Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Bachelorette 10 - General Discussion

dw_a_mom wrote:

Eagle Eye wrote:
Kind of interesting that Sharleen is STILL using it in her blog but doesn't seem to get any grief about it.

Sharleen genuinely likes most people, and has good things to say about others, so with her jokes come across as made with love.  She really did and does like Juan Pablo.

I agree, but I also cringed when I read it in her blog. So no, I didn't appreciate it from Sharleen either.

The thing that got me about the whole "it's okay" thing was how Andi got her panties in a wad over it the morning after the FS, and then continued on with her outrage at WTA and on SM.  

She got aggravated and angry over "it's okay" in part because she was mocking his English but IMO mostly because JPG wasn't engaging in an argument with her.  She wanted a debate.  She wanted to battle.  And when JPG simply said "it's okay" she went ballistic, because she couldn't cross examine him and put him in his place. How dare he waste 8 hours of her precious time in the FS talking *gasp* about himself?

The way I saw the whole thing was that JPG, for whom English is his second language, used the slang "it's okay" as way to communicate "yes", "I understand", "I accept that", "I hear what you are saying", "I'm not mad about it", "there really isn't a need for us to continue this conversation", "if you don't like me I accept that you can leave of your own accord", "It's okay because I realize that I don't like you either".

I watched that scene and it reminded me of a parent (JPG) who is trying to diffuse a toddler's (AD) temper tantrum. For the life of me I don't understand why this *role model for strong women* didn't simply tell JPG in the FS how she was not feeling it and that she wouldn't be staying the entire night with him.  Isn't that part of the premise of the show, that a woman can decide at any time that the Bachelor is not somebody that they can see themselves with, and all she needed to do was remove herself from the show with dignity and class instead of turning into a vengeful witch hell bent on asserting her superiority over the poor, stupid, Latino man.

I don't really read Sharlene's blogs, except when I read an occasional one here.  But IIRC, at the WTA Sharlene was actually kind and caring towards JPG and stood up for him at times.  Andi's the one who carried on with her bashing post-show.  But I don't excuse it from Sharlene either.

As I sit here reading some of these comments, my mind is just blown away.

In our society, women are not really viewed as equal. For various reasons, women are put down quite frequently. What makes a strong woman? Certainly not putting down other women. It's just so funny to me reading these comments about what makes up a strong woman, but yet there are women here posting harsh comments about a woman they have never even met over actions that were done on a silly television show that have zero affect on all of us. I can understand making some comments about some of her actions (I've done that with Nick several times, but each time I've admitted that I don't know him and I'm sure he's a good guy in real life and have defended him in some ways) but it has gotten pretty bad when you write about her as a person.

I don't need to go into details about the things I think Andi has going for her or how I viewed her on the show. I just dislike seeing women put down other women, especially over produced reality television shows that in all actuality, only took up about four to five months of her life while filming.

Has there been a time where you have made fun of someone? Has there been a time where you got worked up and argued with someone when you shouldn't have? Heck, I know that I have and I would hate to be called names and dissected the way Andi is here.

This is all just my opinion of course and I'm not trying to force anyone to stop posting their opinions on this thread at all. All opinions and posts are most definitely welcomed, but as a 23 year old woman that's about to start grad school in two weeks, I think it would be nice to have women support other women and realize no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. We shouldn't be judged for them - especially when the mistakes were done on produced reality television shows.

soccermom333 wrote:

bleuberry wrote:Well Jillian should speak for herself. I think it's far more common for the Bettes to sleep with their f1 than to sleep with all three.

Jillian and Ed never made it a secret that they "went after it" so quick.  Wes even made some comments about himself and Ed having sex with Jillian in the mansion in LA.  All water under the bridge but Jillian is very liberal on her views about sex, and I might disagree, but not going to judge.  

I was surprised how honest jillian has been about the other leads on the show.  I do agree she should keep those opinions to herself.  Not surprised that she is very pro Andi.  

Really? Precisely when and what did he say, for what you said (and I bolded) is news for me and I followed Jillian's season closely.

I sent you a PM amberish. ;)

Sorry Stuck,  my reply to you was to the wrong post,  here goes again:

stuckinsc wrote:

vivi2 wrote: I watched this season because I liked/like Andi. She is sassy, spunky, blunt, headstrong, feisty, no filter and very smart....so she's different than any other 'rettes in the past. She reminds me of Judge Judy and who wouldn't like Judge Judy??

Andi is the best bachelorette so far IMO.  She has a strong work ethic, takes her job seriously. has to act a little bit because it's still a TV show after all.

I don't find her cold or mean on the show. She obviously cares about the guys, asks a lot of questions, wants to give everyone a chance, hence develops strong feelings for more than one guy.. She handles Dylan's break-down or Eric's death with compassion.  

I think people judge her too harshly. Nobody is perfect. According to Jillian H.  the leads will sleep with all of the F3. Why only Andi's called a s***t?, just because her F2 kisses and tells?

I guess maybe it is the wisdom of age that makes me realize that compassion is better than anger.  While the examples given when people were nice to Andi were great, but when questioned like with Eric, she attacks and her lack of compassion shown even in the interview after Eric's death shows a huge lack of that. 

I don't see a strong work ethic from Andi, because since we have met her she hasn't worked, not a day, so I don't know if she has a strong work ethic or not.  Sorry, but the bachelor and the bachelorette are not jobs.  If you want a bachelorette who had a strong work ethic and went back to work, look at Ashley not Andi. 

I found her very cold with Dylan and even Eric so I can't agree.  Also I don't like Judge Judy.

I work with strong women and I know a lot of them.  Again, I find both Murray women strong, not Andi.  Josh should have watched more of Andi's season then just his parts.  Then he might have seen how she acts when things are easy, when she comes against stress and difficulty.

I have never called Andi a s***.  As far as I know, one ignorant man on one channel called Andi a s***.  Has anyone since then?  She is not a victim, so nope, not feeling sorry for her on that anymore either.

Again, when Andi learns to add compassion and grace when she is challenged I will be impressed with her and admire her, but until then I don't wish to admire her and don't think she is someone who should be setup as an example.  Even her tweets, while she is touting her new relationship, I see nothing of substance.  When I get that I will be impressed, but now, nope.

I respect your opinion, promise! To me, the Lead has a job, even only temporary, still a job. It's a TV show so the lead is the "star" and the contestants are co-stars ,so to speak. Before going on the "journey", the Lead has to sign a contract, negotiate the $ and agree to co-operate with TP to make the show. TPTB - the employer, the lead - the employee. Yes, it's a JOB.

For this "job", a person w/work ethic has to date 25 people at the same time, to be fair to them, to spend time with them, to listen to their feelings, to go on dates even when you're exhausted, to be vulnerable, to be open to give/receive love, to make difficult decisions to send people home...It's a tough job!

I like Andi's personality, she's full of energy and at my age I want some of that! I didn't watch Andi when she was on TB, only saw her at the WTA, and ATFR and liked her right away.

I'll never judge anyone when they're on the show, due to the editing. What I like most about Andi is, she's just being herself and doesn't care what people think about her. I liked all the guys on her season and wouldn't get upset if she picked Nick or Chris instead of Josh.

Until Nick dropped the bomb.....

MiaHawk wrote:The thing that got me about the whole "it's okay" thing was how Andi got her panties in a wad over it the morning after the FS, and then continued on with her outrage at WTA and on SM.  

She got aggravated and angry over "it's okay" in part because she was mocking his English but IMO mostly because JPG wasn't engaging in an argument with her.  She wanted a debate.  She wanted to battle.  And when JPG simply said "it's okay" she went ballistic, because she couldn't cross examine him and put him in his place. How dare he waste 8 hours of her precious time in the FS talking *gasp* about himself?

The way I saw the whole thing was that JPG, for whom English is his second language, used the slang "it's okay" as way to communicate "yes", "I understand", "I accept that", "I hear what you are saying", "I'm not mad about it", "there really isn't a need for us to continue this conversation", "if you don't like me I accept that you can leave of your own accord", "It's okay because I realize that I don't like you either".

I watched that scene and it reminded me of a parent (JPG) who is trying to diffuse a toddler's (AD) temper tantrum. For the life of me I don't understand why this *role model for strong women* didn't simply tell JPG in the FS how she was not feeling it and that she wouldn't be staying the entire night with him.  Isn't that part of the premise of the show, that a woman can decide at any time that the Bachelor is not somebody that they can see themselves with, and all she needed to do was remove herself from the show with dignity and class instead of turning into a vengeful witch hell bent on asserting her superiority over the poor, stupid, Latino man.

I don't really read Sharlene's blogs, except when I read an occasional one here.  But IIRC, at the WTA Sharlene was actually kind and caring towards JPG and stood up for him at times.  Andi's the one who carried on with her bashing post-show.  But I don't excuse it from Sharlene either.

Ash, I do not know if your post was directly at me specifically, but if you read my post above again, you will see that I was referring to Andi's actions in relationship to a particular incident on JPG's season. It was her actions on the show that I was discussing. This is a board where we discuss a TV show. I have never met Andi and do not know her IRL. I, like 99% of people here, am simply stating my like or dislike of actions I've seen on this TV show. It's armchair constructive criticism.

IF we are to believe that the lead (and contestants) "has a job to do" in producing this TV show, then you can think of it as a job performance review. I did not appreciate the manner in which she departed JPG's season. I thought it was immature. I did not think she showed strength of character in that moment. A strong personality, yes. A strong opinion, yes. Perhaps, the same can be said for my own post above. I certainly have a strong opinion of Andi's actions during that scene, and I may not have shown the best strength of my own character in how I presented it. Point well taken. I appreciate constructive criticism. That's how we all can improve and do better. Peace.

Ash2214 wrote:As I sit here reading some of these comments, my mind is just blown away.

In our society, women are not really viewed as equal. For various reasons, women are put down quite frequently. What makes a strong woman? Certainly not putting down other women. It's just so funny to me reading these comments about what makes up a strong woman, but yet there are women here posting harsh comments about a woman they have never even met over actions that were done on a silly television show that have zero affect on all of us. I can understand making some comments about some of her actions (I've done that with Nick several times, but each time I've admitted that I don't know him and I'm sure he's a good guy in real life and have defended him in some ways) but it has gotten pretty bad when you write about her as a person.

I don't need to go into details about the things I think Andi has going for her or how I viewed her on the show. I just dislike seeing women put down other women, especially over produced reality television shows that in all actuality, only took up about four to five months of her life while filming.

Has there been a time where you have made fun of someone? Has there been a time where you got worked up and argued with someone when you shouldn't have? Heck, I know that I have and I would hate to be called names and dissected the way Andi is here.

This is all just my opinion of course and I'm not trying to force anyone to stop posting their opinions on this thread at all. All opinions and posts are most definitely welcomed, but as a 23 year old woman that's about to start grad school in two weeks, I think it would be nice to have women support other women and realize no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. We shouldn't be judged for them - especially when the mistakes were done on produced reality television shows.

I can understand where you're coming from. However, being a women myself, I don't care if the lead was male or female, if they behaved in a manner that I didn't care for, then I will express my opinions here. Whether that makes me a strong women or not, doesn't matter to me.

I personally don't think I'm entitled to anything more, just because I'm a female. Those are my opinions. To me, compassion honesty an morals are more important, whether you're male or female. So if a female behaved in an manner to which I didn't agree with, I'm not going to have more compassion for her just because she's a female.

With regards to the 2nd bold, it didn't seem to bother Andi when JPG was dissected and ridiculed to which she herself contributed to. Two wrongs don't make a right, but still, a strong women sets good examples, she didn't set good ones IMO.

^ Agree, GA. It's character that matters, not gender.

I also am not a fan of Andi's. She does have some good qualities, but those get overshadowed by the negative ones. I think she gets too defensive when called out, and it makes it look immature. I was hoping to hear from her what most other past leads have said - they cut the lead of the previous season some slack now that they have gone through the same process. She would have earned a few points in my eyes. But, nope - she has continued to bash JPG.

Mustang19 wrote:^ Agree, GA. It's character that matters, not gender.

I also am not a fan of Andi's. She does have some good qualities, but those get overshadowed by the negative ones. I think she gets too defensive when called out, and it makes it look immature. I was hoping to hear from her what most other past leads have said - they cut the lead of the previous season some slack now that they have gone through the same process. She would have earned a few points in my eyes. But, nope - she has continued to bash JPG.

  

As you say, it doesn't matter if it is the Bachelor or the Bette...both get called out, it's just that some people conveniently forget that when protecting their favourites...and this year it just happens to be a Bette. I don't know why I should give her more slack than I gave JPab last season...just because she is a woman. I wasn't a fan of his last season and she didn't impress me much then or now. Yes, she was a good Bette in some ways, but just because she may have nice and chipper when everything went her way, doesn't excuse her behaviour when it didn't. Any confrontation and she turned ugly real fast.

I wrote at the end of JPab's season...after And'si audition as the strong, tough, take no guff Bette, the WTA and other media post show...where Andi kept slamming JPab, that the things that she is being fed are the reasons why they want her as the lead will be used against her in the end and that she might have a greater appreciation for what JPab had to go through by the time she was done. But, apparently she is as stubborn as Nick said in his video, since she still refuses to acknowledge that. Most leads grow and admit post show that they now know and appreciate more what is involved in being the lead and cut their predecessor some slack. Not Andi. That to me is a sign of her lack of empathy and compassion. I don't know, maybe she does feel those things, but just refuses to show them because she thinks that will be a show of weakness, but that in itself is a sign of immaturity in my eyes. Truly strong people are able to acknowledge when they are wrong and take responsibility for their own actions. We shall see...

Ash2214 wrote:As I sit here reading some of these comments, my mind is just blown away.

In our society, women are not really viewed as equal. For various reasons, women are put down quite frequently. What makes a strong woman? Certainly not putting down other women. It's just so funny to me reading these comments about what makes up a strong woman, but yet there are women here posting harsh comments about a woman they have never even met over actions that were done on a silly television show that have zero affect on all of us. I can understand making some comments about some of her actions (I've done that with Nick several times, but each time I've admitted that I don't know him and I'm sure he's a good guy in real life and have defended him in some ways) but it has gotten pretty bad when you write about her as a person.

I don't need to go into details about the things I think Andi has going for her or how I viewed her on the show. I just dislike seeing women put down other women, especially over produced reality television shows that in all actuality, only took up about four to five months of her life while filming.

Has there been a time where you have made fun of someone? Has there been a time where you got worked up and argued with someone when you shouldn't have? Heck, I know that I have and I would hate to be called names and dissected the way Andi is here.

This is all just my opinion of course and I'm not trying to force anyone to stop posting their opinions on this thread at all. All opinions and posts are most definitely welcomed, but as a 23 year old woman that's about to start grad school in two weeks, I think it would be nice to have women support other women and realize no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. We shouldn't be judged for them - especially when the mistakes were done on produced reality television shows.

Ash, I respect you and wish you well. Graduate school is a big deal, I am working hard to finish my PhD after leaving my PhD program after 4 years the first time with a MS to help take care of my parents.

I support many women and believe in supporting other women quite a bit. I am in fact the mama of my grad school group and treat each of my classmates as individuals and equals. I have done that with the three classes of medical students I was a teaching assistant for and the classes of physician's assistants, occupational therapists and physical therapists that I took anatomy with and helped teach anatomy too. I have also been the biomedical student association president at my university and the humanitarian of the whole graduate student association.

But, the truth is that women who are mean and lack compassion will stand in the way of your accomplishments. We are judged against all other women. So I don't hold up someone who can't take criticism or show compassion to others as an example. I don't want to be judged by her. I work very hard and have for over 20 years now to be an example for women. I used to be much more petulant myself and it took a great manager teaching me that I served as a better example if I listened to others and attempted to work with them and understand them, than if I demanded they see my point of view while I wasn't seeing theirs.

The truth is that being a women is harder, so we do need to support each other, but we also need to be honest with each other too. Being a b**** doesn't make you strong it just makes you difficult.

Also, I feel the need to address that Andi is somehow the way she is because she grew up with privileged and spoiled. Most of my friends grew up privileged and spoiled to some degree, but they were also taught kindness and to care for others as well. I don't take the way Andi grew up as an excuse. I think there is a lot of good in Andi, but there are also things that she needs to work on. Like most of us. But to celebrate those traits that paint women in a bad light, nope I won't do it.

I hope Ash as you go through your career that you have wonderful mentors and become a wonderful female example to other women as well. But know that along with supporting each other, we must also help each other realize when we can improve, so that we can be the best we can be.

I believe in holding a woman to the same standards I would hold a man too.

Stuckinsc, excellent, excellent post! You show so much maturity. The fact that you have been open to realizing how you can improve yourself and your reactions to others is something other young ladies will hopefully learn. I would hope that I would never support a woman just because she's a woman no more than I would "follow" a man just because he's a man.