Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - Thread #7

[albean99]

I think this is another thing that has sprouted wings and taken flight.

The closest thing I could find indicating Me and I not liking the attention another cast(Nick) has received was a member posting what it "appears" like Me and I is not liking. The member posts "it appears to me." It is the poster's opinion.

Right. And I'm questioning and wondering why that poster thinks so.  I would love to hear their opinion. I gave mine.

Since it appears you're talking to me I'll give it to you. It's the impression I've gotten ever since she let her friend Kelly post those beyond mean tweets about Nick before the season was over when they were live tweeting together, Andi calling Nick "classless" post show, her making sure Ali changed her good impression of Nick after their interview, and most recently favoriting Marcus' tweet to Nick which really was nothing to do with her. Of course I'm not actually saying she's not living her life with Josh at the moment but it does make me wonder why she bothers to let Nick get under her skin. You can defend Andi if you like but it won't change my opinion of her and that's what this is, an opinion.

[stuckinsc]

This is a post from the Nick fan thread that I am sharing with permission from the person who wrote it.  She chooses to only post in the Nick fan thread and I wanted to share her interesting opinion.

"The pleasure in being a Nicholas Viall supporter  bestbud!  bestbud!  bestbud! throughout this silly tv show has been validation that this man is a vanguard of the highest order.  

As Mura pointed out upstream (thanks for the mention, my friend), I have always been well aware of his imperfections.  However we are all flawed so really the focus in any "judgement" of character is much more about how equipped a person is to rise above their imperfections when faced with adversity.  On that account, Nick has effortlessly soared.  

The capacity of Nick to elevate the simplicity of a formulaic reality tv to debate about vulnerability, intimacy, unconditional love, "making love", what should be the terms of an engagement, risk, compassion, authenticity, truth-speaking, sex, and heartbreak from a male who defies stereotyping is simply phenomenal. His words and actions have always aligned (regardless of whether some like it while others do not) thus separating him from those who are bystanders to their own life story.  He is not, nor will he ever be a "hollow man".  That's why journalists and news & entertainment reporters want to speak with him.  He isn't just another reality tv "star" talking about the usual "stuff".  He is a man of substance and outside the "bubble" substance matters.

The season began with a simple dedication to Eric.  CH said that would be what we would witness.  What did we learn about Eric in the short time he graced our tv screens?  Eric was passionate about life and symbolized the ultimate risk-taker.
Eric believed that love, his family, and his future family were the greatest of gifts in life and something he would compromise almost everything for.  He stated that love could be found anywhere but in order for that love to be true the confines of "The Bachelorette" show would have to bend, the lead would have to truly be herself "with him" for something authentic to grow.  He questioned her, listened to her, placed expectations on her, stated his bottom line conditions with conviction, and listened carefully before quietly responding to her concerns. He challenged her to move outside her comfort zone.  He was a man, fully formed, looking for a woman to love in an unorthodox environment.  

I think the legacy of Eric lived on throughout the season.  


"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen." Elisabeth Kübler-Ross"

[luvlady345]

Oh ok it's your opinion, I thought I missed something that was not an opinion, gotcha ya.....

[Litta123]

I forgot to add in response to the Bachelor bubble. That was the difference IMO between Nick sleeping with Andi, and Andi sleeping with Nick. One behaved according to their morals and the other behaved according to whatever.

  finally ... someone said it, what's been bugging me all along ...   
I don't mind or care who slept with whom ...
but it does appear like one was following his beliefs, taking it as a real relationship development on the road towards engagement ...
when the other ... was living in her bubble [of the game and FS secrecy] (that "was supposed to stay private")...
but then if I'm wrong ... and she did act accordingly to her own beliefs ... then she doesn't need to feel any embarrassment or shame [on her 1on1 with herself] and the comment doesn't need to be taken "as a hit below the belt" and neither do her fans need to defend her .. because Andi can own her own actions as a big, mature girl she is ... and be proud of herself.

So okay, happy, here is one of my shades of grey...and I hope I don't have to turn in my Nick Fan Card after I post it. I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt in this matter and go only by what we KNOW.

First, I respect what Nick said in his blog. It's refreshing to hear a man, especially, put into words the value he places on sex...or at least, the value of two people understanding what sex means to one another in that moment before they engage in it. I appreciate the sense of being used that can come from not being on the same page. But that's my problem...we have only heard Nick say to Andi, "You knew what it meant to me." We weren't there.

Was this a case of Nick actually stating the beliefs that he put in his blog? Did he say it that clearly? Did Andi really understand? Was this just another one of Nick's assumptions that he made along the way? How specific was this conversation that he had with Andi? I'm not calling Nick a liar because I wasn't there. But that's just it, I don't KNOW that Andi clearly understood Nick's position. It's just his opinion. I also will give him the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely believes she knew. But did she?

If she did, then I am greatly disappointed in her calloused behavior -- either for the sake of putting on a show or just seeking her own pleasure knowing what it meant to him. But if she didn't really understand, then I think the criticism of her is unwarranted. The problem is Andi is in a no win situation to explain herself. If she openly responds, it hurts Josh and his family by rubbing their faces in it publicly. If she stays silent, as she is doing, the criticism falls on her.

At this point, I'm willing to give Andi the benefit of the doubt and simply say I don't know if she truly understood Nick's position. She hasn't told us one way or another...and likely, she won't. There aren't any witnesses to verify Nick's statement. To me, Andi's silence isn't verification of Nick's claim. At this point, I don't KNOW what Andi really understood and thus won't condemn her for her actions.

Believing the best in Nick, his blog was to call attention to the meaning and value of sex between two individuals...and the potential harm it can cause when not approached in the same way. Believing the worst, his blog was to shame Andi. Since I don't KNOW his motives, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

This is simply an example of seeing the situation from both sides. Since we don't and won't KNOW the truth to their specific situation, this is why I wish the conversation could take place without them in the context. People take sides and then round and round we go. That's all good and fine -- that's what we do on this board. We share our opinions. The problem, though IMO, is that we don't get closer to the truth. We just don't KNOW.

Hence, I'm not mad at Nick. I'm not mad at Andi. I'm just sad that both are hurt --I'm not willing or able to assign the blame.

*****

On a personal note, my beliefs on sex probably most closely align with Sean Lowe's. One of the reasons our faith gives us restrictions on sexual matters is precisely to prevent this kind of hurt. It's for our own protection. Mods, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to state what I just shared so please edit as needed.

[stuckinsc]

I forgot to add in response to the Bachelor bubble. That was the difference IMO between Nick sleeping with Andi, and Andi sleeping with Nick. One behaved according to their morals and the other behaved according to whatever.

  finally ... someone said it, what's been bugging me all along ...   
I don't mind or care who slept with whom ...
but it does appear like one was following his beliefs, taking it as a real relationship development on the road towards engagement ...
when the other ... was living in her bubble [of the game and FS secrecy] (that "was supposed to stay private")...
but then if I'm wrong ... and she did act accordingly to her own beliefs ... then she doesn't need to feel any embarrassment or shame [on her 1on1 with herself] and the comment doesn't need to be taken "as a hit below the belt" and neither do her fans need to defend her .. because Andi can own her own actions as a big, mature girl she is ... and be proud of herself.

So okay, happy, here is one of my shades of grey...and I hope I don't have to turn in my Nick Fan Card after I post it. I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt in this matter and go only by what we KNOW.

First, I respect what Nick said in his blog. It's refreshing to hear a man, especially, put into words the value he places on sex...or at least, the value of two people understanding what sex means to one another in that moment before they engage in it. I appreciate the sense of being used that can come from not being on the same page. But that's my problem...we have only heard Nick say to Andi, "You knew what it meant to me." We weren't there.

Was this a case of Nick actually stating the beliefs that he put in his blog? Did he say it that clearly? Did Andi really understand? Was this just another one of Nick's assumptions that he made along the way? How specific was this conversation that he had with Andi? I'm not calling Nick a liar because I wasn't there. But that's just it, I don't KNOW that Andi clearly understood Nick's position. It's just his opinion. I also will give him the benefit of the doubt that he genuinely believes she knew. But did she?

If she did, then I am greatly disappointed in her calloused behavior -- either for the sake of putting on a show or just seeking her own pleasure knowing what it meant to him. But if she didn't really understand, then I think the criticism of her is unwarranted. The problem is Andi is in a no win situation to explain herself. If she openly responds, it hurts Josh and his family by rubbing their faces in it publicly. If she stays silent, as she is doing, the criticism falls on her.

At this point, I'm willing to give Andi the benefit of the doubt and simply say I don't know if she truly understood Nick's position. She hasn't told us one way or another...and likely, she won't. There aren't any witnesses to verify Nick's statement. To me, Andi's silence isn't verification of Nick's claim. At this point, I don't KNOW what Andi really understood and thus won't condemn her for her actions.

Believing the best in Nick, his blog was to call attention to the meaning and value of sex between two individuals...and the potential harm it can cause when not approached in the same way. Believing the worst, his blog was to shame Andi. Since I don't KNOW his motives, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

This is simply an example of seeing the situation from both sides. Since we don't and won't KNOW the truth to their specific situation, this is why I wish the conversation could take place without them in the context. People take sides and then round and round we go. That's all good and fine -- that's what we do on this board. We share our opinions. The problem, though IMO, is that we don't get closer to the truth. We just don't KNOW.

Hence, I'm not mad at Nick. I'm not mad at Andi. I'm just sad that both are hurt --I'm not willing or able to assign the blame.

*****

On a personal note, my beliefs on sex probably most closely align with Sean Lowe's. One of the reasons our faith gives us restrictions on sexual matters is precisely to prevent this kind of hurt. It's for our own protection. Mods, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to state what I just shared so please edit as needed.

No need to turn in the Nick fan card. I don't mind that Andi had sex with Nick, the only thing I know that Andi knew was that Nick loved her and wanted to marry her. We know that because it was shown. She may not have understood that the words said in the bubble actually meant just that to him.

Even then, if she was undecided and decided to have sex with him, I don't mind.

As many have pointed out, once confronted Andi gave Nick some validation of her feelings for him, had she done that earlier, when dumping him, when he tried to contact her or even when she first came out to the AFTR and Nick still said it, I would be really pissed at him. I think he spoke out of frustration because she was acting as if she didn't really feel anything for him.

I actually don't care how Andi acted, I still wish her and Josh the best. She made the best decision for her. I like Josh and hope they have a great life together.

I think Andi doesn't like Nick, but I don't think she is as obsessed with Nick and his post show actions as we are. I truly hope she is moving on completely with Josh and doesn't bother to think about Nick.

Some see the blog as drawing the situation out, to me it was taking an invitation from someone else who has a different view on how males perceive sex than what is considered the normal male stereotype and sharing his beliefs. To me it showed graciousness on both Sean's and Nick's part as during the season they weren't close or even fans.

I don't have to see anyone as perfect to like them, as a matter of fact, I prefer less than perfect people. Watching people overcome difficulties and their mistakes and how they handle it is something that makes me admire people even more.

[Litta123]

stuck, just to be clear, I concur that Nick told Andi how he felt about her and what his intentions were. What I don't know is what Nick told Andi in terms of how he viewed sex or making love as he put it. That's what I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt to. She may not of understood how deeply that act of intimacy would hurt him if she wasn't on the same page. Perhaps that was immature on her part, but I don't know how clearly Nick spelled that out to her at the time. Did he simply assume she would understand?  

[stuckinsc]

I realize it's the poster's opinion.  I just wondered if Andi had say anything in the past few days.

Thanks for everyone's replies.

The last indication I had that Andi was annoyed with Nick was the effort of calling Ali to refute Nick's claim that he tried to contact her. I don't care about tweets favored or whatever.

I have difficulty understanding the opinions of negativity towards Nick because he followed someone on twitter who said nasty things about Andi, or enjoying the positive opinions of a letter that were fairly nasty to Nick. OTOH I'm also having difficulty understanding what appears to me, Nick being held to a higher standard than we are willing to hold ourselves? This isn't directed at anyone at all, but rather an opinion of how we set standards.

This site is public so anyone doing a google search can read what you have posted.

[sbolduc]

Litta loved your post.

[stuckinsc]

stuck, just to be clear, I concur that Nick told Andi how he felt about her and what his intentions were. What I don't know is what Nick told Andi in terms of how he viewed sex or making love as he put it. That's what I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt to. She may not of understood how deeply that act of intimacy would hurt him if she wasn't on the same page. Perhaps that was immature on her part, but I don't know how clearly Nick spelled that out to her at the time. Did he simply assume she would understand?  

I agree, I don't think we will ever know as I don't think either Andi or Nick remember what actually was talked about with all the controversy they probably both remember it slightly differently than what actually happened.

I do think she could have had a little more compassion, just because he did tell her he loved her and that he wanted to marry her. The sex is just a small part of that to me. I would have been disappointed in her lack of compassion whether I knew they had sex or not.

[GuardianAngel]

I think this is another thing that has sprouted wings and taken flight.

The closest thing I could find indicating Me and I not liking the attention another cast(Nick) has received was a member posting what it "appears" like Me and I is not liking. The member posts "it appears to me." It is the poster's opinion.

Right. And I'm questioning and wondering why that poster thinks so.  I would love to hear their opinion. I gave mine.

Since it appears you're talking to me I'll give it to you. It's the impression I've gotten ever since she let her friend Kelly post those beyond mean tweets about Nick before the season was over when they were live tweeting together, Andi calling Nick "classless" post show, her making sure Ali changed her good impression of Nick after their interview, and most recently favoriting Marcus' tweet to Nick which really was nothing to do with her. Of course I'm not actually saying she's not living her life with Josh at the moment but it does make me wonder why she bothers to let Nick get under her skin. You can defend Andi if you like but it won't change my opinion of her and that's what this is, an opinion.

That may be your opinion, but you also stated facts that back up your thoughts. I totally agree with you that Andi may not be liking that the spotlight is taken away from her. My only reason for stating that is because she is MEAndi, you said it better than me.

She needs to look back to refresh her memory on how JPG handled her nastiness towards him, post show. Ignore. Enjoy your life with your chosen one, just as JPG did, and continues to do.

[sbolduc]

stuck, just to be clear, I concur that Nick told Andi how he felt about her and what his intentions were. What I don't know is what Nick told Andi in terms of how he viewed sex or making love as he put it. That's what I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt to. She may not of understood how deeply that act of intimacy would hurt him if she wasn't on the same page. Perhaps that was immature on her part, but I don't know how clearly Nick spelled that out to her at the time. Did he simply assume she would understand?  

This to me this is why once I took a step back after the ATFR and looked at the issue, I realized that I myself do not know what Andi or Nick said or thought in regards to this subject. Due to this one might be right the other wrong, OR they both could be in the right OR the contrary they both could be in the wrong.

I would like to, to give both the benefit of the doubt and believe they both acted with the best intentions, and if so, I cannot and will not fault them, regardless if those would be the same decisions I would make. I don't know what either were thinking, so I do not feel I can condemn either of them.

The one thing I will say, regardless of how clear Nick was to Andi, or the purposes to which Andi had sex with Nick, if I were in Andi's shoes on that stage and this person who I did care deeply about had just expressed to me how much I had hurt them and how much that action hurt them, my first instinct would have been to apologize. To the same effect, if I were Nick on that stage, after realizing what I had said in the heat of the moment, I too would be apologizing to this person and assure them that my intention was not to harm them in my statements. JMO.

[Guest]

Sorry if this is somewhere else but US Magazine is saying Nick is in the mix for Bachelor. Wouldn't that p/o Andi?  

That thought hadn't occurred to me, but I love it!   

I see that comment a few times as well. No JPG didn't sleep with her, he was in love with Nikki. Maybe that's why Andi flew off the deep handle. Besides, I'm sure we would have heard about it at the ATFR if she did. Same script, wrong season.

It didn't stop him from having sex with Clare. I may have missed it, but I don't think it's been confirmed either way. I think some assume she got mad at him because he talked about having sex with Clare right after he had sex with her, but nothing definite that I know of.

Believing the best in Nick, his blog was to call attention to the meaning and value of sex between two individuals...and the potential harm it can cause when not approached in the same way. Believing the worst, his blog was to shame Andi. Since I don't KNOW his motives, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

I'm so proud to be your little grasshopper.  Your words always remind me to stay objective with this crazy show!  

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