moment but it does make me wonder why she bothers to let Nick get under her skin. You can defend Andi if you like but it won't change my opinion of her and that's what this is, an opinion.

That may be your opinion, but you also stated facts that back up your thoughts. I totally agree with you that Andi may not be liking that the spotlight is taken away from her. My only reason for stating that is because she is MEAndi, you said it better than me.

She needs to look back to refresh her memory on how JPG handled her nastiness towards him, post show. Ignore. Enjoy your life with your chosen one, just as JPG did, and continues to do.

I agree that those were facts that did happen! At the same manner, Nick's postshow 'actions' were facts that can bother and let "Nick get under her skin' as well. i've posted a fictitious letter mocking Nick based on those said facts and how those "facts' clue as in with Andi's coldhearted behavior at the AFTR. Possibly explaining Kelly's uber mean tweets during the show. If i am in Andi's shoes, you attempting to contact me postshow despite knowing i am with my F1 is disrespectful and annoying. Disregarding what "Josh-is-a-great-guy" is gonna feel!  :Nod: Add up Nick's infamous question. It did not douse any feelings aroused in Andi about postshow-Nick.  :Nod: This for me intensified Kelly's low opinion of Nick all the more. Andi "calling" Ali is perhaps to defend herself from the backlash of Nick's statement. Wait, did Ali say Andi was the one who called her? hmmm.... Or was it possible Ali, an ex 'ette herself contacted Andi to get her side of the story? hmmm..

These "facts" angering Andi is more logical for me than me to conclude "Andi is not liking Nick getting more attention". again, imo, of course

[luvlady345]

And don't forget the infamous video of him spoiling the show and talking about the man Andi chose and is in love with and add that to him trying to get in touch with her disrespecting Josh and their relationship how would any woman feel? I know for me that wouldn't put me in a warm fuzzy mood towards Nick..... But all of this is seemingly forgotten, odd if I must say so...

[Cari]

And don't forget the infamous video of him spoiling the show and talking about the man Andi chose and is in love with and add that to him trying to get in touch with her disrespecting Josh and their relationship how would any woman feel?  I know for me that wouldn't put me in a warm fuzzy mood towards Nick.....  But all of this is seemingly forgotten, odd if I must say so...

An unmistakble FACT with too many views on YT!   

And the FACT that you are indeed a luv-ly lady (admires your avi), luvlady!

[Cari]

In episode 7, in a group date, Nick said about the guys left,

“they don’t matter…”

comparing himself with them, implying that the guys would like to be him,

“they’d like to be, they’d want to be…” ... “at this point, I feel like it’s me and there’s no one else. There’s no second. There’s no third.”

And then in their little one on one, he bravely tells Andi that he feels Andi feels something for him,

“I don’t want to put words in your mouth..I feel it”

In his ITM,

getting a (HTD) rose says a lot of things....

...there are a lot of things (Andi) can’t say to me like "I’m falling in love with you or you’re right for me or by the way I’m pretty sure I’ll marry you..”

Nick feels that when Andi gives him the HTD rose,

“it’s her saying all those things back to me..”
 

And finally when she was given the GDR, and with nary a doubt Nick says,

“andi gives me the rose and I truly feel, I feel like

she told me she loves me.

To Nick, the GDR is a confirmation of Andi’s feelings to him. :Nod:  Later when Nick comes back, his sincerity was questioned by the boys and he said,

“I don’t care what the other guys think…. I’m confident I’ll end up with Andi.”

At the RC, talking about his coming HTD, he was excited to talk to his friends and family about Andi,

“excited to tell them how I feel about her. I definitely found that person. Fallen in love with her

..... and pretty sure she’s fallen in love with me.It’s pretty awesome…”  

Based on the above, i have an intense hunch that the same way Nick assumed Andi said she loves him back when he got the Hometown Date Rose. I am assuming Nick assumed Andi understood that their sweet making love in THE Fantasy Suite is Andi's unexpressed "you are my chosen one".

However, after reading Litta's post. I was "rebuked" for my assumptions, logical as they may. Because at the end of the day, as Litta eloquently expressed WE.DO.NOT.KNOW! 

And Litta, you are not only my SC queen but my voice of reason! *slowclap*

[stuckinsc]

None of it is forgotten Luv.  The video had it's own thread and had been discussed thoroughly.  I see it as a mistake, others take it as him being a jerk.  Again, the two sides will never agree.

Pursuing her post show, again, we are never going to agree. 

All is acknowledged.  In a perfect world Andi would have come out and directly told Nick that she loved Josh more.  End of story.  In a perfect world Nick would be quieter on the phone (thought I am sure he ha learned this lesson now). In a perfect world TPTB would have decided to showcase the Josh and Andi love story, instead of highlighting her doubts with Josh and her emotional and physical passion with Nick (Andi's words not mine).  In a perfect world Nick would not have felt the need to reach out to Andi.  In a perfect world Andi would have thought, the guy is still reaching out to me maybe I should have a short converstaion with him, maybe with Josh present, to let him know that I love Josh and that is why I chose him.  In a perfect world Andi would have come out onto the AFTR stage and showed at least the same amount of compassion as Meredith and Ashley both managed. In a perfect world Nick would have realized that Andi's aloofness meant he wasn't going to get the answer he wanted and he would not have said what he did.

Unfortunately, just like us, all the people in this show are not perfect I have decided to move on from blaming Andi.  What happened happened and at the end of the day, Josh and Andi seem to be stronger for it.  So the couple was not injured beyond repair.  My hope is that maybe with time those who are mad at Nick will be able to stop being mad at him.  He is also a man who made mistakes and while discussing an issue that is bigger than he and Andi, at least says he wishes Josh and Andi well.

I don't mind his blog, to me this has in fact evolved beyond a discussion of Nick and Andi to a discussion of how sex is viewed.  That is why I believe Sean invited Nick to blog.  That is why I believe Time magazine is interested in the blog.  It isn't because of the main characters involved it is about the message.

I think it is a worthy discussion.  Should sex take place, if it does is it the responsibility of both partners to think about the emotions of the other person, and most importantly to me, men can take sex as an emotional act and women don't always have to take it as an emotional act.  All worthy topics of discussion.

As a 43 year old woman my views on sex have evolved naturally over time, so I understand if others do as well.

What I do know being around people who are mostly in their early to mid 20s is that sex is much more common but not as talked about as I felt it was when I was that age.  I see my good friends have sex with men quickly and be willing to still have sex but be unwilling to talk to the men they are having sex with about the emotions that they may have.  I find that a problem.  Things like Tinder and other hookup type apps and places are odd, I see multiple women I know assuming that these guys that the easily have sex with, without bothering to talk about emotions or even if they are even dating, are growing in emotion as they are the more they have sex and have flirty communication.  They constantly question, what am I to this guy and try to interpret the mans actions as meaning more.  Well, in most cases what they find is the man enjoys the sex and attention and isn't feeling anything more.  I don't blame the men, to them nothing has changed, so they aren't doing anything wrong.

So I am glad that someone has the guts to say that we shouldn't be afraid to talk about sex and that we should talk about the emotions involved with sex too.  Maybe reading that some men aren't afraid to discuss emotions or associate emotions with sex will inspire some of these people to be more open and honest about talking about what sex means to them instead of just having it and making assumptions and playing guessing games.

[Cari]

stuckinsc!  :WAVEY:  i always admired your posts especially at JuanPab's season! (we're on the same camp    )

In the perfect world, Andi allows Nick to her with Josh present as you said despite Nick in the letter Andi read alluded that Andi may not be happy with her F1. It was not an assumption on my part. It was in the letter, producer driven/written or not. There is no way we can negate the letter was not written by Nick. Allegedly Nick wrote that letter because Andi dint want to see him at the MTA. We have no way of proving Nick was forced to do all that. He wanted closure, yes but he added that tidbit that Andi might not be happy with her choice. He perhaps was hoping she might do a Mesnick, and that he hopes she realizes she made a mistake and changes her mind....

In the perfect world, despite knowing Nick's postshow attempts, despite reading that letter, Andi gives Nick an audience ....while Josh is present.   

I have no way of imagining that scenario happening unless in the Perfect World.

And only in the Perfect World would Andi NOT feel disrespectful with postshow Nick.

[Ash2214]

stuckinsc!  :WAVEY:  i always admired your posts especially at JuanPab's season! (we're on the same camp    )

In the perfect world, Andi allows Nick to her with Josh present as you said despite Nick in the letter Andi read alluded that Andi may not be happy with her F1. It was not an assumption on my part. It was in the letter, producer driven/written or not. There is no way we can negate the letter was not written by Nick. Allegedly Nick wrote that letter because Andi dint want to see him at the MTA. We have no way of proving Nick was forced to do all that. He wanted closure, yes but he added that tidbit that Andi might not be happy with her choice. He perhaps was hoping she might do a Mesnick, and that he hopes she realizes she made a mistake and changes her mind....

In the perfect world, despite knowing Nick's postshow attempts, despite reading that letter, Andi gives Nick an audience ....while Josh is present.   

I have no way of imagining that scenario happening unless in the Perfect World.

And only in the Perfect World would Andi NOT feel disrespectful with postshow Nick.

Thanks for saying that, Cari. While the letter was beautifully written, he alluded to it more than once about a possible second chance. Heck, even Sharleen stated in her blog that she didn't like what he did in regards to trying to get into contact with her and so forth. Like Sharleen said, Nick shouldn't have put Andi in that position. If Andi wanted to speak with Nick, she would have done so. If Andi had a change of heart, it would have been her decision to make. Nick shouldn't have essentially try to sway her.

[Cari]

stuckinsc!  :WAVEY:  i always admired your posts especially at JuanPab's season! (we're on the same camp    )

In the perfect world, Andi allows Nick to her with Josh present as you said despite Nick in the letter Andi read alluded that Andi may not be happy with her F1. It was not an assumption on my part. It was in the letter, producer driven/written or not. There is no way we can negate the letter was not written by Nick. Allegedly Nick wrote that letter because Andi dint want to see him at the MTA. We have no way of proving Nick was forced to do all that. He wanted closure, yes but he added that tidbit that Andi might not be happy with her choice. He perhaps was hoping she might do a Mesnick, and that he hopes she realizes she made a mistake and changes her mind....

In the perfect world, despite knowing Nick's postshow attempts, despite reading that letter, Andi gives Nick an audience ....while Josh is present.   

I have no way of imagining that scenario happening unless in the Perfect World.

And only in the Perfect World would Andi NOT feel disrespectful with postshow Nick.

Thanks for saying that, Cari. While the letter was beautifully written, he alluded to it more than once about a possible second chance. Heck, even Sharleen stated in her blog that she didn't like what he did in regards to trying to get into contact with her and so forth. Like Sharleen said, Nick shouldn't have put Andi in that position. If Andi wanted to speak with Nick, she would have done so. If Andi had a change of heart, it would have been her decision to make. Nick shouldn't have essentially try to sway her.

Exactly, Ash! I was surprised with Sharleen that she mirrored my AFTR recap. Sharleen who was always in Nick's corner throughout the season....

And before we dismiss (again) Nick's postshow attempts as "the devil made me do it" because of the plane video.  (Again) does Andi know that? For me, it was very clear. Her icy behavior was due to his postshow attempts. Yes, she should have been kinder at the AFTR. But can she be blamed? i do not think so.

And i agree with StuckInSC, Jodi seems to have completely moved on. Although i do not entirely agree with Nick to further explain/justify thru his blogpost, im crossing my fingers, and think he is finally moving forward, too.   

[whit90]

None of it is forgotten Luv.  The video had it's own thread and had been discussed thoroughly.  I see it as a mistake, others take it as him being a jerk.  Again, the two sides will never agree.

Pursuing her post show, again, we are never going to agree. 

All is acknowledged.  In a perfect world Andi would have come out and directly told Nick that she loved Josh more.  End of story.  In a perfect world Nick would be quieter on the phone (thought I am sure he ha learned this lesson now). In a perfect world TPTB would have decided to showcase the Josh and Andi love story, instead of highlighting her doubts with Josh and her emotional and physical passion with Nick (Andi's words not mine).  In a perfect world Nick would not have felt the need to reach out to Andi.  In a perfect world Andi would have thought, the guy is still reaching out to me maybe I should have a short converstaion with him, maybe with Josh present, to let him know that I love Josh and that is why I chose him.  In a perfect world Andi would have come out onto the AFTR stage and showed at least the same amount of compassion as Meredith and Ashley both managed. In a perfect world Nick would have realized that Andi's aloofness meant he wasn't going to get the answer he wanted and he would not have said what he did.

Unfortunately, just like us, all the people in this show are not perfect I have decided to move on from blaming Andi.  What happened happened and at the end of the day, Josh and Andi seem to be stronger for it.  So the couple was not injured beyond repair.  My hope is that maybe with time those who are mad at Nick will be able to stop being mad at him.  He is also a man who made mistakes and while discussing an issue that is bigger than he and Andi, at least says he wishes Josh and Andi well.

I don't mind his blog, to me this has in fact evolved beyond a discussion of Nick and Andi to a discussion of how sex is viewed.  That is why I believe Sean invited Nick to blog.  That is why I believe Time magazine is interested in the blog.  It isn't because of the main characters involved it is about the message.

I think it is a worthy discussion.  Should sex take place, if it does is it the responsibility of both partners to think about the emotions of the other person, and most importantly to me, men can take sex as an emotional act and women don't always have to take it as an emotional act.  All worthy topics of discussion.

As a 43 year old woman my views on sex have evolved naturally over time, so I understand if others do as well.

What I do know being around people who are mostly in their early to mid 20s is that sex is much more common but not as talked about as I felt it was when I was that age.  I see my good friends have sex with men
quickly and be willing to still have sex but be unwilling to talk to the men they are having sex with about the emotions that they may have.  I find that a problem.  Things like Tinder and other hookup type apps and places are odd, I see multiple women I know assuming that these guys that the easily have sex with, without bothering to talk about emotions or even if they are even dating, are growing in emotion as they are the more they have sex and have flirty communication.  They constantly question, what am I to this guy and try to interpret the mans actions as meaning more.  Well, in most cases what they find is the man enjoys the sex and attention and isn't feeling anything more.  I don't blame the men, to them nothing has changed, so they aren't doing anything wrong.

So I am glad that someone has the guts to say that we shouldn't be afraid to talk about sex and that we should talk about the emotions involved with sex too.  Maybe reading that some men aren't afraid to discuss emotions or associate emotions with sex will inspire some of these people to be more open and honest about talking about what sex means to them instead of just having it and making assumptions and playing guessing games.

Excellent Post !!!!!!i

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