Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

ReneeM wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

ReneeM wrote:

One of the reasons I loved Andi on JP's season, then on hers, so much is because I saw a lot of similarities in our personalities, so I have a different point of view. Let's say the producers had nothing to do intervening and Andi decided to stay during the FS and leave the next day on her own. I see why people would question her motives, but for me, who's been in situations similar with people I've dated, It's very possible that Andi acted happy because she WANTED be happy. The bach/ette always thank the contestants for the sacrifices they made to be there, In andi's PoV she sacrificed so much to be there, she didn't want it to be for nothing, so she pretended everything was ok until she couldn't pretend anymore. It happens sometimes, when you want something to work so bad, that you ignore the warning signs until finally you can't ignore them anymore. Even when she left I believe Nikki said something along the lines of 'I knew she had doubts but not enough to leave' or something along those lines

Andi said that she sat there all night miserable and faking sleep.  This is JMO, but when you chose to stay in a situation where you are miserable and not tell the other person, then you should not complain or blame them.  How is someone supposed to help or make it better if they don't know they are doing anything wrong?

I have done this to my hubby once.  I was upset, but tried the silent treatment and sat waiting for him to ask and try to make it better.  Once I finally got so mad and told him he was mean to not care about me and my feelings he let me know that he didn't realize anything was wrong.  He said that if I was upset, I needed to tell him, or he probably would screw up.  

I learned a lot from that argument at the beginning of our relationship.  

I know I hate it when others get mad at me, but won't tell me why or even give me the chance to do better, exactly how is that fair?

I don't know if this is something that Andi does, I know it was something I did and thank goodness for my hubby, I think him confronting me has helped me to be a better person.  I hope Andi might learn from it too.

There's nothing JP could have done at that point. There was no fixing this. This wasn't a tiff in a relationship. This was her realizing that night, that he wasn't the right guy for her and doing everything she could to ignore it, hence her pretending to be happy, because if she confronts it, she admits that she sacrificed so much for what ended up to be nothing (at the time), then has to question her own judgement for not realizing it sooner, and for ignoring the warning signs. The next morning in my opinion was her revelation though, that these aren't things that she can just ignore anymore.

And I disagree with the bolded. It's not that you can't blame the other person, I think you can, it's just that in turn, you ALSO get some of the blame. She's culpable for staying in a situation that made her unhappy but JP created that scenario in the first place.

And to me JPG telling her it was okay and I thought he said he was sorry, but I don't know and refuse to rewatch, so again if I am wrong, please someone feel free to correct me. We have yet to see Andi say she was wrong and I think she may have finally said after all her bachelorette experience that it was harder than she thought. Have we ever heard her say, yup, I probably should have left as soon as I was unhappy?

That is one of my main problems with Andi, it is always everyone else's fault and never hers. I am seeing some of this flow into J&A as a couple. Unfortunately, it is not attractive on anyone. That is of course my opinion.

Also, sorry, what again did she sacrifice for JPG, I might have believed she sacrificed work time, but as we have seen she did not rush back to her job or career and she has seemed to make her two bffs out of it, so I don't see what she really gave up to be on the show. Someone like Nikki who actually went back to their lives and their careers, I can see them being upset at the time they gave up. To me, Andi got a fun trip to Asia.

Now if she was embarrassed that she had sex with a guy who it turns out she really didn't like too much. That I get, but again, that is not his fault. I have done it and I wasn't proud of it, but it was certainly my mistake. Many girls have gone on the bachelor and not had sex in the FS, and nope not just those on Sean, Charlie or Byron's season. You aren't required to have sex in the FS. I heard over and over again that she didn't force Nick and since we saw her attitude to having sex with Nick, it's not like she held sex as much more than just sex.

Please take this post in the Smart Alec vain it is intended.

I realize now why Andi had to let Nick go before picking out rings. We know she told Josh exactly which ring she wanted and designed it herself. She probably told Nick the same thing in the FS and I don't know if she had control over which order the guys got to pick out rings, so opps that would have sucked if Nick picked "her" ring before Josh could.

Ash2214 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:

Right because tweeting out that he wished his brother was on a team that would give him more opportunity is the same as Juan Pablo saying "I don't know you, but I love ******* you" to a woman or Nick trying to track down someone else's fiancé for two months, posting tweets/pictures of Andi, writing a love letter to someone else's fiancé asking her to take him back, and then telling millions of people on live television that he had sex with her. Yikes. I see a large, large difference between those "mistakes."

Actually Josh's tweet could have effected Aaron's career.  It wasn't just an innocent slip.  Look at Percy Harvin this week and getting traded to the Jets.  Even when you are the most talented player if you cause too much grief then you are not going to get to stay on a team.  Percy Harvin has enough talent that he will be given many chances.  Aaron is still rehabbing a very serious injury.  He does not need to be labelled as a trouble maker or as having a family that causes trouble.

Also, how many of Nick's actions were TPTB directed or produced?  We will never know.  The letter could have been written right before MTA or right after Nick got home from DR.  We don't know.  TPTB might have contacted Nick to say that Andi wasn't happy instead of Nick contacting them.  Again we will never know.  I am told constantly that I don't know what J&A are doing or thinking.  I agree, we also don't know what Nick was doing or thinking only the edited version we were shown.

I wish Nick had never asked her that question, I do think CH pushed and pushed until he did, but I said then he shouldn't have said it.  

Ultimately forgiveness should be given not based on the "crime" but because it is the Christian thing to do.  And if you ask for forgiveness you should also give it.

A simple no comment about people Josh doesn't like would imply that he doesn't like them without crossing over a line.

To me, that's just an excuse. No one put a gun to Nick's head and said he needed to try to contact Andi on more than one occasion. No one put a gun to his head and forced him into posting pictures on his twitter with Andi. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to write Andi that love letter that certainly implied that he wanted a second chance with her. He admitted on the phone conversation from the plane that he wasn't happy with her choice and trashed the guy she did pick. Heck, he even mentioned a "Mesnick" while on the phone. According to RS, his friend that recorded it said Nick mentioned he wanted to write her a letter.

Personally, I don't think CH forced or pushed anything out of him. What pushed it out of him was Andi telling him the truth that she said she should have told him months ago. Nothing was wrong with Nick as they had a great relationship, but she fell in love with someone else and that relationship was more right. IMO, it looked like Nick was hoping that Andi would change her mind about Josh or at the very least he expected Andi to be affectionate towards him and when he didn't get that, he dropped the bomb to hurt her. Did he really think that on live television she would actually answer him?

This isn't Nick's thread though so I don't know why he keeps being brought up. I won't go any further in order to not go completely off topic.

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.  

Andi told Ali that Nick had never tried to contact her until MTA. So I can believe that TPTB made contact with him and told him that J&A were having problems and that Andi maybe rethinking things. Nick did go to the MTA and he did allow them to use the letter whenever he wrote it. I think he had a $5 million dollar lawsuit threat as a good incentive, but he hasn't claimed that and we truly will never know.

I do feel CH pushed and pushed until Nick said what he did. It is okay if you don't, you are allowed.

But CH's blogs and almost anything out of CH's mouth to me are lies or highly questionable. The man lies as easily as he breathes and will say whatever is required to forward TPTB's storyline. They don't want you to think they might have been trying to stir trouble in paradise, but I still think TPTB wanted Josh as bachelor.

It is only my opinion, but I think early on they wanted Eric or Josh as their next bachelor. She would have been allowed Josh without interference if she could have played nice and kept Eric until at least HTDs. Unlike Eric, I don't think Andi is a good actress. I believe Andi started realizing in week three when Eric was perfect but she really wasn't into him like Josh or even Nick that she didn't want him. Unlike Cody or Dylan or most other guys Eric wasn't going to just be happy with a little bit of something here or there. He wanted to build on the relationship he thought they started. She was incredibly rude to read the flower note in front of Eric and then get up and leave. After that he wanted answers and truthfully, I thought it was hard for Andi to not be honest and tell him, I am just not into you. So instead we get the fight after which Eric obviously had to leave and unfortunately, that was just way to early for TPTB to use him as a lead.

So then they wanted Josh. I do believe they hit on her insecurities with Josh and also pushed her to chose Nick. They weren't going to get Josh to not want her, so they had to try to get her to not want him. It didn't work, but with the plane video they had a chance to try to get Nick to believe that Andi might not be happy and that he still had a chance. So Nick tweets a lot and posts pics of him and Andi, he emphasizes the love that he felt, which sorry, I do believe was real, maybe stupid, but real. He wants her still, so he tries to win her back, believing that she might want him too and that she is not happy. The mentioning on the plane video to me of Jason, show producers were trying to set Nick up to believe that she might change her mind. They just got lucky that Nick screwed up so had to play along maybe more than he wanted to. I think TPTB really hoped that the Nick tweets and the edit and everything might cause tension with Josh and Andi and in the end if they could get Nick to out her on AFTR, then maybe Josh would dump her. Of course, Josh didn't bother to watch the season except for his parts, which seems to be a strategy that both Chris S and Nikki used too. And good for Andi she had told Josh all about the FS with Nick, so TPTB was SOL. But that AFTR was plain weird, it was the Nick show, not the Andi and Josh show.

Again this is just my opinion. But much like everyone else here, I am entitled to it. I have no proof, but CH saying that he was happy for J&A or any other crap means nothing to me. If Josh had dumped Andi, he would have happily promoted scorned Josh as the next bachelor all through BiP and now. CH is a company man/sleaze.

stuckinsc wrote:

ReneeM wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

What I saw, was that Cecily said if you weren't happy in the FS, say something or leave.  Don't stay and act happy then leave and act like it was torture.

I think that is what most of us who were annoyed by Andi and her behavior thought.

To me that wasn't calling Andi a liar, it was questioning how she behaved in the situation.

One of the reasons I loved Andi on JP's season, then on hers, so much is because I saw a lot of similarities in our personalities, so I have a different point of view. Let's say the producers had nothing to do intervening and Andi decided to stay during the FS and leave the next day on her own. I see why people would question her motives, but for me, who's been in situations similar with people I've dated, It's very possible that Andi acted happy because she WANTED be happy. The bach/ette always thank the contestants for the sacrifices they made to be there, In andi's PoV she sacrificed so much to be there, she didn't want it to be for nothing, so she pretended everything was ok until she couldn't pretend anymore. It happens sometimes, when you want something to work so bad, that you ignore the warning signs until finally you can't ignore them anymore. Even when she left I believe Nikki said something along the lines of 'I knew she had doubts but not enough to leave' or something along those lines

Andi said that she sat there all night miserable and faking sleep.  This is JMO, but when you chose to stay in a situation where you are miserable and not tell the other person, then you should not complain or blame them.  How is someone supposed to help or make it better if they don't know they are doing anything wrong?

I have done this to my hubby once.  I was upset, but tried the silent treatment and sat waiting for him to ask and try to make it better.  Once I finally got so mad and told him he was mean to not care about me and my feelings he let me know that he didn't realize anything was wrong.  He said that if I was upset, I needed to tell him, or he probably would screw up.  

I learned a lot from that argument at the beginning of our relationship.  

I know I hate it when others get mad at me, but won't tell me why or even give me the chance to do better, exactly how is that fair?

I don't know if this is something that Andi does, I know it was something I did and thank goodness for my hubby, I think him confronting me has helped me to be a better person.  I hope Andi might learn from it too.

I don't believe there was anything for Andi to discuss with jpg because she knew she wasn't into him before the FS, and she ONLY was hanging in so she would get the next lead spot. The early morning walk-a-way, the disgusted "I'm out of here" comments all seemed terribly contrived to me in the usual tptb way.

Since much was said about Juan Pablo never saying anything negative about Andi or Josh I want to add this. I just came across an Reality TV World article which was written right after Nikki and Juan Pablo's ATFR. Nikki was asked about Andi, to which she essentially said that people are allowed to have their opinions and no matter what Andi and Nikki will always be friends. She then added that Andi would be at her wedding someday. Juan Pablo then snarkly stated "well, you'll be marrying a different guy then."

Looks like according to Juan Pablo, Andi won't be attending his wedding either.

Ash2214 wrote:Since much was said about Juan Pablo never saying anything negative about Andi or Josh I want to add this. I just came across an Reality TV World article which was written right after Nikki and Juan Pablo's ATFR. Nikki was asked about Andi, to which she essentially said that people are allowed to have their opinions and no matter what Andi and Nikki will always be friends. She then added that Andi would be at her wedding someday. Juan Pablo then snarkly stated "well, you'll be marrying a different guy then."

Looks like according to Juan Pablo, Andi won't be attending his wedding either.

:cutesmile!: This is rich, isn't it? I just can't it seems that both couples feel the same way... I wonder if this was before Josh's infamous quote?

luvlady345 wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:Since much was said about Juan Pablo never saying anything negative about Andi or Josh I want to add this. I just came across an Reality TV World article which was written right after Nikki and Juan Pablo's ATFR. Nikki was asked about Andi, to which she essentially said that people are allowed to have their opinions and no matter what Andi and Nikki will always be friends. She then added that Andi would be at her wedding someday. Juan Pablo then snarkly stated "well, you'll be marrying a different guy then."

Looks like according to Juan Pablo, Andi won't be attending his wedding either.

:cutesmile!: This is rich, isn't it?  I just can't it seems that both couples feel the same way...  I wonder if this was before Josh's infamous quote?

It was said in March after his AFTR, and he said it with a wink, he was joking.  I saw the same interview.

stuckinsc wrote:

luvlady345 wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:Since much was said about Juan Pablo never saying anything negative about Andi or Josh I want to add this. I just came across an Reality TV World article which was written right after Nikki and Juan Pablo's ATFR. Nikki was asked about Andi, to which she essentially said that people are allowed to have their opinions and no matter what Andi and Nikki will always be friends. She then added that Andi would be at her wedding someday. Juan Pablo then snarkly stated "well, you'll be marrying a different guy then."

Looks like according to Juan Pablo, Andi won't be attending his wedding either.

:cutesmile!: This is rich, isn't it?  I just can't it seems that both couples feel the same way...  I wonder if this was before Josh's infamous quote?

It was said in March after his AFTR, and he said it with a wink, he was joking.  I saw the same interview.

There was no video. It was one of the interviews that all of the leads do with their F1 over the phone.

How about something positive...Andi just posted a nice pre wedding pic of herself, bride to be & others.

stuckinsc wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

Actually Josh's tweet could have effected Aaron's career.  It wasn't just an innocent slip.  Look at Percy Harvin this week and getting traded to the Jets.  Even when you are the most talented player if you cause too much grief then you are not going to get to stay on a team.  Percy Harvin has enough talent that he will be given many chances.  Aaron is still rehabbing a very serious injury.  He does not need to be labelled as a trouble maker or as having a family that causes trouble.

Also, how many of Nick's actions were TPTB directed or produced?  We will never know.  The letter could have been written right before MTA or right after Nick got home from DR.  We don't know.  TPTB might have contacted Nick to say that Andi wasn't happy instead of Nick contacting them.  Again we will never know.  I am told constantly that I don't know what J&A are doing or thinking.  I agree, we also don't know what Nick was doing or thinking only the edited version we were shown.

I wish Nick had never asked her that question, I do think CH pushed and pushed until he did, but I said then he shouldn't have said it.  

Ultimately forgiveness should be given not based on the "crime" but because it is the Christian thing to do.  And if you ask for forgiveness you should also give it.

A simple no comment about people Josh doesn't like would imply that he doesn't like them without crossing over a line.

To me, that's just an excuse. No one put a gun to Nick's head and said he needed to try to contact Andi on more than one occasion. No one put a gun to his head and forced him into posting pictures on his twitter with Andi. No one put a gun to his head and forced him to write Andi that love letter that certainly implied that he wanted a second chance with her. He admitted on the phone conversation from the plane that he wasn't happy with her choice and trashed the guy she did pick. Heck, he even mentioned a "Mesnick" while on the phone. According to RS, his friend that recorded it said Nick mentioned he wanted to write her a letter.

Personally, I don't think CH forced or pushed anything out of him. What pushed it out of him was Andi telling him the truth that she said she should have told him months ago. Nothing was wrong with Nick as they had a great relationship, but she fell in love with someone else and that relationship was more right. IMO, it looked like Nick was hoping that Andi would change her mind about Josh or at the very least he expected Andi to be affectionate towards him and when he didn't get that, he dropped the bomb to hurt her. Did he really think that on live television she would actually answer him?

This isn't Nick's thread though so I don't know why he keeps being brought up. I won't go any further in order to not go completely off topic.

I'm all for saying that Josh stating that to a magazine was dumb, but I don't get the outrage of his comments. He doesn't like Juan Pablo's character and doesn't want him at his wedding. People are allowed to have opinions. Just like Josh dislikes Juan Pablo, there are people who dislike Andi.  

Andi told Ali that Nick had never tried to contact her until MTA.  So I can believe that TPTB made contact with him and told him that J&A were having problems and that Andi maybe rethinking things.  Nick did go to the MTA and he did allow them to use the letter whenever he wrote it.  I think he had a $5 million dollar lawsuit threat as a good incentive, but he hasn't claimed that and we truly will never know.

I do feel CH pushed and pushed until Nick said what he did.  It is okay if you don't, you are allowed.

But CH's blogs and almost anything out of CH's mouth to me are lies or highly questionable.  The man lies as easily as he breathes and will say whatever is required to forward TPTB's storyline.  They don't want you to think they might have been trying to stir trouble in paradise, but I still think TPTB wanted Josh as bachelor.

It is only my opinion, but I think early on they wanted Eric or Josh as their next bachelor.  She would have been allowed Josh without interference if she could have played nice and kept Eric until at least HTDs.  Unlike Eric, I don't think Andi is a good actress.  I believe Andi started realizing in week three when Eric was perfect but she really wasn't into him like Josh or even Nick that she didn't want him.  Unlike Cody or Dylan or most other guys Eric wasn't going to just be happy with a little bit of something here or there.  He wanted to build on the relationship he thought they started.  She was incredibly rude to read the flower note in front of Eric and then get up and leave.  After that he wanted answers and truthfully, I thought it was hard for Andi to not be honest and tell him, I am just not into you.  So instead we get the fight after which Eric obviously had to leave and unfortunately, that was just way to early for TPTB to use him as a lead.  

So then they wanted Josh.  I do believe they hit on her insecurities with Josh and also pushed her to chose Nick.  They weren't going to get Josh to not want her, so they had to try to get her to not want him.  It didn't work, but with the plane video they had a chance to try to get Nick to believe that Andi might not be happy and that he still had a chance.  So Nick tweets a lot and posts pics of him and Andi, he emphasizes the love that he felt, which sorry, I do believe was real, maybe stupid, but real.  He wants her still, so he tries to win her back, believing that she might want him too and that she is not happy.  The mentioning on the plane video to me of Jason, show producers were trying to set Nick up to believe that she might change her mind.  They just got lucky that Nick screwed up so had to play along maybe more than he wanted to.  I think TPTB really hoped that the Nick tweets and the edit and everything might cause tension with Josh and Andi and in the end if they could get Nick to out her on AFTR, then maybe Josh would dump her.  Of course, Josh didn't bother to watch the season except for his parts, which seems to be a strategy that both Chris S and Nikki used too.  And good for Andi she had told Josh all about the FS with Nick, so TPTB was SOL.  But that AFTR was plain weird, it was the Nick show, not the Andi and Josh show.  

Again this is just my opinion.  But much like everyone else here, I am entitled to it.  I have no proof, but CH saying that he was happy for J&A or any other crap means nothing to me.  If Josh had dumped Andi, he would have happily promoted scorned Josh as the next bachelor all through BiP and now.  CH is a company man/sleaze.

It's not often that I agree with you stuckinsc, but on this note, I have to concur. I think the reason why Josh was getting so much air time, probably more than any other cast member was because they were lining him up to be the bachelor. They just didn't factor in that both Andi and Josh would be so smitten and serious about each other. Had Josh become the bachelor, I think it would have been the best ratings to date for the show because he is smoking hot, has charisma and just someone who is fun. Chris is the parallel opposite I would say of Josh, let's see how him as a lead would work out!

Ash2214 wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

luvlady345 wrote:

:cutesmile!: This is rich, isn't it?  I just can't it seems that both couples feel the same way...  I wonder if this was before Josh's infamous quote?

It was said in March after his AFTR, and he said it with a wink, he was joking.  I saw the same interview.

There was no video. It was one of the interviews that all of the leads do with their F1 over the phone.

He also said it in a live interview after the show and he was laughing. I have never listened to the phone interviews, only read the transcripts. He said it multiple times joking. To me this was on par with Andi tweeting Ess Okay with a pic of Sharleen or Kelly touching her eyebrow.

Josh has said about at least two different people that he doesn't approve of those kind of people. With no humor. So nope, not the same thing.

Ash2214 wrote:Since much was said about Juan Pablo never saying anything negative about Andi or Josh I want to add this. I just came across an Reality TV World article which was written right after Nikki and Juan Pablo's ATFR. Nikki was asked about Andi, to which she essentially said that people are allowed to have their opinions and no matter what Andi and Nikki will always be friends. She then added that Andi would be at her wedding someday. Juan Pablo then snarkly stated "well, you'll be marrying a different guy then."

Looks like according to Juan Pablo, Andi won't be attending his wedding either.

Great find.  :cutesmile!:    Juan, Juan.  He always speaks his mind.