Re: Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Media Thread - Fan Forum - Discussion Thread #4

[nanbrooks]

I think Nick told Andi he was FIL with Andi on their date in Italy and Josh didn't say it until Ghent.  Both Josh and Nick told Andi they are in love with her on their FD.

Hmmmm...remember the whole FSD with Nick and his big thing was he was mad at himself for not saying it on the beach that day to her? That night at dinner he got up and walked her over to the palm tree and nervously told her he was in love with her. That's the first time I remember Nick saying it.

Nick was upset with himself for not saying he WAS IN LOVE with her.  He told her in Italy he was falling in love with her.  Josh was the hold out until Ghent where she said in a VO that Josh was the only one that hadn't told her that.  Josh also told her for the first time on their FD.

OK gotcha that makes sense. I have not watched Nick's dates more than once or twice but I have watched Josh's dates multiple times (for obvious reasons)  

[Lucas15]

I think to a certain extent Andi was genuinely kept off balance all on her lonesome. Obviously tptb manipulate everyone to make a good story but at the same time, they're still grow ups with their own agency, so I don't put everything on tptb.

To me the scary part of how the producers manipulate the cast to "put on a show" is that they use their knowledge of human psychology to play off specific strengths and exploit specific weaknesses that are present in everyone's character. So if, as an example, they see someone is highly confident they won't try and make them insecure (that's too hard to do) they will try to make them over confident.

So yes - to a certain extent Andi kept herself off balance on her own, but the producers made sure she didn't have an easy time to regain her balance.

[pander3575]

Hmmmm...remember the whole FSD with Nick and his big thing was he was mad at himself for not saying it on the beach that day to her? That night at dinner he got up and walked her over to the palm tree and nervously told her he was in love with her. That's the first time I remember Nick saying it.

Nick was upset with himself for not saying he WAS IN LOVE with her.  He told her in Italy he was falling in love with her.  Josh was the hold out until Ghent where she said in a VO that Josh was the only one that hadn't told her that.  Josh also told her for the first time on their FD.

OK gotcha that makes sense. I have not watched Nick's dates more than once or twice but I have watched Josh's dates multiple times (for obvious reasons)  

  I know what you mean.

[Laura Walsh]

Timfan,

I agree with you that behind Andi's exterior is somewhat of insecurity. I don't know why she should be as she has so much going for her. But I thought that on Juan Pablo's season. I remember her and Juan being on the beach or something and she started crying and said something about just wanted someone or something like that.

When her season started she said she was shocked that everybody was happy that she was the bachelorette, she was afraid they were not going to be happy about it.

So here Josh comes along (the perfect man IMO) and she wants him so badly but tells herself there is no way he can be sincere, there is no way he can fall for her. And so as Josh said in the radio interview, he worked hard for that ring.

I think she did push him away and as she said he always came back.

For all we know when she was going on her FS date with Nick TPTB may have told her "Remember what happened to Des." And maybe that's why what happened, happened. She still could have been thinking Josh was going to walk away like Brook did.

But she did say that if Josh were not there she would not have become engaged to anyone.

Since the finale Andi has seen how much Josh loves her and I'm sure he does many more things for her that we don't even know about. And I think that Andi is so so happy and in love with Josh that, yes, she gave up her job that she loved so much (although she does intend to go back to law) and she has just flourished with Josh.

And as far as Josh is concerned Andi is it for him. And this makes me so happy. He has admitted he was very picky, so who knows if he didn't meet Andi if he ever would have found the right girl.

[Relalou]

Timfan,

I agree with you that behind Andi's exterior is somewhat of insecurity.  I don't know why she should be as she has so much going for her.  But I thought that on Juan Pablo's season.  I remember her and Juan being on the beach or something and she started crying and said something about just wanted someone or something like that.

When her season started she said she was shocked that everybody was happy that she was the bachelorette, she was afraid they were not going to be happy about it.

So here Josh comes along (the perfect man IMO) and she wants him so badly but tells herself there is no way he can be sincere, there is no way he can fall for her.  And so as Josh said in the radio interview, he worked hard for that ring.

I think she did push him away and as she said he always came back.  

For all we know when she was going on her FS date with Nick TPTB may have told her "Remember what happened to Des."  And maybe that's why what happened, happened.  She still could have been thinking Josh was going to walk away like Brook did.

But she did say that if Josh were not there she would not have become engaged to anyone.

Since the finale Andi has seen how much Josh loves her and I'm sure he does many more things for her that we don't even know about.  And I think that Andi is so so happy and in love with Josh that, yes, she gave up her job that she loved so much (although she does intend to go back to law) and she has just flourished with Josh.

And as far as Josh is concerned Andi is it for him.  And this makes me so happy.  He has admitted he was very picky, so who knows if he didn't meet Andi if he ever would have found the right girl.

ITA and it brings to mind Josh's words in one of their interviews (about courting her when she asks him if he is going to do so). He says 'whatever you want. I'm a pleaser baby". I mean come on now a strong guy who is also ready to please his woman!

[docnash14]

I think to a certain extent Andi was genuinely kept off balance all on her lonesome. Obviously tptb manipulate everyone to make a good story but at the same time, they're still grow ups with their own agency, so I don't put everything on tptb.

To me the scary part of how the producers manipulate the cast to "put on a show" is that they use their knowledge of human psychology to play off specific strengths and exploit specific weaknesses that are present in everyone's character. So if, as an example, they see someone is highly confident they won't try and make them insecure (that's too hard to do) they will try to make them over confident.

So yes - to a certain extent Andi kept herself off balance on her own, but the producers made sure she didn't have an easy time to regain her balance.

Lucas, I think you are touching on an extremely important (and in my mind egregious) point. I think Andi's own insecurities fed right into the producers' machinations and made her even more susceptible and vulnerable to her own organic second (and third) guessing vis-a'-vis her decision making. Additionally, given all of the push back JP received on all fronts for not "being open to the process" I think Andi was even more propelled and compelled to stay in line and do her assigned job which entailed keeping all options open until the very end. Fortunately, Josh seems to really understand this as evidenced by his remarks in one of the recent radio interviews in which he stated awareness that Andi feared that he was going to leave and,thus, felt the need to keep all options open.

I know this has been discussed a myriad of times but your comments about the manipulations by the producers reinforces for me once again what puzzles me most about this show. Many of the cast members post-show have alluded to these manipulations (for instance, Andi in her radio interview on Monday denied that anything was scripted but admitted that during the ITM's producers ask leading questions to sway the direction of the responses) and yet remain very close to these same producers. I get the whole Stockholm syndrome phenomenon but it's still mind-blowing to me.

[Alanna]

ITA and it brings to mind Josh's words in one of their interviews (about courting her when she asks him if he is going to do so).  He says 'whatever you want.  I'm a pleaser baby".  I mean come on now a strong guy who is also ready to please his woman!

You would think he would see this as being whipped, but no, he seems to think it's the most manliest thing he can do. So cute

[jcrbil]

^^^ From Mamma Murray's conversation with Josh at HTD, it was pretty clear that Josh is very good at putting the needs/desires of others ahead of his own. That's who he is. So that statement, "whatever you want" is perfectly in character.

[nannymargie]

ITA and it brings to mind Josh's words in one of their interviews (about courting her when she asks him if he is going to do so).  He says 'whatever you want.  I'm a pleaser baby".  I mean come on now a strong guy who is also ready to please his woman!

You would think he would see this as being whipped, but no, he seems to think it's the most manliest thing he can do. So cute

Josh is one of a kind.  You would think by looking at him he would be all about himself because he is so good looking and built and (HOT)  But he is the complete opposite.  He puts the people he loves first no matter what. He is a pleaser but he is not a push over.

Even Nick on the ATFR said that Josh has a huge heart. Nick was worried about Josh taking Andi for granted. That will never happen because Andi is the love of his life that he has been looking for for a long time.

[sbolduc]

^^ in regards to the above Nick said on the ATFR Josh has a big heart and knew he wouldn't take Andi for granted. He didn't say he was worried Josh would take her for granted.

I agree Josh has a huge heart and I don't think he would take Andi or anyone for that matter for granted.

[nannymargie]

^^ in regards to the above Nick said on the ATFR Josh has a big heart and knew he wouldn't take Andi for granted. He didn't say he was worried Josh would take her for granted.

I agree Josh has a huge heart and I don't think he would take Andi or anyone for that matter for granted.

No Nick did not say he was worried about Josh taking Andi for granted. Right before Nick said that he got very emotional so IMO he thought about it.

[Lucas15]

Lucas, I think you are touching on an extremely important (and in my mind egregious) point.  I think Andi's own insecurities fed right into the producers' machinations and made her even more susceptible and vulnerable to her own organic second (and third) guessing vis-a'-vis her decision making.  Additionally, given all of the push back JP received on all fronts for not "being open to the process" I think Andi was even more propelled and compelled to stay in line and do her assigned job which entailed keeping all options open until the very end.  Fortunately, Josh seems to really understand this as evidenced by his remarks in one of the recent radio interviews in which he stated awareness that Andi feared that he was going to leave and,thus, felt the need to keep all options open.

I know this has been discussed a myriad of times but your comments about the manipulations by the producers reinforces for me once again what puzzles me most about this show.  Many of the cast members post-show have alluded to these manipulations (for instance, Andi in her radio interview on Monday denied that anything was scripted but admitted that during the ITM's producers ask leading questions to sway the direction of the responses) and yet remain very close to these same producers.  I get the whole Stockholm syndrome phenomenon but it's still mind-blowing to me.  

It's egregious to me as well.

I think the leads with the "best" work ethic take the direction to heart and really try to put on a good show for the producers who hired them. Ashley blogged (during her season) that she didn't think she was a very good bachelorette because she couldn't act. Given that - how perfect was Bentley as the "foil" on her season - she could chat with CH and create the illusion that she was in love with someone (other than JP) and not even have to see him? Sean seems to have also taken the role seriously and did a pretty good job at it. Andi took it seriously IMHO as well.

The ongoing friendships with the same producers who messed with their heads during filming is as much a mystery to me as it is to you; I really don't get it. But I will say that those friendships seem to be strongest when the manipulations were more "harmless fun" (assuming you can manage to see anything about this whole process as harmless). Sean was never made to look bad and really neither was Catherine but JPG didn't get the hang of the whole thing, was never friends with anyone and when the show and JPG washed their hands of each other at the end they took off several layers of skin. Jason is really standoffish when it comes to the show but then again what happened on his season would leave a bitter aftertaste in anyone's mouth. It's too early to tell but I suspect Andi and Josh may not hold any grudge for very long; we'll have to see.

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