Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

albean99 wrote:I definitely agree that Nick shouldn't have said it & I'm sure his parents aren't thrilled but Andi's parents should wonder where they went wrong with her total lack of empathy towards him. It does make me think she was the princess growing up, especially with her dad. She seemed much kinder to the guys that she wasn't really into. If she was totally faking it with Nick which is certainly didn't look like at the time, it's even worse because she could have brought one of the other guys who weren't as into her as he was. Why not Chris if he's going to end up TB anyway?    

Oh well, moving on. I'm okay if Chris is TB because I'm definitely not invested in him.

emusha wrote:

ironcat wrote:Regarding the seeming contradiction regarding what Andi said at the FRC about being in love with Josh from day 1 and what she said on JK about not making her decision until the day of the FRC, I guess I heard things differently than most did.  To me, what she said to Josh at the FRC was that the feelings he gave her from their first meeting and from every interaction since, she now, in retrospect, understands was love, although she didn't realize it at the time.  It's kind of a revisionist history if you will, but I really believe her when she said on JK that she didn't completely decide that she was going to choose Josh (and fully accept that she was madly in love with him) until that last day, which is probably why she felt it was "okay" to sleep with Nick, because IMO she still hadn't firmly made up her mind who she was choosing at that point.  I wonder if she had had the FD with Josh first, would she have done the same thing?    I think the producers may have scheduled Nick's date first for a reason.

I certainly get why Nick fans and people who don't like Andi are outraged at her, she certainly could have handled things better.  Someone weeks ago described Andi's methodology on this show as bloodless, and I really think this sums it up.  I agree that she has been pissed off at Nick for the past 2 months, and receiving that letter from him where he not only poured his heart out, but also questioned her judgment and courage, probably only made her feel colder towards him, especially as she seems to be over the moon smitten with Josh right now.  It's no wonder that she wouldn't give an inch about using the "L" word in relation to anything about Nick, even though it obviously would have been far more gracious of her if she had.  But she is stubborn, and even moreso when she's pissed.

Regarding being in love, everyone gets so hung up on saying the words, but as so many alumni from this show have said in the past, none of them are probably really "in love" until after they get to know each other once the show ends, and IMO that includes Andi, Josh and Nick.  That's not to say they don't develop intense feelings that resemble love; there's no doubt that Nick was hurting (the poor guy was shaking).  And anyway, until they develop a scientific test to determine/prove who is really in love and who isn't, it's all subjective and a matter of semantics IMO.

Just chiming in, before this story grows legs and runs away, that Andi and Josh did NOT meet before, only that they saw each other across the room at a club, but didn't speak.  Actually, I'm not sure Andi even acknowledged that she saw Josh, but he definitely saw her and knew that he wasn't allowed to approach her.  That's hardly a big deal in my book.

eta tnmom, just saw we posted the same thing at the same time.    

I'm probably one of the strongest advocates for staying fair to these human beings who have complicated experiences on this show and I am a big fan of the guys on this season....But the extent of Andi's actions, coldness and words which completely and strongly supports tptb's completely throwing nick under the bus only shows an andi who is sooooo egotistical, selfcentered, unempathetic and arrogant that she showed NOT One Ounce of kindness to someone whose heart she broke. It showed her true lack of maturity to not comprehend the intensity of heartbreak to ease it for a fellow human being who she constantly encouraged to have those feelings. Maybe my standards for human decency are wayyy too high for someone who watches this show but I find Andi's behavior something quite humiliating to herself and her family. And this is looking at it singularly and not rooting for any of the guys at any point. I felt similarly about how Andi dealt with Chris and her sulky tauntrum whining that she doesn't want to make up her mind and be the bad guy like she almost wants HIM to break up with himself     whatttt?? how selfish and immature is that?

The contradiction you mention I'm pretty sure actually came up during AFRC (others can correct me if i'm wrong)  and I don't remember the exact phrasing but she said something along the lines of completely denying that she ever felt any kind of love for nick or loved aspects of nick, she said she never told him she loved him and was careful not to. not only is this "not handled well" or is "revisionist history" it is completely callous, cold and aggressive after all the reassurances, after telling him not to worry, after sleeping with him, after telling him to trust her, after saying she'll turn him into a believer. If you are suggesting that she's trying to avenge the LETTER Nick wrote her which questions her judgement and courage because he was still in love with her and hoped she might be his "the one" as he'd dreamed...then you are truly suggesting that Andi has zero empathy for someone she completely led to the water then completely broke his heart then went around and accused of not picking up her signs cos she never SAID she loved him in a show where the format even doesn't allow the lead to say they love anyone. If andi is not able to see how nick might believe deeply that he was in love with her based on her behavior with him where she made no attempt to clarify her affirmative behaviors to him during their breakup....AND she rejected him in the accusatory "it isn't right...a life with you would have us over analyze every single thing" accusing him of a deficiency when she was breaking his heart...and then on top of that feeling slighted that he would question her judgement and courage for not picking him when he so obviously and clearly was saying "I could be making all this up" but staying true to his own feelings. If you're really trying to excuse her stubborness, bloodless and self-centered approach of denying any feelings she's ever had and zero effort to empathizing with him while even attempting to congratulate herself for making him fall in love "you must be glad you were able to get there!!" "it must be hard to not have it reciprocated" i.e. digging the knife deeper when he kept telling her he felt it was reciprocated by her....all this being true it is really only confirming more strongly that she is completely blind and completely self-absorbed with zero compassion, kindness and basic human decency towards him. When someone you encouraged to love you turns around and doubts your decision -- feeling colder towards him is completely self-absorbed and lacks any ounce of insight. If this truly is who Andi is...then she's even more MeAndi/diva/bratty and a spoiled little girl than we ever did imagine and it's a shame the beautiful man that is Josh is going to get caught in her trap.

Last thing to note -- chloep has had sources share right around the time of the FRC that andi and josh met several times before filming and they were even set up in a hotel room in cali prior to the start of filming...this is supported by the social media behavior of their families where the murrays and dorfmans were following each other and saying they are excited for their kids to meet when on the show Hy acted like he had no idea who Josh was and who his family was at the MTP. Everything else that chloep had shared regarding the storyline with a hesitant nick who falls hard all adds up.

albean99 wrote:I definitely agree that Nick shouldn't have said it & I'm sure his parents aren't thrilled but Andi's parents should wonder where they went wrong with her total lack of empathy towards him. It does make me think she was the princess growing up, especially with her dad. She seemed much kinder to the guys that she wasn't really into. If she was totally faking it with Nick which is certainly didn't look like at the time, it's even worse because she could have brought one of the other guys who weren't as into her as he was. Why not Chris if he's going to end up TB anyway?    

Oh well, moving on. I'm okay if Chris is TB because I'm definitely not invested in him.

Cecilia wrote:IMO - Nick wasn't going to go there until she was so cold to him, not giving their relationship any real validity.  I think he felt played, was hurt, and called her out.  I get it.

Alanna wrote:

Cecilia wrote:IMO - Nick wasn't going to go there until she was so cold to him, not giving their relationship any real validity.  I think he felt played, was hurt, and called her out.  I get it.

I actually get it too, but it was still way too ridiculous and horrible for me to stomach and root for him. Andi came out there in all her ADA glory and wasn't going to give him an inch so he went for the lowest blow he could possibly find to get some ounce of emotion out of her. Like Iron posted, neither of them are up for Person of the Year in my book either.

I get why Andi came out the way she did also. She wants him to stop bothering her and she's been all about Josh, Josh, and also, Josh, since the moment he arrived and everyone else, including Nick, were competing to push Josh out of the lead since the limos arrived. And once the show finished taping, I don't know if Nick was coerced by tptb or what, but he clearly hasn't been following along on sm because she's been screaming she's happy and in love with Josh and wants nothing to do with him. Nick was never going to get anywhere, he needed to move on instead of attempting to draw her into some sort of angsty, embarrassing conversation. Again, jmo.

ironcat wrote:Her cold treatment of Nick is not so shocking if she has spent the last 2 months getting more and more pissed off at him, which is what I suspect happened.  Whether she is at all justified in being pissed off at him I don't know, but it also explains her BFF Kelly's very biased tweets ridiculing Nick, and Andi's continued silence on them.  I really think there was a lot more going on post filming this season than in past seasons (much of it orchestrated by producers I suspect), and this definitely colored the participants' perceptions of who deserved what.  Had there been no plane video dis, no attempts to contact her, no note, no insinuation from Nick devaluing her choice of Josh, I think Andi might have been a bit more empathetic toward him.

It is interesting that for all of Andi's supposed coldness/diva-ness/bitchiness, she was, according to CH, one of the most sought after Bachelorettes as far as the men falling for her.  It seems like at least 4 really did.  What does that say about the type of woman that men are looking for?

Luvvy wrote:

Alanna wrote:

Cecilia wrote:IMO - Nick wasn't going to go there until she was so cold to him, not giving their relationship any real validity.  I think he felt played, was hurt, and called her out.  I get it.

I actually get it too, but it was still way too ridiculous and horrible for me to stomach and root for him. Andi came out there in all her ADA glory and wasn't going to give him an inch so he went for the lowest blow he could possibly find to get some ounce of emotion out of her. Like Iron posted, neither of them are up for Person of the Year in my book either.

I get why Andi came out the way she did also. She wants him to stop bothering her and she's been all about Josh, Josh, and also, Josh, since the moment he arrived and everyone else, including Nick, were competing to push Josh out of the lead since the limos arrived. And once the show finished taping, I don't know if Nick was coerced by tptb or what, but he clearly hasn't been following along on sm because she's been screaming she's happy and in love with Josh and wants nothing to do with him. Nick was never going to get anywhere, he needed to move on instead of attempting to draw her into some sort of angsty, embarrassing conversation. Again, jmo.

I do think tptb have a hand in it but I don't know if it's coercion or something more worrisome. Don't they offer counseling for the f2 after this? Maybe Nick was a case they really had to take seriously and try to help him psychologically. I don't know why but that's the impression I get. He's intense, borderline scary (jmo). And he's obviously heartbroken so maybe tptb had a heavier hand in this one than normal because Nick was showing emotional instability or something. Just a thought. I do sincerely hope he's okay now! This is just a show for us but not for some of them.

BachfanNY wrote:

ironcat wrote:Her cold treatment of Nick is not so shocking if she has spent the last 2 months getting more and more pissed off at him, which is what I suspect happened.  Whether she is at all justified in being pissed off at him I don't know, but it also explains her BFF Kelly's very biased tweets ridiculing Nick, and Andi's continued silence on them.  I really think there was a lot more going on post filming this season than in past seasons (much of it orchestrated by producers I suspect), and this definitely colored the participants' perceptions of who deserved what.  Had there been no plane video dis, no attempts to contact her, no note, no insinuation from Nick devaluing her choice of Josh, I think Andi might have been a bit more empathetic toward him.

It is interesting that for all of Andi's supposed coldness/diva-ness/bitchiness, she was, according to CH, one of the most sought after Bachelorettes as far as the men falling for her.  It seems like at least 4 really did.  What does that say about the type of woman that men are looking for?

I saw a very warm Andi with Chris at the MTA, she was singing his praises. But then again, Chris was so classy and respectful towards her.