Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

mercieme wrote:

jlccaz wrote:

Beagle wrote:I have been reading this entire season how once Josh told Andi he was falling in love with her in Belgium, she was a goner, that's all she needed, game over, everyone can go home.

So if she was head over heels with Josh by then, isn't it dishonest and disrespectful to both Nick, who openly told Andi what sleeping together meant to their relationship, he was in love and to him it wasn't just casual sex to scratch an itch, and to Josh who she was planning to get engage to in a matter of days?

As I see it, Nick gave his heart to this woman, she used him for casual sex, disregarded his feelings completely, and disregarded what her future fiancé might think or how hurt he would be, just because it felt good to go all the way with F2 guy that night.

She made a mistake, fine, at least own up to it.

I have settled on the very articulate statements she made in (today's) People mag, an interview she gave BEFORE the ridiculous encounteer with Nick Monday night on live tv:

When did each of you know you had found the ONE.

JOSH: Afeter hometown dates, I knew she was going to be my wife.  When we were talking like best friends in the fantasdy suitre, I knew it was over.

ANDI: It took me a little longeer.  It was really important for me to take every single step, but looking back, those feelings were definitely there.  

You also took heat from Nick, who was in the final two.  He accused you of letting things go too far with him.

ANDI: I wasn't going to let him pick out a ring.  I neveer said I love you which I think would have been careless and reckless.  It wasn't anything that he did.  My connection was just so strrong with Josh that I couldn't have that same relationship with Nick.

You said she gave this interview before the AFTR aired, is that correct? Because the bolded question about taking things too far was not shown until Monday night which would be after the People photo shoot. Except we are saying here that somehow the interviewer was allowed to see the episode before it aired, then that would make sense.

Everything I typed is verbatim from the People interview in the hard copy mag I bought at the airport this morning.  She did the inteerview Sat or Sun.  Nick says in the break up scene we saw as part of the first two hours that she took it too far.  It's in quotes in the article.  He says that phrase that night in the Dominican.  "too far"  -- it was implied it meant sex at the time.  On the live ATFR, he made it explicit that he thinks she's a bitch for minimizing their relationship two months into her engagement to Josh given that they had sex in the FS.

Andi is super-consistent (and the production leaks say the same thing) -->  she didn't have peace of mind about what to do until after she spent the night sitting on the kitchen counteer drinking red wine and talking to Josh -- the best friend relationship feeling cemented it for her.  

And yes, two nights earlier, she's in the sack with Nick.  That just is what it was.  And oveer in Happy Couple Land, long ago they 100% made their peace with it, seeing each other every single day that she wasn't obligated to the show in some other city.

I would imagine the interviewer would watch the finale to prep for meeting the couple since the cat was obviously out of the bag for them.

Regarding not meeting with Nick, Andi said in an interview that she hoped by watching the show he'd understand how strong her connection was with Josh and if he still needed more they'd speak at ATFR. Why should she go behind producers' backs, possibly get spotted and then have to deal with show and media backlash? What if Josh didn't want her to? She was able to sneak with Josh because they were five minutes away. Much more difficult with Nick

ironcat wrote:What exactly would have provided closure for Nick?  Andi told him that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  He wanted to hear that she loved him and she didn't.  

I don't remember Andi ever telling Nick that her feelings for Josh were stronger. But then again I'm old and my memory isn't that sharp anymore.

I don't know what goes on in Nick's mind, so I can only guess. Perhaps unlike some people, Nick has an old fashion concept that sleeping together means more than a handshake; that it's a serious commitment to another person when you do so. It's possible he didn't want to hear that she loved him but rather to hear why she didn't love him. Initially he was a skeptic and by the end he was enamored with her and blindly believed in a reciprocated deep relationship. From the get go, she had stroked his ego, flirted with him and eventually bedded him. It was quite apparent to me that when cold, stone faced Andi came on stage, he would have to pry the answer out of her. She had her prize in Josh and she wasn't travelling down a road where she would willingly jeopardize her new relationship by having to explain her feelings for his rival. Nick was right by blurting out what he did, otherwise she would never have given him the answers he needed for closure. Hopefully Josh meant what he said about loving Andi unconditionally (good luck and God bless him 'cause he's really going to need it) and they can all be happy and put this show behind them.

ironcat wrote:

Beagle wrote:

ironcat wrote:

It was some Josh fans who said Andi was a goner, Andi never said that herself.  And do we know that Nick told Andi specifically that he didn't believe in having sex with a woman who wasn't in love with him?

Most of the posts I read were about how she only had eyes for Josh and no one else. Now, Im suppose to believe that truthfully Andi made her the decision the morning of the FRC. Of course Andi is not going to say anything different now because it would make her look bad in the media that she slept with F2 guy just because she was in the moment, and 2 days later did it with Josh. Nick alluded in the ATFR that he specifically told her what that meant to him at that time. She was giving him signs constantly, he believed her.

You can believe what you wish, but just because all the fans think something, doesn't make it so. Andi's story is that she made her decision on the last day, and until then, she was free to do what she pleased with either guy, who knew there were no guarantees. If Andi is good with that explanation and Josh is good with that explanation, I don't think anyone else's opinion matters to them.

kellkell wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:You know, watching the interaction between Nick and Andi from the ATFR back, I don't understand how people can say Andi was harsh to him. She was quiet and stern when he couldn't process his words or form his thoughts, but when Chris Harrison asked her if she was ever in love with Nick, I thought she gave an excellent answer and opened up.

While she said she was not ever in love with him and that she was careful not to say that to him, she went on to say that she had a great relationship with Nick. If she were do to it all over again she stated she absolutely knew she would still have that great relationship with Nick. There was nothing wrong with their relationship and then she says as difficult and as harsh as it is to say, at the end of the day, how do you compete with a greater relationship or a greater love? She even goes on to say that she probably made a mistake and she should have just told him that months ago (I'm guessing the first time he tried to contact her or when she broke up with him). I love how she just simply said at the end of the day, that's all it comes down to. One relationship was greater than the other and she reiterates on more than one occasion that there was nothing Nick did wrong and there was nothing wrong with their relationship.

In my opinion and for me, it's as simple as Nick didn't like what he heard. He was expecting her to say something else, although for an engaged woman apparently in love, she gave the perfect answer, and he said some things that he shouldn't have. But like someone stated a few posts above me, people make mistakes. It's funny how Andi essentially admitted to one during her speech to Nick, but I guess that went a bit unnoticed.

I'm not an Andi fan, but you absolutely nailed it. She wasn't disrespectful towards Nick during ATFR. She admitted to him that they had a great connection, and as he should already understand due to the fact that it was a show where she must choose only one, it just so happens she had a greater connection with someone else. Period. End of story.

Now maybe Andi should have said all of this to him much sooner rather than later, but who's to say (due to editing) that she didn't explain this to Nick when she first broke it off with him months ago? Which could be a reason why she's been avoiding him all of this time, like many in her situation who have moved on from an ex. There is nothing new under the sun. Unfortunately, in the real world people sleep with people they don't love. In the real world, people have even avoided an ex at all costs because they've already had the closure that they needed. It's time for Nick to move on. But now via an US Weekly interview, he's open to rekindling a friendship with Josh again? Wow, maybe he deserves the stalker label after all.

In the real world they have names for people like that. In the real world they talk about people like that so people are talking about her.

Yes she can't choose but one so don't have sex with anyone until you make your decision.

The producers was behind this whole thing starting at the MTA, why CH told Josh lied on the lie detector test, they're really trying to help them make it. So its not Nick stalking but tptb drama antics.

isittrue wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:Looking back on the season, I feel that Andi used this group of guys as her own little Bachelorette party.  There were many, many clues that Andi was focused on the physical looks of her guys, was soaking up their adoration to feed her own ego, and was able to rationalize her actions by focusing on the fact that they were all there because she wanted them there and she was the center of that universe.  She said as much to Josh on the LD date, to Eric and the other guys that GD, and when drunk Craig got out of hand.  They were there to focus fully on her.

When she used the response to the eliminated men that she wished JPG had eliminated her as soon as he knew she wasn't the one, she contradicted herself.  Then why did she not do the same?  Simple, because she had a show to produce.  She was so angry with JPG after their FS.  I still do not understand why.  Not taking into account anything he did or said to other women or post show, what did JPG do to Andi that was so wrong?  If we are to assume that they did not sleep together, then his sin was in wasting one day of her time.  If she did not enjoy his company, she was free to not accept his rose if he offered her one at the next rose ceremony.  If she did have sex with JPG and then had buyers remorse, who is to blame there, and most imporantly, isn't it the same thing she did to Nick.  It was like a twisted way of paying it forward on this show.  She was used so she felt justified in using Nick?

Everytime we discuss sex it it a tricky thing because of differences in opinion.  Mature minds can admit that different people think differently about sex.  But, if you are going to live by a certain set of morals, then you should be able to defend those morals.  In otherwords, if Andi was a believer in friends with benefits, then she shouls have been able to articulate why she believes in it.  The problem is that when you partake in an activity with 2 participants, they both have to be on the same page.  If they are, no misunderstandings.  If they aren't, confusion and hurt.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.  But it does take the ability to empathize and think of others needs before your own.  After watching this season, I am fairly certain that Andi is not capable of that.

I see her relationship with Josh as lust.  I don't believe she will have the ability to make it last longterm.  She might get married to Josh, but I bet it will not be an easy road for Josh.  Some guys are willing to put up with a lot of crap in order to keep a woman.  Maybe Josh is one if those who is so blinded by the idea of love that he will be able to stick it out.  I just don't think she is going to make it easy.  

I didn't like Andi on JPG.  Felt she tried her hardest to shame him on the show and afterwards.  She is best friends with that horribly insensitive Kelly.  She is a self proclaimed diva and brat.  I did give her the benefit of the doubt this season, even said she was doing a decent job as the lead.  I now recind that compliment.  My opinion of her remains that I would never be friends with someone like her in real life.   think she has a lot of maturing left to do, but if the people around her continue to protect her and shield her from her own consequences she will never grow as a person.  Obviously a situation like ATFR rallies her troops around her, and that is to be expected. But going forward I hope that those closest to her sit down and have a heart to heart with her about her actions and that they stand up to her self righteousness. Jmo

Good post--or to me it is!   
This is how I see ME and I. I don't think in all the history of the 'Ette I have disliked an 'Ette more. At least I have been consistent and felt this way since day 1 and I didn't even see her on JPG's season.

She has surpassed even MeAnna in my dislike.

   and ditto. I usually love the Bachelorettes, flaws, fits, tunnel vision and all. This year not at all. Glad to move on to a new fun show next week to wipe the blah, yucky feeling of this one away.

pbmax wrote:

ironcat wrote:

Beagle wrote:


Most of the posts I read were about how she only had eyes for Josh and no one else. Now, Im suppose to believe that truthfully Andi made her the decision the morning of the FRC. Of course Andi is not going to say anything different now because it would make her look bad in the media that she slept with F2 guy just because she was in the moment, and 2 days later did it with Josh. Nick alluded in the ATFR that he specifically told her what that meant to him at that time. She was giving him signs constantly, he believed her.

You can believe what you wish, but just because all the fans think something, doesn't make it so.  Andi's story is that she made her decision on the last day, and until then, she was free to do what she pleased with either guy, who knew there were no guarantees.  If Andi is good with that explanation and Josh is good with that explanation, I don't think anyone else's opinion matters to them.

kellkell wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:You know, watching the interaction between Nick and Andi from the ATFR back, I don't understand how people can say Andi was harsh to him. She was quiet and stern when he couldn't process his words or form his thoughts, but when Chris Harrison asked her if she was ever in love with Nick, I thought she gave an excellent answer and opened up.

While she said she was not ever in love with him and that she was careful not to say that to him, she went on to say that she had a great relationship with Nick. If she were do to it all over again she stated she absolutely knew she would still have that great relationship with Nick. There was nothing wrong with their relationship and then she says as difficult and as harsh as it is to say, at the end of the day, how do you compete with a greater relationship or a greater love? She even goes on to say that she probably made a mistake and she should have just told him that months ago (I'm guessing the first time he tried to contact her or when she broke up with him). I love how she just simply said at the end of the day, that's all it comes down to. One relationship was greater than the other and she reiterates on more than one occasion that there was nothing Nick did wrong and there was nothing wrong with their relationship.

In my opinion and for me, it's as simple as Nick didn't like what he heard. He was expecting her to say something else, although for an engaged woman apparently in love, she gave the perfect answer, and he said some things that he shouldn't have. But like someone stated a few posts above me, people make mistakes. It's funny how Andi essentially admitted to one during her speech to Nick, but I guess that went a bit unnoticed.

I'm not an Andi fan, but you absolutely nailed it.  She wasn't disrespectful towards Nick during ATFR.  She admitted to him that they had a great connection, and as he should already understand due to the fact that it was a show where she must choose only one, it just so happens she had a greater connection with someone else.  Period.  End of story.  

Now maybe Andi should have said all of this to him much sooner rather than later, but who's to say (due to editing) that she didn't explain this to Nick when she first broke it off with him months ago?  Which could be a reason why she's been avoiding him all of this time, like many in her situation who have moved on from an ex.  There is nothing new under the sun.  Unfortunately, in the real world people sleep with people they don't love.  In the real world, people have even avoided an ex at all costs because they've already had the closure that they needed.  It's time for Nick to move on.  But now via an US Weekly interview, he's open to rekindling a friendship with Josh again?  Wow, maybe he deserves the stalker label after all.

In the real world they have names for people like that. In the real world they talk about people like that so people are talking about her.

Yes she can't choose but one so don't have sex with anyone until you make your decision.

The producers was behind this whole thing starting at the MTA, why CH told Josh lied on the lie detector test, they're really trying to help them make it. So its not Nick stalking but tptb drama antics.

The fact that in 2014 they "have names for people like that" who happen to be women, but the same is not said of the man in your avatar who treated his sexual encounters far more cavalierly is incredibly sad to me.

richmondrose wrote:

ironcat wrote:What exactly would have provided closure for Nick?  Andi told him that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  He wanted to hear that she loved him and she didn't.  

I don't remember Andi ever telling Nick that her feelings for Josh were stronger. But then again I'm old and my memory isn't that sharp anymore.

I don't know what goes on in Nick's mind, so I can only guess. Perhaps unlike some people, Nick has an old fashion concept that sleeping together means more than a handshake; that it's a serious commitment to another person when you do so. It's possible he didn't want to hear that she loved him but rather to hear why she didn't love him. Initially he was a skeptic and by the end he was enamored with her and blindly believed in a reciprocated deep relationship. From the get go, she had stroked his ego, flirted with him and eventually bedded him. It was quite apparent to me that when cold, stone faced Andi came on stage, he would have to pry the answer out of her. She had her prize in Josh and she wasn't travelling down a road where she would willingly  jeopardize her new relationship by having  to explain her feelings for his rival. Nick was right by blurting out what he did, otherwise she would never have given him the answers he needed for closure. Hopefully Josh meant what he said about  loving  Andi unconditionally (good luck and God bless him 'cause he's really going to need it) and they can all be happy  and put this show behind them.

I so agree with your post.  On the finale, Andi never told Nick that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  She said something about not feeling right that morning and something about her and Nick analyzing everything.  Had Andi said when she let him go that she had strong feelings for him, but woke up that morning and realized that her feelings for Josh were much stronger, that would have given him some closure.  If he still continued to try to talk to her after that, then she would have a case for feeling offended that he was still trying to contact her/trying to talk to her.  Even when Andi first came out at ATFR, she sat there very stone faced and very cold.  She had to know that since he reached out multiple times to try to talk to her that he still did not have any closure.  It was not until he asked her about the FS that she did admit having feelings for him, but that her feelings for Josh were much stronger.  I saw an interview w/Nick where he said that Andi's demeanor at ATFR gave him the additional closure that he needed. Word!

IMO, whether it is a female lead or a male lead, I think they owe some sort of explanation when letting the contestants go, especially when it gets down to the final few.  If Andi had not been good about articulating why she let some of the earlier guys go in her season, I would have maybe given her a pass for how she treated Nick at ATFR, but she gave more of an explanation to those she let go earlier in the process than she did to Nick, and some of those guys she didn't even have a 1 on 1 with or even kissed!  Nick introduced her to his family, met her family, went on 2 1 on 1 dates with her, a FS date, a LCD and was intimate with her in the FS, and yet he got nothing.  Andi was angry at JP and basically giving her nothing when she was leaving at F3, and yet she turned around and did the same thing to Nick!

kdubs_ca wrote:

Kashathediva wrote:

pbmax wrote:

Lol! now Josh has to worry when he's not around and she gets to itching.

If Josh fs date was first she still would have slept with Nick.

Uh yeah, I agree. Nothing wrong with that if you are itchy, just admit you are prone to rashes and carry come benadryl.

She does have that family size bottle of Off. But I don't think you're supposed to spray it where she's itching.

No she'll use the pool guy or maybe the cable guy to relieve that itch.

Sable wrote:

richmondrose wrote:

ironcat wrote:What exactly would have provided closure for Nick?  Andi told him that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  He wanted to hear that she loved him and she didn't.  

I don't remember Andi ever telling Nick that her feelings for Josh were stronger. But then again I'm old and my memory isn't that sharp anymore.

I don't know what goes on in Nick's mind, so I can only guess. Perhaps unlike some people, Nick has an old fashion concept that sleeping together means more than a handshake; that it's a serious commitment to another person when you do so. It's possible he didn't want to hear that she loved him but rather to hear why she didn't love him. Initially he was a skeptic and by the end he was enamored with her and blindly believed in a reciprocated deep relationship. From the get go, she had stroked his ego, flirted with him and eventually bedded him. It was quite apparent to me that when cold, stone faced Andi came on stage, he would have to pry the answer out of her. She had her prize in Josh and she wasn't travelling down a road where she would willingly  jeopardize her new relationship by having  to explain her feelings for his rival. Nick was right by blurting out what he did, otherwise she would never have given him the answers he needed for closure. Hopefully Josh meant what he said about  loving  Andi unconditionally (good luck and God bless him 'cause he's really going to need it) and they can all be happy  and put this show behind them.

I so agree with your post.  On the finale, Andi never told Nick that her feelings for Josh were stronger.  She said something about not feeling right that morning and something about her and Nick analyzing everything.  Had Andi said when she let him go that she had strong feelings for him, but woke up that morning and realized that her feelings for Josh were much stronger, that would have given him some closure.  If he still continued to try to talk to her after that, then she would have a case for feeling offended that he was still trying to contact her/trying to talk to her.  Even when Andi first came out at ATFR, she sat there very stone faced and very cold.  She had to know that since he reached out multiple times to try to talk to her that he still did not have any closure.  It was not until he asked her about the FS that she did admit having feelings for him, but that her feelings for Josh were much stronger.  I saw an interview w/Nick where he said that Andi's demeanor at ATFR gave him the additional closure that he needed.  Word!

IMO, whether it is a female lead or a male lead, I think they owe some sort of explanation when letting the contestants go, especially when it gets down to the final few.  If Andi had not been good about articulating why she let some of the earlier guys go in her season, I would have maybe given her a pass for how she treated Nick at ATFR, but she gave more of an explanation to those she let go earlier in the process than she did to Nick, and some of those guys she didn't even have a 1 on 1 with or even kissed!  Nick introduced her to his family, met her family, went on 2 1 on 1 dates with her, a FS date, a LCD and was intimate with her in the FS, and yet he got nothing.  Andi was angry at JP and basically giving her nothing when she was leaving at F3, and yet she turned around and did the same thing to Nick!

ITA, plus Nick also introduced Andi to his close circle of friends.

mercieme wrote:You said she gave this interview before the AFTR aired, is that correct? Because the bolded question about taking things too far was not shown until Monday night which would be after the People photo shoot. Except we are saying here that somehow the interviewer was allowed to see the episode before it aired, then that would make sense.

People Magazine has worked closely with the show for years and always does a picture spread and interview; they write the article before the finale airs but the interview questions to tie back to what most viewers JUST saw on the finale. So I would say that the interviewer who wrote the piece for People Magazine most definitely had been given an advance copy of the finale to review as prep for the article, and prepared their watching that copy.

My issue is the fact that Nick and all the viewers are upset at the fact that Andi didn't meet him in private when we all know that could never happen or if it did, they would have to be filmed which would mean the sex convo comes out either way.

jlccaz wrote:

When did each of you know you had found the ONE.

JOSH: Afeter hometown dates, I knew she was going to be my wife.  When we were talking like best friends in the fantasdy suitre, I knew it was over.

ANDI: It took me a little longer.  It was really important for me to take every single step, but looking back, those feelings were definitely there.  

You also took heat from Nick, who was in the final two.  He accused you of letting things go too far with him.

ANDI: I wasn't going to let him pick out a ring.  I never said I love you which I think would have been careless and reckless.  It wasn't anything that he did.  My connection was just so strong with Josh that I couldn't have that same relationship with Nick.

If she had said these things to Nick right off at the ATFR, instead of being so confrontational, he most likely would never have made the infamous revelation.  For a smart woman she was not being very smart.

Nick needed to know that at the time of the fantasy suite date she was still open to choosing him, and that was why things went as they did. I think that is all he really wanted to hear.