Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

dw_a_mom wrote:

ironcat wrote:Whether he did or he didn't, I think it's easier for people to believe that Nick planned to embarrass Andi on ATFR due to the way he came across on the show, as being so cocky and dismissive of every guy's feelings except his own.

If I had been Andi, the thing that would have insulted me the most as far as Nick's post filming behavior (excluding the blurt out) would be the note.  That was not an attempt at closure but a "pitch" for another chance with her and a "dig" at her personally for being too chicken to make the "right" choice.  Even if the producers were telling him that she was unhappy with Josh, that still wasn't his place.  Even his admirer Sharleen said that the decision for a "Mesnick" was 100% HER call, not his.

Bottom line is that both did/handled things poorly, and those things kept the ball rolling and prompted further poor decisions/behavior on the other's part.  

That note is the kind of thing people can and should write to get their feelings out and help with the process of closure.  However, and here is a key caveat:  you aren't supposed to actually send it!  I can't help but wonder if his handler was involved in encouraging that second step - the show loves drama.  

And, we have to remember, Andi left that door open in her break up conversation with Nick.  I realize that was because of the "show" and having to leave some suspense for if she was going to choose Josh or no one, but her refusal to do more than shrug left it open for Nick to believe she either wasn't with anyone, or wasn't all that sure about Josh.  I agree that no way could a letter ever change the results, but we can expect there was a handler whispering something different in Nick's ear, and basically convincing him that what we know makes him look like a fool, won't actually do so.

The only cockiness I saw in him during filming was fed by Andi's actions.  In front of Nick and often in front of the guys, she treated him as her favorite.  Nick is the kind of man I feel I know really, really well, living out here surrounded by tech.

The guy's main issue is that his social skills are a bit flawed, and people refuse to allow for that because he is in sales.  But remember:  he is in sales (or, actually, a sales EXECUTIVE) in the TECH industry, where everyone's social skills are a bit flawed.  He isn't expected to make a product look like something it isn't; he is expected to know the technical qualities of his product and match it to the right buyer.  He doesn't have to be slick at all and, in fact, being false, ever, would make him less relatable to his clients.

Totally agree that for many people it is just easier to believe the slip was calculated.  But I just don't see how anyone gets there.

Totally agree both Andi and Nick made mistakes.  I'm willing to forgive them both; they are human, and not used to the glare of media.  I like to see good things in both their futures.  They gave of themselves to entertain me; I owe them.

Very good post, DW a mom.   

Lucas15 wrote:

Sable wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:When we have control to help someone find closure to someone who is hurt, IMO as a common courtesy, because we are only here for a good time and not a long time, it's the decent thing to do. Just the way I roll in life. Compassion is first regardless of the situation.

So agree w/your post!  That is why I was so taken aback by Andi's lack of compassion or attempt to provide closure to Nick on ATFR.  He has stated that her demeanor did provide him the closure he was lacking before.  I can't remember another lead that had a similar demeanor with their F2.  Usually they are very contrite and sympathetic and want to provide closure so that everyone is able to move on.

I've spent quite a bit of time carefully watching the scene shot in SD where Andi broke it off with Nick. She was emotional, soft, compassionate and gave Nick a clearly articulated reason for shy she didn't believe their relationship was right. She even related how she felt to the situation that Nick himself had experienced on his own and compared her reasons for breaking it off with Nick to Nick's reasons for breaking off his own past engagement. And though not in so many words she effectively told Nick that it was Josh. She gave Nick an unambiguous answer which was probably better closure than I've ever seen any lead ever give. And almost nothing of what Andi said sank in to Nick; if he didn't understand her reasons he had the perfect opportunity to ask for clarification but instead he somewhat argumentatively picked on Andi for things she said or did.

Since that night in SD, Andi has most probably seen a lot more of Nick and things he's said about her and things he's said about Josh who by now is her alter ego (reference the plane video and the deleted scene with Brian and Nick's interactions with the other guys which she would not have been privy to during filming). And she's got a lot of reasons to be angry with Nick because of what he said. The very fact that Nick said it was her demeanor at the ATFR that gave him the closure he didn't get says that what he really needed a smack with a 2 x 4 alongside the head to make it sink in. In which case Andi did what she had to do when compassion didn't work.

Love all your posts Lucas.

MiaHawk wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:When we have control to help someone find closure to someone who is hurt, IMO as a common courtesy, because we are only here for a good time and not a long time, it's the decent thing to do. Just the way I roll in life. Compassion is first regardless of the situation.

Whether Andi felt it was real with Nick or not, she should have felt some sort of compassion letting him go, for either leading him on, or for the good relationship she did have with him. It's like she purposely held back any logical reasoning.

While Josh was over the moon during the FRC, I didn't find her totally into the moment like he was. She has proven without a doubt, don't voice your opinions to her, don't say anything she doesn't want to hear. Josh has the ability to inject humour in serious discussions, which I love. I hope there doesn't come a time when she throws that back in his face.

You know, after the incident with Eric and then his passing, and them showing the CH Eric chat and grieving session, you would have thought that perhaps Andi would have learned that life is short and never to assume that you'll have another chance to smooth things over. She was crying, "I can't believe I kicked him out. I can't believe that was my last conversation with him."  What she didn't do with Eric was listen to his feelings and try to see things from his point of view. She heard a criticism and immediately shut down emotionally and went into pitbull mode. Then she repeated this with Nick post show. What if something horrible happened/s to Nick post ATFR, will she have the same kind of regrets? Why the mean girl, Andi? It's not attractive. It's off putting to me.  

I actually thought about the same thing this afternoon!  
It's a good lesson for myself.

sdmom wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:When we have control to help someone find closure to someone who is hurt, IMO as a common courtesy, because we are only here for a good time and not a long time, it's the decent thing to do. Just the way I roll in life. Compassion is first regardless of the situation.

Whether Andi felt it was real with Nick or not, she should have felt some sort of compassion letting him go, for either leading him on, or for the good relationship she did have with him. It's like she purposely held back any logical reasoning.

While Josh was over the moon during the FRC, I didn't find her totally into the moment like he was. She has proven without a doubt, don't voice your opinions to her, don't say anything she doesn't want to hear. Josh has the ability to inject humour in serious discussions, which I love. I hope there doesn't come a time when she throws that back in his face.

You know, after the incident with Eric and then his passing, and them showing the CH Eric chat and grieving session, you would have thought that perhaps Andi would have learned that life is short and never to assume that you'll have another chance to smooth things over. She was crying, "I can't believe I kicked him out. I can't believe that was my last conversation with him."  What she didn't do with Eric was listen to his feelings and try to see things from his point of view. She heard a criticism and immediately shut down emotionally and went into pitbull mode. Then she repeated this with Nick post show. What if something horrible happened/s to Nick post ATFR, will she have the same kind of regrets? Why the mean girl, Andi? It's not attractive. It's off putting to me.  

I actually thought about the same thing this afternoon!  
It's a good lesson for myself.

Why the mean girl you say? Because she is dealing with a pretty mean boy at this point. He has snarked, ridiculed, badmouthed and then retaliated to being rejected by outing Andi on national TV. Each of us chooses to interpret what we have seen in our own ways. To me, Nick cooked his goose over the past weeks and Andi has moved from compassion when letting him go to just plain annoyance.

Face it, the time I feel really guilty about this guilty is pleasure is when a F2 wasn't handled well and/or unable to handle being the F2. If we didn't watch, it wouldn't happen. And yet we'll be back next season.

I can analyze and talk about the times Nick put his foot in it, and all the ways Andi should have done better, but I can't blame anyone, because by giving the show ratings and taking the water-cooler topic bait, I am a part of all the things I don't like about this show.

estahafa wrote:Hello Lucas!  You've always been the voice of reason even during Sean's season.  I am able to see the situation from Andi's point of view, her having already seen from all the episodes how Nick was to all the other guys, how he dissed Josh in one of the deleted scenes.  I am more surprised that she stayed calm and collected when we know she is very capable of engaging in an all out tongue-lashing confrontation with anyone who angers her!

Thanks and that was my point and here's a little bit more about why I posted what I did. Andi had really been compassionate in tone and clever in tactics when she first told Nick in SD that it wouldn't work out. She even related her feelings of something wrong to Nick's past experience when Nick felt something was wrong as seen in this little bit of dialog:

Andi: We were talking and you told me that the last time you got engaged you woke up that morning and didn't feel that something was right. Well, this morning I woke up and I didn't feel that something was right. And I can't go through with something that I don't think is right ... the feeling of not right. It's not right, it's not what I envisioned. It's clear to me that the things I see in you, the things I see with us are ultimately not what I think is best for us.

Nick: When did you start feeling this?
Andi: I mean I started feeling like knowing the intensity between us I felt that worry like that worry there being so much intensity and so much over analyzing, and then honestly like the last date I wanted to just have fun and wanted to relax and as hard as I tried I couldn't do that with you. It's like we both over analyze everything and I feel like a life with you would be me over analyzing every. single. moment. and ...
Nick: You really think so?
Andi: Yeah, I do

A good way to try and achieve understanding of another person is to relate your feelings to ones they have personally had. It didn't work but it was still tactically brilliant. So far, so good. Then it went sideways on her. Instead of staying focused on what Andi had just said Nick turns the conversation into an attack on Andi and her actions; perhaps a good tactic in a debate or an argument (the best defense is a good offense) but it torpedoes the possibility of really understanding a breakup and getting closure:

Nick: When I told you I love you ... I don't know how you could look at me the way you did and (???) the way you did and be sitting here right now and ... and so when you looked at me sometimes and smiled at me sometimes I just took it that you meant it.

Now Andi has to try and defend her actions instead of further try to explain them:

Andi: I did mean it. Every time I looked at you, every time I kissed you, I DID mean it ... But I never told you ...
Nick: I know that.

Then Nick takes a different tactic:

Nick: Is this more about us or someone else?

Now Andi dropped her eyes and looked ashamed as she says:

Andi: I'm sorry (tears)

So though not in so many words but in a pretty clear way Andi does tell Nick that there is someone else and that she's sorry there is. Unfortunately Nick turns this back around again, makes it about him and how he feels and again attacks Andi:

Nick: I woke up excited and scared this morning. God, wow, this is f****ed up. I woke up so confident. Just because of ... Sometimes I feel like you took it too far.
Andi: Like I took it too far?

Nick: When we were in the water .. I just remember after I told you I loved you and you said I wish I could say things back
Andi: [nods]
Nick: I just .. certain things I wish you would never have said ... or done.
Andi: looks down, presses her finger on her chin

I'm sure most of us missed the significance of what Nick meant when he added the "or done" statement but it seems he was alluding to the love making in the fantasy suite.

Nick: I know it was hard for you too. I just hope that you're a million percent sure and not scared
Andi: I do too. ... I'm gonna go

Now here Andi made her first real tactical blunder. She SHOULD have said "I am more than a million percent sure" instead of "I do too". I think she was sure (by this time Josh had actually told her he loved her and wanted to marry her) but trying to save a little bit of Nick's feelings backfired on her and probably set up Nick's expectations of a Mesnick. Perhaps there was no way to have avoided it anyway but this is the one place where Andi could have done better.

Now roll the calendar ahead 2 months to the ATFR. Andi has now seen what we saw, including the conversations of an overly confident Nick and the guys, probably the deleted scene of Nick talking about his dog named Murray and how she and Josh are terrible together, and also what Nick said about her (and Josh) on the plane video, because that's how the stage was set for ATFR.

Even if you're not ADA Andi - what would your mind-set be?

Lucas15 wrote:

estahafa wrote:Hello Lucas!  You've always been the voice of reason even during Sean's season.  I am able to see the situation from Andi's point of view, her having already seen from all the episodes how Nick was to all the other guys, how he dissed Josh in one of the deleted scenes.  I am more surprised that she stayed calm and collected when we know she is very capable of engaging in an all out tongue-lashing confrontation with anyone who angers her!

Thanks and that was my point and here's a little bit more about why I posted what I did. Andi had really been compassionate in tone and clever in tactics when she first told Nick in SD that it wouldn't work out. She even related her feelings of something wrong to Nick's past experience when Nick felt something was wrong as seen in this little bit of dialog:

Andi: We were talking and you told me that the last time you got engaged you woke up that morning and didn't feel that something was right. Well, this morning I woke up and I didn't feel that something was right. And I can't go through with something that I don't think is right ... the feeling of not right. It's not right, it's not what I envisioned. It's clear to me that the things I see in you, the things I see with us are ultimately not what I think is best for us.

Nick: When did you start feeling this?
Andi: I mean I started feeling like knowing the intensity between us I felt that worry like that worry there being so much intensity and so much over analyzing, and then honestly like the last date I wanted to just have fun and wanted to relax and as hard as I tried I couldn't do that with you. It's like we both over analyze everything and I feel like a life with you would be me over analyzing every. single. moment. and ...
Nick: You really think so?
Andi: Yeah, I do

A good way to try and achieve understanding of another person is to relate your feelings to ones they have personally had. It didn't work but it was still tactically brilliant. So far, so good. Then it went sideways on her. Instead of staying focused on what Andi had just said Nick turns the conversation into an attack on Andi and her actions; perhaps a good tactic in a debate or an argument (the best defense is a good offense) but it torpedoes the possibility of really understanding a breakup and getting closure:

Nick: When I told you I love you ... I don't know how you could look at me the way you did and (???) the way you did and be sitting here right now and ... and so when you looked at me sometimes and smiled at me sometimes I just took it that you meant it.

Now Andi has to try and defend her actions instead of further try to explain them:

Andi: I did mean it. Every time I looked at you, every time I kissed you, I DID mean it ... But I never told you ...
Nick: I know that.

Then Nick takes a different tactic:

Nick: Is this more about us or someone else?

Now Andi dropped her eyes and looked ashamed as she says:

Andi: I'm sorry (tears)

So though not in so many words but in a pretty clear way Andi does tell Nick that there is someone else and that she's sorry there is. Unfortunately Nick turns this back around again, makes it about him and how he feels and again attacks Andi:

Nick: I woke up excited and scared this morning. God, wow, this is f****ed up. I woke up so confident. Just because of ... Sometimes I feel like you took it too far.
Andi: Like I took it too far?

Nick: When we were in the water .. I just remember after I told you I loved you and you said I wish I could say things back
Andi: [nods]
Nick: I just .. certain things I wish you would never have said ... or done.
Andi: looks down, presses her finger on her chin

I'm sure most of us missed the significance of what Nick meant when he added the "or done" statement but it seems he was alluding to the love making in the fantasy suite.

Nick: I know it was hard for you too. I just hope that you're a million percent sure and not scared
Andi: I do too. ... I'm gonna go

Now here Andi made her first real tactical blunder. She SHOULD have said "I am more than a million percent sure" instead of "I do too". I think she was sure (by this time Josh had actually told her he loved her and wanted to marry her) but trying to save a little bit of Nick's feelings backfired on her and probably set up Nick's expectations of a Mesnick. Perhaps there was no way to have avoided it anyway but this is the one place where Andi could have done better.

Now roll the calendar ahead 2 months to the ATFR. Andi has now seen what we saw, including the conversations of an overly confident Nick and the guys, probably the deleted scene of Nick talking about his dog named Murray and how she and Josh are terrible together, and also what Nick said about her (and Josh) on the plane video, because that's how the stage was set for ATFR.

Even if you're not ADA Andi - what would your mind-set be?

What a wonderful analysis of the conversations leading up to ATFR -- even though they may have been "diced and spliced" by TPTB to build DRAMA. Your assessment is SPOT ON! IMO by this time in the season, Andi was thinking and reacting less like an ADA and more like a woman in love, caught in a very difficult situation. A lot of us have attributed this change to her growing relationship with Josh and the positive effects he had on her. And, contractually, she really could not say she was "a million percent certain" lest that scene be leaked as so many others have been.

  Lucas15,  you ARE brilliant! always love your posts.    

To all of you, who have added so much insight to this season, THANK YOU! I have spent many hours since the airing of the ATFR watching my favorite segments of the season. However, I have a "favorite" of the initial interviews following the finale that I am unable to locate. Perhaps one of you can help me find it -- the interview when Andi says (paraphrasing here) -- Since the finale, I have mentioned "I can't wait to get engaged, and Josh has reminded me that we are engaged, just can't wear the ring yet!" I LOVE this insight into her "girly" side. Any ideas on where I can find this video clip, so I can watch it again? Thanks, y'all!

Great analysis, Lucas! I think you bring up a great point that unlike most leads that tell their f2s "you're amazing but I'm in love with someone else," she actually gave a reason why their specific relationship isn't right, in addition to there being someone else as well.

For atfr, I think she was so guarded and came ready for a fight not only because he kept contacting her but all of his comments about Josh, both in the Steve video and also on the show. Josh is like a part of her at this point, and the things Nick has said about him- that he's basically the simplest form of life out there, bad temper, dog named Murray, on and on- have probably pushed her over the edge.

Alanna wrote:Great analysis, Lucas! I think you bring up a great point that unlike most leads that tell their f2s "you're amazing but I'm in love with someone else," she actually gave a reason why their specific relationship isn't right, in addition to there being someone else as well.

For atfr, I think she was so guarded and came ready for a fight not only because he kept contacting her but all of his comments about Josh, both in the Steve video and also on the show. Josh is like a part of her at this point, and the things Nick has said about him- that he's basically the simplest form of life out there, bad temper, dog named Murray, on and on- have probably pushed her over the edge.

Great choice of words Alanna. "Josh is a part of her at this point."  :cutesmile!:  Well said!

Alanna wrote:Great analysis, Lucas! I think you bring up a great point that unlike most leads that tell their f2s "you're amazing but I'm in love with someone else," she actually gave a reason why their specific relationship isn't right, in addition to there being someone else as well.

Great point and perhaps why I think this was one of the best attempts at giving closure I can remember. She really did give a good reason couched in terms Nick should have understood. I somehow think if Andi was reading this forum and posting her views she might say something like:

Nick brought out the attorney in me and Josh brings out the girl / woman in me. I want to be an attorney at work but when I come home to my husband I don't want to be a district attorney, I want to be a woman and do girly things.

For atfr, I think she was so guarded and came ready for a fight not only because he kept contacting her but all of his comments about Josh, both in the Steve video and also on the show. Josh is like a part of her at this point, and the things Nick has said about him- that he's basically the simplest form of life out there, bad temper, dog named Murray, on and on- have probably pushed her over the edge.

And I'll clearly admit she was different at the ATFR than she was in DR and in this key scene. And I agree with those things you point out that changed her view and account for that difference. But she was at one time compassionate and empathetic and gave Nick valid reasons for what she did. At one time.

Just like Josh had an edge when it came to Nick after what happened, I see that edge as protecting his fiancee and Andi is / was also protecting her fiance. That's a big part of why I think they work as a couple and that's what partners in life do - they have each others back and they protect each other. I can't fault either of them for doing this and I'd be worried about them if they didn't.

With Sean and Catherine from the ATFR on I felt they had really matured during the time their show aired and had transitioned from two people who had dated a little (on the show) to a couple pretty well in tune with each other on the ATFR. I see the same in Andi and Josh. It seems that they had more than just the bi-weekly safe house visits - taking advantage of the same home town and spending a LOT of time together - and it shows in their relationship.