Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

stuckinsc wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Josh made the tweet about the KC Chiefs, then said we all make mistakes and wanted to be understood.  So I guess his statements about first Nick and now JPG to me show that while Josh wants to be given understanding for his mistakes, he likes to judge others for theirs.

If Josh just chose to not comment about these people he doesn't like, then he wouldn't not seem quite to hypocritical.  JMO.  I simple no comment lets people know that you might not like the other person, but it rises above.

Right because tweeting out that he wished his brother was on a team that would give him more opportunity is the same as Juan Pablo saying "I don't know you, but I love ******* you" to a woman or Nick trying to track down someone else's fiancé for two months, posting tweets/pictures of Andi, writing a love letter to someone else's fiancé asking her to take him back, and then telling millions of people on live television that he had sex with her. Yikes. I see a large, large difference between those "mistakes."

Actually Josh's tweet could have effected Aaron's career.  It wasn't just an innocent slip.  Look at Percy Harvin this week and getting traded to the Jets.  Even when you are the most talented player if you cause too much grief then you are not going to get to stay on a team.  Percy Harvin has enough talent that he will be given many chances.  Aaron is still rehabbing a very serious injury.  He does not need to be labelled as a trouble maker or as having a family that causes trouble.

Also, how many of Nick's actions were TPTB directed or produced?  We will never know.  The letter could have been written right before MTA or right after Nick got home from DR.  We don't know.  TPTB might have contacted Nick to say that Andi wasn't happy instead of Nick contacting them.  Again we will never know.  I am told constantly that I don't know what J&A are doing or thinking.  I agree, we also don't know what Nick was doing or thinking only the edited version we were shown.

I wish Nick had never asked her that question, I do think CH pushed and pushed until he did, but I said then he shouldn't have said it.  

Ultimately forgiveness should be given not based on the "crime" but because it is the Christian thing to do.  And if you ask for forgiveness you should also give it.

A simple no comment about people Josh doesn't like would imply that he doesn't like them without crossing over a line.

To me, that's just an excuse. No one put a gun to Nick's head and said he needed to try to contact Andi on more than one occasion. No one put a gun to his head and forced him into posting pictures on his twitter with Andi. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to write Andi that love letter that certainly implied that he wanted a second chance with her. He admitted on the phone conversation from the plane that he wasn't happy with her choice and trashed the guy she did pick. Heck, he even mentioned a "Mesnick" while on the phone. According to RS, his friend that recorded it said Nick mentioned he wanted to write her a letter.

Personally, I don't think CH forced or pushed anything out of him. What pushed it out of him was Andi telling him the truth that she said she should have told him months ago. Nothing was wrong with Nick as they had a great relationship, but she fell in love with someone else and that relationship was more right. IMO, it looked like Nick was hoping that Andi would change her mind about Josh or at the very least he expected Andi to be affectionate towards him and when he didn't get that, he dropped the bomb to hurt her. Did he really think that on live television she would actually answer him?

This isn't Nick's thread though so I don't know why he keeps being brought up. I won't go any further in order to not go completely off topic.

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.

aviej wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:

Right because tweeting out that he wished his brother was on a team that would give him more opportunity is the same as Juan Pablo saying "I don't know you, but I love ******* you" to a woman or Nick trying to track down someone else's fiancé for two months, posting tweets/pictures of Andi, writing a love letter to someone else's fiancé asking her to take him back, and then telling millions of people on live television that he had sex with her. Yikes. I see a large, large difference between those "mistakes."

Actually Josh's tweet could have effected Aaron's career.  It wasn't just an innocent slip.  Look at Percy Harvin this week and getting traded to the Jets.  Even when you are the most talented player if you cause too much grief then you are not going to get to stay on a team.  Percy Harvin has enough talent that he will be given many chances.  Aaron is still rehabbing a very serious injury.  He does not need to be labelled as a trouble maker or as having a family that causes trouble.

Also, how many of Nick's actions were TPTB directed or produced?  We will never know.  The letter could have been written right before MTA or right after Nick got home from DR.  We don't know.  TPTB might have contacted Nick to say that Andi wasn't happy instead of Nick contacting them.  Again we will never know.  I am told constantly that I don't know what J&A are doing or thinking.  I agree, we also don't know what Nick was doing or thinking only the edited version we were shown.

I wish Nick had never asked her that question, I do think CH pushed and pushed until he did, but I said then he shouldn't have said it.  

Ultimately forgiveness should be given not based on the "crime" but because it is the Christian thing to do.  And if you ask for forgiveness you should also give it.

A simple no comment about people Josh doesn't like would imply that he doesn't like them without crossing over a line.

I agree with most of what you are saying. However per the bolded, in CH's blog he said what was left out in that MTA taping was the fact that CH told Nick that Josh and Andi have a real relationship and that he respects Josh. So to me, it didn't seem as though it was TPTB initiated. Also, bare in mind Nick's plane video he implied that Jason Mesnick had a change of heart on the AFTR. So to me, those two things lead me to believe that Nick initiated the MTA visit, but then again, it's JMHO.

JMO

No offense, but CH has contradicted himself before. He is the lapdog of TPTB. I think Nick was encouraged by TPTB and Nick could not have gotten on the MTA set without TPTB permission. Much like Nick getting Andi's hotel key in Belgium. Those things don't happen if TPTB doesn't make them happen. Same with Chris B being their at Andi's M&G. TPTB is the puppet master holding the strings.

I also think the Jason Mesnick thing was mentioned to Nick by TPTB. He said he watched Des's season but didn't seem to know much about other seasons before this.

^It wasn't left out of taping. There's video of CH telling Nick directly at the MTA taping that Andi was engaged to Josh and that they were taking that relationship very seriously. Nick said he knew that.

Ash2214 wrote:^It wasn't left out of taping. There's video of CH telling Nick directly at the MTA taping that Andi was engaged to Josh and that they were taking that relationship very seriously. Nick said he knew that.

At the MTA taping you are correct, the phone call about Mexico, we don't know who made it. Also we don't know when the letter was written. I happen to think it was written as soon as he got back from DR. When he was not certain why she picked Josh and she hadn't told him. I believe by MTA that Nick knew he was being used by TPTB. His tweets after that were very different in tone. JMO

So now Steve has picked up the Murray Family Feud drama. I guess we'll see if this or anything at all will make Josh react to his family? Like even a little?!

Alanna wrote:So now Steve has picked up the Murray Family Feud drama. I guess we'll see if this or anything at all will make Josh react to his family? Like even a little?!

I for one hope there is no comment/SM about the supposed drama. Nothing good can come from that so why not let it die a natural death. Commenting on it will just give the those who are not fans fuel to say they are laying or hiding the truth, and continuing the conversation.

Per Ash2214

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.

Personally, "outrage" is not what I feel. Great disappointment and thinking Josh has poor impulse control and questionable judgement comes to mind more. 


He is allowed his opinion as we all are, but he is much  more in the public eye and involved with media than 95% of us.  
With that being said, I guess with youth and immaturity, he has not yet mastered self restraint/control in what is ok and not ok to express. It's ok to have opinions. We all do. Not so ok to express them in a public situation when you are dissing. They come home to roost.

Alanna wrote:So now Steve has picked up the Murray Family Feud drama. I guess we'll see if this or anything at all will make Josh react to his family? Like even a little?!

I have to say I'm surprised he didn't talk more about it as he was fairly quick in saying there isn't proof of anything other than Josh and Andi not congratulating Aaron on social media. RS was pretty neutral on Josh and Andi though. He didn't love them and he didn't hate them during the season. I personally thought he had an excellent ATFR blog and he had some great words in defense of Andi in regards to what Nick did on the ATFR.

eliza3 wrote:

Alanna wrote:So now Steve has picked up the Murray Family Feud drama. I guess we'll see if this or anything at all will make Josh react to his family? Like even a little?!

I for one hope there is no comment/SM about the supposed drama.  Nothing good can come from that so why not let it die a natural death.   Commenting on it will just give the those who are not fans fuel to say they are laying or hiding the truth, and continuing the conversation.

I don't mean a comment like, "yes, I love my family and Steve is wrong" but more along the lines of visiting his parents or tweeting something to Aaron or mm, etc. Acknowledging their existence, that vein.

Ash, I think Steve knows as much as we do, which is to say, nothing!

Kashathediva wrote:Per Ash2214

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.

Personally, "outrage" is not what I feel. Great disappointment and thinking Josh has poor impulse control and questionable judgement comes to mind more. 


He is allowed his opinion as we all are, but he is much  more in the public eye and involved with media than 95% of us.  
With that being said, I guess with youth and immaturity, he has not yet mastered self restraint/control in what is ok and not ok to express. It's ok to have opinions. We all do. Not so ok to express them in a public situation when you are dissing. They come home to roost.

Well, that's what I'm saying. I agree in that it was poor impulse control and was dumb to state that to a magazine. Maybe he'll learn something. My issue is that I don't understand some of the comments I've seen. It's as if Josh called Juan Pablo a murderer and that he's the worst human being on the planet. Josh said he personally didn't like Juan Pablo's character and he doesn't want him at his wedding. Like I said, people can have opinions of others. It's the way life goes. I completely understand calling the action of it dumb, idiotic, stupid, etc. but I personally just don't understand the harsh dissecting of his words when we all have people we dislike.

Juan Pablo isn't an angel - no one is, but it's not like Josh's comments are coming out of left field.

stuckinsc wrote:

ReneeM wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

What I saw, was that Cecily said if you weren't happy in the FS, say something or leave.  Don't stay and act happy then leave and act like it was torture.

I think that is what most of us who were annoyed by Andi and her behavior thought.

To me that wasn't calling Andi a liar, it was questioning how she behaved in the situation.

One of the reasons I loved Andi on JP's season, then on hers, so much is because I saw a lot of similarities in our personalities, so I have a different point of view. Let's say the producers had nothing to do intervening and Andi decided to stay during the FS and leave the next day on her own. I see why people would question her motives, but for me, who's been in situations similar with people I've dated, It's very possible that Andi acted happy because she WANTED be happy. The bach/ette always thank the contestants for the sacrifices they made to be there, In andi's PoV she sacrificed so much to be there, she didn't want it to be for nothing, so she pretended everything was ok until she couldn't pretend anymore. It happens sometimes, when you want something to work so bad, that you ignore the warning signs until finally you can't ignore them anymore. Even when she left I believe Nikki said something along the lines of 'I knew she had doubts but not enough to leave' or something along those lines

Andi said that she sat there all night miserable and faking sleep.  This is JMO, but when you chose to stay in a situation where you are miserable and not tell the other person, then you should not complain or blame them.  How is someone supposed to help or make it better if they don't know they are doing anything wrong?

I have done this to my hubby once.  I was upset, but tried the silent treatment and sat waiting for him to ask and try to make it better.  Once I finally got so mad and told him he was mean to not care about me and my feelings he let me know that he didn't realize anything was wrong.  He said that if I was upset, I needed to tell him, or he probably would screw up.  

I learned a lot from that argument at the beginning of our relationship.  

I know I hate it when others get mad at me, but won't tell me why or even give me the chance to do better, exactly how is that fair?

I don't know if this is something that Andi does, I know it was something I did and thank goodness for my hubby, I think him confronting me has helped me to be a better person.  I hope Andi might learn from it too.

I think it is very different when you've suddenly realized you can never be with a person, than when you have feelings for someone and are mad at them. I've done both, and there really is no point in talking about it and working it out in the former because in your mind you are already gone from the relationship. It is definitely an awful feeling and realizing it right after being intimate for the first time really, really sucks.

And just to be clear, that feeling doesn't come from being physically incompatible in a "test drive" sense; you just really really wish you had known before what you know now and had never gone down that road at all.

Kashathediva wrote:Per Ash2214

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.

Personally, "outrage" is not what I feel. Great disappointment and thinking Josh has poor impulse control and questionable judgement comes to mind more. 


He is allowed his opinion as we all are, but he is much  more in the public eye and involved with media than 95% of us.  
With that being said, I guess with youth and immaturity, he has not yet mastered self restraint/control in what is ok and not ok to express. It's ok to have opinions. We all do. Not so ok to express them in a public situation when you are dissing. They come home to roost.

I think the bolded sums it up for me, although at his age and with his life experiences, I would think maturity would have kicked in by now if it's going to. Whenever his "I'm a grown ass man" in your face confrontation was last season with some other guy, was when I was knew I wouldn't become a fan of his. I think that showed pretty clearly that he reacts emotionally when things bother him, as most of us do, and that those emotions don't necessarily come out in the nicest, classiest, most mature way. I've seen that same situation repeated many times over since.