Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

GrahamGal wrote:

stuckinsc wrote:

GrahamGal wrote:

I was leaving, but wanted to reply to your post to me.

Point taken.  You may be right and he has no choice.  I was unspoiled and just saw it the other day.  I won't go into my opinion of the video as I am sure it has been hashed out over and over on the spoiled side.  Season is over so it doesn't matter anyway.

See you maybe on the spoiled side next season and who knows we may see things the same then.  That's how it usually goes.

Please stick around, for me intelligent opposing opinions are always welcome.  It is great to be able to discuss something.  I admire those who can handle being unspoiled, I don't have the ability, I even read the last page of a book at the beginning.  

OK, I will slip on my big girl panties and continue to come here.  It's hard because I am a lover not a fighter.  

I must say this season was the HARDEST season for me to stay unspoiled, but it was so worth it for me in the end. I could see the love story from the very beginning without all the "noise".

Good.  

soccermom333 wrote:

Piper61 wrote:

whit90 wrote:


What media rounds is Nick making today ? So as soon as they get home they go to the mall one of the busiest places to go hmmmm.  

Andi is probably ready to dress her man!    I think the first thing they did when they got home last night was to take their baby Sabel for a nice evening walk.  Just normal every day kind of stuff, don't you think?

They are so madly in love and could not wait to be out with each other.  So happy for them.  They are the darlings of Atlanta, and I bet we will be seeing them a lot!!  

I am sure we will be seeing a lot of them that is normal for every couple that has been on this show. I have to disagree with you about be the darlings of Atlanta just got back from there and most people did not know who Andi and Josh were. The ratings were the lowest out of any ette season so the majority of people did not watch this show.

Cari wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

Tnmomof4 wrote:I think she appeared so "cold" because she didn't want to give him any hope that there was a chance that she'd change her mind.  He was so adamant that Josh was wrong for her.  Not to say that she  was right but I can certainly understand it.  I know I've been there.  You break up nicely but every overture of "nice" brings hope so you have to rebreak their heart.  Sometimes being cold is the nicest thing you can do to help someone have closure and move on.  Makes me think of the Dumb and Dumber line (I'm not equating Nick with them!) "So you're saying there's a chance?" in response to the girl saying "there's a 1 in a million chance I'd go out with you." (or something like that.

I think so also and I think in this particular case the more empathetic she would have been the less Nick would have understood. The only way you can get the message to sink in with someone like Nick is to be cold and firm and perhaps not so nice - that seems to me to have been the only way Nick would get the message.

Jeepers wrote:Regarding Andi's less than warm reception to Nick .....  She was probably pretty fed up with his behavior since filming ended...

His comments about things in the plane video
His attempt to see her when she was in Mexico .. With her F1
His attempt to see her again during the MTA weekend
His letter to her
His need to talk to her .. For closure .. At the AFTR
His comment to her during the AFTR

All while she is in a relationship .. That he well knew about

He never got the hint that she was done with him .. He pushed and pushed .. Like NO other F2 has ever done before .. To the point that I am sure she felt harassed by him

Cold!!??  I think she was actually pretty tolerant of him thru out this whole ordeal over the past couple of months .. I am Ware she had to face him at the AFTR .. Her behavior could have been a lot worse and unwelcoming

Put yourself in her place and think .. Honestly .. How you would feel and react to what she had to deal with

Jeepers your post articulates better than I could why I think Andi had no choice but to do pretty much what she did. Anything else would not have gotten the message through especially since refusing to meet with him or return his phone calls or even acknowledge getting and reading his letter didn't get the message through to Nick. Subtlety and nice didn't work.

I've been WishyWashy (WW, that's me!) on post-show Nick. One moment I creep out with his cocky declarations during the show. Then I empathize with him during the LCD because I felt IMHO the intellectual Nick so "connected" with Andi already knew he is not the one. My heart went out to him. Then TPTB shows us his attempts to "reach out" to Andi post-show (as  jeepers perfectly summarized) I say "numerous" attempts!   It is not just calling twice on the phone. Arie sought out Emily without the cameras. The very much blindsided Ben F who Ashley allegedly slept with at the FS sought his closure at AFTR as the usual style. For me, Nick's "numerous" attempts was clearly shown by TPTB, that Nick was hoping for a Mesnick! Nick despite watching himself edited as a villain still thought he had a chance to "change" Andi's mind? Yes, I'm blindsided with the connection we had DURING the show? YES, we made the sweetest love in the FS. But I dint know the connection you also had with Josh. I posted it in the unspoiled thread during the show. It is one of those moments that changed me from WW to a Jodi believer. I transcribed the convo of Nick from Episodes 6-7. And I said, Andi was getting secondhand info about what the boys were saying about Nick in the house. And Andi said in one of her ITMs, she finds it unattractive for a guy who have enemies easily. She finds someone attractive who GETS ALONG with others. I predicted that when Andi watches episode 7. Watched Nick cockily say that there is no one else in the house for Andi but him, watched Chris S say Nick talks about "strategy" all the time, watched Brian say he is 'fake". I ask y'all now, IF you are Andi (engaged with Josh) and here is Nick using middlemen to arrange a meetup while you are watching Nick (edited if you may!), would Andi honestly think Nick just wanted closure?! I mean seriously?! Nick who watched past shows know the F2 faces the Lead during AFTR. Nick could not wait to get his closure then? As in, he's like "No, I have to get closure now! I'll call Chris maybe he could get me private time with Andi. Josh is a great guy, surely he'll understand that I want closure" again, SERIOUSLY?! Nick was hoping for a Mesnick! Andi probably felt what he was trying to do! My heart went out to him at the AFTR. He seemed too broken that after denied numerous attempts. He still dint get it that the signals he's trying to send across Andi (and by extension Josh) is disrespectful and stalkerish.

I know most of you don't like Kelly but her tweet was telling. Again, put yourself in Andi's shoes, RT @kellytravisty: This is the last I will say... If an ex showed up at your door unannounced I highly doubt any of you would welcome him with open arms Because IF Nick wanted closure he could have waited in the AFTR, certainly Andi would have been nicer to Nick just like to Marcus and Chris S.    Unfortunately, Nick desiring a Mesnick (not just closure) creeped out Andi and disrespected her F1.  :Nod: 

I ask of you of this. Will you still be angry with "coldhearted Andi if Nick got a Mesnick? I perused some of the spoiled posts prior to FRC and some were hoping for a Mesnick   

IMHO, I respectfully say, I'm almost certain most would defend Nick and Andi to the heavens. That theirs was the Greatest Love Story if all. That Andi just followed her heart...

And we would be spending pages and pages of this topic of Nick's awesomeness in his ability to "change" Andi's mind because her heart after all was all Nick.

Or not.

 :hidingchair

Great post!!    :cutesmile!: 

whit90 wrote:

Piper61 wrote:Guess they should've waited until a couple of months down the road to finally be seen out and about doing the types of things (that they have not been able to do together for the past 2 1/2 months) that every person just takes for granted in their daily lives.  A trip to the mall on a hot summer day, and a quick bite at the Cheesecake Factory.  They didn't get the memo.  

We will just have to disagree on why they went to a crowded mall but yes they have every right to live a normal life.

Not sure it's all that crowded, but we can agree to disagree as you say.

You can have the Usual Level Of Sympathy that Nick was deceived by production in 1000 ways big and small over a period of weeks such that he could credibly be presented in footage as the FRONT-RUNNER -- him saying that all the time and acting that way causes the viewer to project WINNER vibe onto him, and colors how his time with the Lead is experienced when watching.  "Here is Andi's favorite" one thinks, as he says it, and the guys complain about it. Creates doubt about whether to trust what you're seeing between Andi and Josh or others.

I think Nick thought he was front-runner because he was PRODUCED to believe that and Andi  was herself PRODUCED to deliver the requisite amount of footage to back that up ... including because he was someone to whom she had a genuine attachment and attraction That said, if you watch her, not him stammering around about "going to marry" and "crazy about", she isn't really returning 100% in many of the key scenes we saw.  When she says "I had to go through all the steps" and Chris Harrison says the same, that is echoing the constant refrain of what handlers and producers tell them throughout.  "You need to build many relationships with as many as you can, being real in each moment, and going with the flow/having fun with each, so that you don't get to the end and be humiliated that your favorite got cold feet and you flopped as the Bachelorette to whom no man would propose."  Wow. That's a heavy threat.  So the Lead, especially this one, is hugely motivated out of self-preservation to have more than one romance happening in tandem. They have to air 2 hours of programming on the night of the finale, so she has no choice but to go through a bunch of scenes with #2 over the last days -- meeting of parents, some % of a LCD, etc. There are a lot of heavy conversations with the lead fighting for the right to dump #2 before completely humiliating and pointless Neil Lane, get dressed for FRC, or FRC footage gets shot. That deprives the producers of that Mesnick or Andy Baldwin footage, after dumping the #2 at the "altar" so to speak ... so you know they have to fight.

I look at it like this ... Andi's literal j-o-b for which she was paid whatever amount of moolah, and all the freebies and media spotlight, was to have at least 4 guys eager to introduce her to their families, 3 willing to spend the night, and 2 willing to propose.  That's a ton of pressure.  And you don't get there without help from producers.  They massively manipulate the cast, manipulate the lead, manipulate the footage, add soundtracks later to set various moods, and literally feed lines through leading questions during and after filming for ITMs.  

Anyway, back to where her head was at ... an Example of PRODUCTION over actual RELATIONSHIP, fairly late in the Game is Brussels: Her facial expressions are really skeptical out on the street that night (before the make out session against the tree).  She would know of course that the entire Night Walk on Eve of Josh's 1:1 is "PRODUCED" as Jason and Molly always put it -- a camera crew and producer agree with Nick he can go to front desk, get the floor key and room number (talk about PRODUCED!), film her at the door, follow them around the streets, and create  F1 type footage.  Like that absurd over-produced scene of Sean running through the streets of Europe bellowing for Emily ... it didn't make Emily return his feelings, but with a great smooch against the wall Sean feels Special, and Emily has given some footage to the producers that can be used to build a Sean fan base.  Many of her interactions with Nick were produced for romance, and designed to make him feel very special, like the inevitable winner.  I think he was genuinely in the dark about the seriousness of her relationship with Josh and the level to which he was claiming her as his future wife.

Separately, I wonder if they aren't testing the market this week to see if Nick can be a Lead.  I think they are worried about Chris as Lead ... probably having some trouble casting for girls who aren't freaked out by Iowa.  I have said it three or four times, but I will repeat.  I have to my embarrassment acquired a friggin' ph.D. in this show and the business-side of how it is cast and produced and promoted.  I smell money in the mix in Nick's behavior.  I just do.  And freely confess, intuition is only right 70% of the time. But I have gotten a Paid Talent vibe ever since I heard he showed up in Mexico (WHO WOULD DO THAT?!!!), wrote the letter that quotes from his own In the Moments for heaven's sakes, was filmed with Bella with Bennett G in town in Milwaukee, etc. THey needed drama to justify a LIVE EVENT, so they worked with the plan they had.

And, to me (bias on the table, as ever), this whole Nick Subplot was concoted mid-season as a means to cope with a very strong and mostly steady First Couple ... Andi fell apart in Venice on camera freaking out that Josh might not return her feelings. Something very real was going on there, that was very settled IMO by the time Andi sat in that park with Nick in Brussels.

GrahamGal wrote:

whit90 wrote:

Piper61 wrote:Guess they should've waited until a couple of months down the road to finally be seen out and about doing the types of things (that they have not been able to do together for the past 2 1/2 months) that every person just takes for granted in their daily lives.  A trip to the mall on a hot summer day, and a quick bite at the Cheesecake Factory.  They didn't get the memo.  

We will just have to disagree on why they went to a crowded mall but yes they have every right to live a normal life.

Not sure it's all that crowded, but we can agree to disagree as you say.

This is true, GG.  They are walking down the mid corridor near Saks Fifth Avenue Neiman Marcus.  It's never too crowded there.  I call this the fashionista empty tomb.      Now, if they really want to draw a crowd, they need to hit the Apple store upstairs.  

Love this pic!

ETA:  I meant to say Neiman Marcus.  Saks is at Phipps, across the street.

GrahamGal wrote:

whit90 wrote:

Piper61 wrote:Guess they should've waited until a couple of months down the road to finally be seen out and about doing the types of things (that they have not been able to do together for the past 2 1/2 months) that every person just takes for granted in their daily lives.  A trip to the mall on a hot summer day, and a quick bite at the Cheesecake Factory.  They didn't get the memo.  

We will just have to disagree on why they went to a crowded mall but yes they have every right to live a normal life.

Not sure it's all that crowded, but we can agree to disagree as you say.

Lenox mall is big so that only shows a small percentage of it. I am sure they wanted to show others that they are a happy couple and are doing fine after the AFTR. Sorry I am not a Andi fan but like all the couples that go through this show I wish them luck in the real world. I just wish that JODI fans would just be happy for them and focus on them and stop bashing Nick.   

@jlccaz- Someone said on here that he did not go to Mexico, but that he attempted to call her and CH said she couldn't talk because she is in Mexico. Which is correct?

I don't have a hard time believing what you're saying, but does that mean that Andi slept with Nick only for strategy? cuz... ick, if so.

Not a Jodi fan at all and haven't seen any of their post show stuff out of a complete lack of interest, but love this pic actually. It's nice to see them being normal and of course they'll get noticed and get a pic snapped at the mall. But fan pics while they live their lives are great IMO. What is not is preplanned, staged papparzzi set ups aimed to get pics of them out there in the mags. I can't help but remember the paparazzi pics of Ali and Roberto moving and going to the Zoo I think, and the worst ever grocery trip with Emily in her 5 story pink high heels with Jef pushing a cart through the store. Those I hate. This is nice.

jlccaz wrote:You can have the Usual Level Of Sympathy that Nick was deceived by production in 1000 ways big and small over a period of weeks such that he could credibly be presented in footage as the FRONT-RUNNER -- him saying that all the time and acting that way causes the viewer to project WINNER vibe onto him, and colors how his time with the Lead is experienced when watching.  "Here is Andi's favorite" one thinks, as he says it, and the guys complain about it.  Creates doubt about whether to trust what you're seeing between Andi and Josh or others.

I think Nick thought he was front-runner because he was PRODUCED to believe that and Andi  was herself PRODUCED to deliver the requisite amount of footage to back that up ... including because he was someone to whom she had a genuine attachment and attraction That said, if you watch her, not him stammering around about "going to marry" and "crazy about", she isn't really returning 100% in many of the key scenes we saw.  When she says "I had to go through all the steps" and Chris Harrison says the same, that is echoing the constant refrain of what handlers and producers tell them throughout.  "You need to build many relationships with as many as you can, being real in each moment, and going with the flow/having fun with each, so that you don't get to the end and be humiliated that your favorite got cold feet and you flopped as the Bachelorette to whom no man would propose."  Wow. That's a heavy threat.  So the Lead, especially this one, is hugely motivated out of self-preservation to have more than one romance happening in tandem.  They have to air 2 hours of programming on the night of the finale, so she has no choice but to go through a bunch of scenes with #2 over the last days -- meeting of parents, some % of a LCD, etc.  There are a lot of heavy conversations with the lead fighting for the right to dump #2  before completely humiliating and pointless Neil Lane, get dressed for FRC, or FRC footage gets shot.  That deprives the producers of that Mesnick or Andy Baldwin footage, after dumping the #2 at the "altar" so to speak ... so you know they have to fight.

I look at it like this ... Andi's literal j-o-b for which she was paid whatever amount of moolah, and all the freebies and media spotlight, was to have at least 4 guys eager to introduce her to their families, 3 willing to spend the night, and 2 willing to propose.  That's a ton of pressure.  And you don't get there without help from producers.  They massively manipulate the cast, manipulate the lead, manipulate the footage, add soundtracks later to set various moods, and literally feed lines through leading questions during and after filming for ITMs.  

Anyway, back to where her head was at ... an Example of PRODUCTION over actual RELATIONSHIP, fairly late in the Game is Brussels: Her facial expressions are really skeptical out on the street that night (before the make out session against the tree).  She would know of course that the entire Night Walk on Eve of Josh's 1:1 is "PRODUCED" as Jason and Molly always put it -- a camera crew and producer agree with Nick he can go to front desk, get the floor key and room number (talk about PRODUCED!), film her at the door, follow them around the streets, and create  F1 type footage.  Like that absurd over-produced scene of Sean running through the streets of Europe bellowing for Emily ... it didn't make Emily return his feelings, but with a great smooch against the wall Sean feels Special, and Emily has given some footage to the producers that can be used to build a Sean fan base.  Many of her interactions with Nick were produced for romance, and designed to make him feel very special, like the inevitable winner.  I think he was genuinely in the dark about the seriousness of her relationship with Josh and the level to which he was claiming her as his future wife.

Separately, I wonder if they aren't testing the market this week to see if Nick can be a Lead.  I think they are worried about Chris as Lead ... probably having some trouble casting for girls who aren't freaked out by Iowa.  I have said it three or four times, but I will repeat.  I have to my embarrassment acquired a friggin' ph.D. in this show and the business-side of how it is cast and produced and promoted.  I smell money in the mix in Nick's behavior.  I just do.  And freely confess, intuition is only right 70% of the time.  But I have gotten a Paid Talent vibe ever since I heard he showed up in Mexico (WHO WOULD DO THAT?!!!), wrote the letter that quotes from his own In the Moments for heaven's sakes, was filmed with Bella with Bennett G in town in Milwaukee, etc.  THey needed drama to justify a LIVE EVENT, so they worked with the plan they had.

And, to me (bias on the table, as ever), this whole Nick Subplot was concoted mid-season as a means to cope with a very strong and mostly steady First Couple ... Andi fell apart in Venice on camera freaking out that Josh might not return her feelings.  Something very real was going on there, that was very settled IMO by the time Andi sat in that park with Nick in Brussels.

Wow, you are good.    Very thought out and I agree, andi was done, game over when she thought Josh would leave or not reciprocate her feelings. Saw it in previews but never shown on air.

grace8136 wrote:@jlccaz- Someone said on here that he did not go to Mexico, but that he attempted to call her and CH said she couldn't talk because she is in Mexico. Which is correct?

I don't have a hard time believing what you're saying, but does that mean that Andi slept with Nick only for strategy? cuz... ick, if so.

I actually don't think Andi knew Josh was in it for the long haul until the FS. She told him at dinner, after he professed his love, "It is good to hear you say that.... I never thought you would say those things." This date was after Nick's date. Of course she had real feelings for Nick, just not as strong as the ones for Josh.

Most of us are extremely happy to be following Andi and Josh and expessing our joy for their happiness. Without the visuals that is hard to do.  They appear genuinely happy to be out from secrecy, the bachelor bubble and wigs and hats.  Some criticize that and are of the mind it is disingenuous and for publicity. We can certainly agree to disagree.  Stating opinions of Nick's actions is not bashing and can also be agreed upon to disagree.

Jodi fans hope they continue to be very public.  They are certainly the darlings of many and that extends outside the borders of GA and the USA. It would be the same with Nick, just a different audience. They would assuredly have been in public, too, as soon as logistics allowed. Andi and Josh have been together most every single day since the FRC.