Re: Andi Dorfman & Josh Murray - Media Thread - Fan Forum - Discussion Thread #4

[Jolena]

When Andi started talking for the FR at first I was thinking, Andi, where are you going with this but after watching it more than once (can't tell you how many times, he he) I have changed my opinion.

I think that Josh was rather long winded because he started off from the beginning telling about wanting to find that special girl.  Then he went on to when he first met Andi and kind of continued in chronological order.

Since rewatching it I feel that Andi was doing the same.  She started by saying lots of ups and downs, how when she first met Josh she was scared and went into how he said the next girl he tells he loves he will marry.  She said that really meant a lot to her.  And then she said after all I went through the truth is what I have felt all along and feel now is love.

So I really don't know why Josh got so worried looking at the end.  

TPTB may have asked her to draw it out a little bit to make everyone guessing.

In an interview I have heard Andi say that toward the end Josh started pulling his hand away and she thought, this must sound terrible and went right into telling him she loved him.

Josh has said in an interview that when Andi finished being "coy" she finally told him she loved him and that's all he wanted to hear.

So I guess my feeling is that they both gave long winded speeches.

I suspect that you are right on target although my guess is that they did more than just "ask" Andi to draw it out.  

When Josh said, " the next girl I say ILY to will be my wife, I agree she was a nervous wreck., and her mind I think she was thinking , NO WAY is he going to say ILY to me in this short period of time.That's why it hit her HARD. Then she tells Chris H at that Rose ceremony ( I think it was the 7th RC) , that Nick was becoming a believer in all of this, he said he was falling in love with her ect.. but with Josh , she said " she never wanted anything or worked so hard for anything in her life and she didn't think she could see Josh down on one knee at the end of all this, and that was very scary to her". What she said at the FRC didn't make sense to me at first but once you rewatch it ( a million times it did make sense.   

[Lucas15]

but with Josh , she said " she never wanted anything or worked so hard for anything in her life and she didn't think she could see Josh down on one knee at the end of all this, and that was very scary to her".  What she said at the FRC didn't make sense to me at first but once you rewatch it ( a million times it did make sense.   

Here's a few puzzle pieces that support what you posted.

There was this interview with CH (and remember CH is more than "just" the host - he's a producer as is as integral to the manipulation of the cast as any other producer):

Interviewer: I spent some time with Andi and Josh today and they're ...
Chris Harrison: All over each other!
Interviewer: Yes! Has it been like that since they got engaged?
Harrison: Honestly it's been like that since the middle of the show. The first time I really noticed it was Italy. From then on I remember them being inseparable and him being her No. 1.
Interviewer: So do you think she knew all along?
Harrison: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.

Translation - they worked hard to keep Andi in the game by keeping her scared that Josh might leave before the end. I think the most plausible argument they made to her was to remind her how Brooks left early on Des' season. They kept Josh off balance by dropping little hints and suggesting reasons for him to question how Andi really felt about him so that he wouldn't tell her he was in love with her - once Josh would have told her that they couldn't keep Andi's head in the game and they still had the rest of the season to film. They got Nick and other guys to tell Andi they were falling in love with her so Andi saw a real contrast, with Josh as the odd man out - he was the only one who wasn't telling her he was in love with her which made her really doubt that he was.

When Josh finally told Andi he was in love with her and wanted to marry her (I believe this was on their FD) she was surprised and said she never thought she'd ever hear him say that. When you have some understanding of the "behind the scenes manipulation" so very many of the things that were said and that happened this season make sense.

[luvlady345]

but with Josh , she said " she never wanted anything or worked so hard for anything in her life and she didn't think she could see Josh down on one knee at the end of all this, and that was very scary to her".  What she said at the FRC didn't make sense to me at first but once you rewatch it ( a million times it did make sense.   

Here's a few puzzle pieces that support what you posted.

There was this interview with CH (and remember CH is more than "just" the host - he's a producer as is as integral to the manipulation of the cast as any other producer):

Interviewer: I spent some time with Andi and Josh today and they're ...
Chris Harrison: All over each other!
Interviewer: Yes! Has it been like that since they got engaged?
Harrison: Honestly it's been like that since the middle of the show. The first time I really noticed it was Italy. From then on I remember them being inseparable and him being her No. 1.
Interviewer: So do you think she knew all along?
Harrison: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.

Translation - they worked hard to keep Andi in the game by keeping her scared that Josh might leave before the end. I think the most plausible argument they made to her was to remind her how Brooks left early on Des' season. They kept Josh off balance by dropping little hints and suggesting reasons for him to question how Andi really felt about him so that he wouldn't tell her he was in love with her - once Josh would have told her that they couldn't keep Andi's head in the game and they still had the rest of the season to film. They got Nick and other guys to tell Andi they were falling in love with her so Andi saw a real contrast, with Josh as the odd man out - he was the only one who wasn't telling her he was in love with her which made her really doubt that he was.

When Josh finally told Andi he was in love with her and wanted to marry her (I believe this was on their FD) she was surprised and said she never thought she'd ever hear him say that. When you have some understanding of the "behind the scenes manipulation" so very many of the things that were said and that happened this season make sense.

Wonderfully written, I agree 100%...

[nanbrooks]

but with Josh , she said " she never wanted anything or worked so hard for anything in her life and she didn't think she could see Josh down on one knee at the end of all this, and that was very scary to her".  What she said at the FRC didn't make sense to me at first but once you rewatch it ( a million times it did make sense.   

Here's a few puzzle pieces that support what you posted.

There was this interview with CH (and remember CH is more than "just" the host - he's a producer as is as integral to the manipulation of the cast as any other producer):

Interviewer: I spent some time with Andi and Josh today and they're ...
Chris Harrison: All over each other!
Interviewer: Yes! Has it been like that since they got engaged?
Harrison: Honestly it's been like that since the middle of the show. The first time I really noticed it was Italy. From then on I remember them being inseparable and him being her No. 1.
Interviewer: So do you think she knew all along?
Harrison: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.

Translation - they worked hard to keep Andi in the game by keeping her scared that Josh might leave before the end. I think the most plausible argument they made to her was to remind her how Brooks left early on Des' season. They kept Josh off balance by dropping little hints and suggesting reasons for him to question how Andi really felt about him so that he wouldn't tell her he was in love with her - once Josh would have told her that they couldn't keep Andi's head in the game and they still had the rest of the season to film. They got Nick and other guys to tell Andi they were falling in love with her so Andi saw a real contrast, with Josh as the odd man out - he was the only one who wasn't telling her he was in love with her which made her really doubt that he was.

When Josh finally told Andi he was in love with her and wanted to marry her (I believe this was on their FD) she was surprised and said she never thought she'd ever hear him say that. When you have some understanding of the "behind the scenes manipulation" so very many of the things that were said and that happened this season make sense.

These are some great points and I agree with the producers manipulating Andi to keep the process going (and rightfully so). Brooks really did seem to be Des's F1 because she got extremely upset when he bailed out. One thought though, Josh did tell Andi he was falling in love with her in Ghent and Nick was the one to hold off until the FSD to tell her. So I feel Andi did know how serious Josh was.

[pander3575]

I think Nick told Andi he was FIL with Andi on their date in Italy and Josh didn't say it until Ghent. Both Josh and Nick told Andi they are in love with her on their FD.

[timfan]

but with Josh , she said " she never wanted anything or worked so hard for anything in her life and she didn't think she could see Josh down on one knee at the end of all this, and that was very scary to her".  What she said at the FRC didn't make sense to me at first but once you rewatch it ( a million times it did make sense.   

Here's a few puzzle pieces that support what you posted.

There was this interview with CH (and remember CH is more than "just" the host - he's a producer as is as integral to the manipulation of the cast as any other producer):

Interviewer: I spent some time with Andi and Josh today and they're ...
Chris Harrison: All over each other!
Interviewer: Yes! Has it been like that since they got engaged?
Harrison: Honestly it's been like that since the middle of the show. The first time I really noticed it was Italy. From then on I remember them being inseparable and him being her No. 1.
Interviewer: So do you think she knew all along?
Harrison: She did a good job of keeping her mind open and going through this and that was the toughest thing. It's important and it works if you continue to let it. If you shut down and get tunnel vision, well, if that person doesn't turn out to be who you thought then the relationship is over and you've squandered a wonderful opportunity. So the toughest thing is to convince Andi you can look beyond Josh and it's OK. It doesn't mean you won't pick them, but put everything to the test. Not only does it keep your mind open to other things, but it continues to test what you have with Josh. It gives you a litmus test.

Translation - they worked hard to keep Andi in the game by keeping her scared that Josh might leave before the end. I think the most plausible argument they made to her was to remind her how Brooks left early on Des' season. They kept Josh off balance by dropping little hints and suggesting reasons for him to question how Andi really felt about him so that he wouldn't tell her he was in love with her - once Josh would have told her that they couldn't keep Andi's head in the game and they still had the rest of the season to film. They got Nick and other guys to tell Andi they were falling in love with her so Andi saw a real contrast, with Josh as the odd man out - he was the only one who wasn't telling her he was in love with her which made her really doubt that he was.

When Josh finally told Andi he was in love with her and wanted to marry her (I believe this was on their FD) she was surprised and said she never thought she'd ever hear him say that. When you have some understanding of the "behind the scenes manipulation" so very many of the things that were said and that happened this season make sense.

These are some great points and I agree with the producers manipulating Andi to keep the process going (and rightfully so). Brooks really did seem to be Des's F1 because she got extremely upset when he bailed out. One thought though, Josh did tell Andi he was falling in love with her in Ghent and Nick was the one to hold off until the FSD to tell her. So I feel Andi did know how serious Josh was.

Josh said in ghent I am falling in love with you but I still think andi needed to hear him say he was in love with her because you can say you are falling but what if you do not actually get to the point of being in love

[nanbrooks]

I think Nick told Andi he was FIL with Andi on their date in Italy and Josh didn't say it until Ghent.  Both Josh and Nick told Andi they are in love with her on their FD.

Hmmmm...remember the whole FSD with Nick and his big thing was he was mad at himself for not saying it on the beach that day to her? That night at dinner he got up and walked her over to the palm tree and nervously told her he was in love with her. That's the first time I remember Nick saying it.

[Alanna]

I think Nick told Andi he was FIL with Andi on their date in Italy and Josh didn't say it until Ghent.  Both Josh and Nick told Andi they are in love with her on their FD.

That's my recollection as well. I think to a certain extent Andi was genuinely kept off balance all on her lonesome. Obviously tptb manipulate everyone to make a good story but at the same time, they're still grow ups with their own agency, so I don't put everything on tptb.

IMO, she really didn't think she could get a man like Josh and that's what set the pattern for this season, which was of course helped along by tptb. It makes no sense to an outsider though because if not someone like Andi, who would be a better match for him? Just all the external stuff is just as much a perfect fit with her for him as we noted at the very beginning of filming for her when he was cast. She really kind of has it all for him- the family background, the Southernness of it all, the education, the looks. It's impossible to explain why she was feeling how she was feeling, other than the ex background. If her personality wasn't so, uhhh, challenging, she would be perfect, but she's perfect for Josh so that's all that matters!

[pander3575]

I think Nick told Andi he was FIL with Andi on their date in Italy and Josh didn't say it until Ghent.  Both Josh and Nick told Andi they are in love with her on their FD.

Hmmmm...remember the whole FSD with Nick and his big thing was he was mad at himself for not saying it on the beach that day to her? That night at dinner he got up and walked her over to the palm tree and nervously told her he was in love with her. That's the first time I remember Nick saying it.

Nick was upset with himself for not saying he WAS IN LOVE with her. He told her in Italy he was falling in love with her. Josh was the hold out until Ghent where she said in a VO that Josh was the only one that hadn't told her that. Josh also told her for the first time on their FD.

[timfan]

I always thought andi was insecure in some ways when watching her on the bachelor she seemed to have insecurities that she tried to hide behind a tough exterior.

[Lucas15]

I always thought Andi was insecure in some ways when watching her on the bachelor she seemed to have insecurities that she tried to hide behind a tough exterior.

One of my closest friends is a guy who I disliked intensely for years because I thought he was rude and abusive to people who worked for him. But then I started to hear stories of how he had stuck up for people who had really betrayed him and I began to see that behind that rude and tough exterior was a guy with a heart of gold who would bend over backwards to help you even if you didn't necessarily deserve it. Very often people with a sensitive / caring / insecure or vulnerable side will hide it behind a tough exterior shell. What is it they say? You can't judge a book by its cover.

[Lucas15]

Josh said in ghent I am falling in love with you but I still think andi needed to hear him say he was in love with her because you can say you are falling but what if you do not actually get to the point of being in love

Welcome to the confusing world of "show speak". I call it "show speak" because season after season we see the same words and play on words used by leads as well as contestants. Things that are just silly to be saying "in real life" get said time and time again with exactly the same kind of twisted implication you point out. Another example is "I could see myself falling in love with XXX" and XXX (and probably XXX's fans on forums and typical veiwers) think OMG - he/she is falling in love with XXX. But they didn't say that - they only said that they could see it not that they actually do see it.

I think that most leads are pretty savvy about show speak and tune out a lot of things that get said until there's real clarity; there's a world of difference between "I'm falling in love with you" and "I am in love with you".

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