Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

ironcat wrote:I wasn't a fan of Andi's ranting against JPG, thought it was ridiculous and still think it was mostly instigated/encouraged by the producers as part of her Bachelorette audition.  But I also don't think it defined her as a person, anymore than I think Nick "kissing and telling" defines him as a person.  Neither one is a monster, neither one is a saint either.

I see Andi as a flawed individual who still has some growing and learning to do.  I don't see her as a horrible witch who will never sustain a loving relationship because of her flaws.  Whether she and Josh work out I don't know, but if they don't I suspect it won't be because she can be a diva and a brat.  He seems to like that about her, some men do.  Clearly, Nick would be too sensitive and intense to deal with her, and hopefully he realizes this now.

Beagle wrote:This is what Fleiss posted on Finale night. Now tell me that whole ATFR fiasco wasn't producer driven.

https://twitter.com/fleissmeister/status/493908428327120897

Ash2214 wrote:You know, watching the interaction between Nick and Andi from the ATFR back, I don't understand how people can say Andi was harsh to him. She was quiet and stern when he couldn't process his words or form his thoughts, but when Chris Harrison asked her if she was ever in love with Nick, I thought she gave an excellent answer and opened up.

While she said she was not ever in love with him and that she was careful not to say that to him, she went on to say that she had a great relationship with Nick. If she were do to it all over again she stated she absolutely knew she would still have that great relationship with Nick. There was nothing wrong with their relationship and then she says as difficult and as harsh as it is to say, at the end of the day, how do you compete with a greater relationship or a greater love? She even goes on to say that she probably made a mistake and she should have just told him that months ago (I'm guessing the first time he tried to contact her or when she broke up with him). I love how she just simply said at the end of the day, that's all it comes down to. One relationship was greater than the other and she reiterates on more than one occasion that there was nothing Nick did wrong and there was nothing wrong with their relationship.

In my opinion and for me, it's as simple as Nick didn't like what he heard. He was expecting her to say something else, although for an engaged woman apparently in love, she gave the perfect answer, and he said some things that he shouldn't have. But like someone stated a few posts above me, people make mistakes. It's funny how Andi essentially admitted to one during her speech to Nick, but I guess that went a bit unnoticed.

Kashathediva wrote:

MiaHawk wrote:Looking back on the season, I feel that Andi used this group of guys as her own little Bachelorette party.  There were many, many clues that Andi was focused on the physical looks of her guys, was soaking up their adoration to feed her own ego, and was able to rationalize her actions by focusing on the fact that they were all there because she wanted them there and she was the center of that universe.  She said as much to Josh on the LD date, to Eric and the other guys that GD, and when drunk Craig got out of hand.  They were there to focus fully on her.

When she used the response to the eliminated men that she wished JPG had eliminated her as soon as he knew she wasn't the one, she contradicted herself.  Then why did she not do the same?  Simple, because she had a show to produce.  She was so angry with JPG after their FS.  I still do not understand why.  Not taking into account anything he did or said to other women or post show, what did JPG do to Andi that was so wrong?  If we are to assume that they did not sleep together, then his sin was in wasting one day of her time.  If she did not enjoy his company, she was free to not accept his rose if he offered her one at the next rose ceremony.  If she did have sex with JPG and then had buyers remorse, who is to blame there, and most imporantly, isn't it the same thing she did to Nick.  It was like a twisted way of paying it forward on this show.  She was used so she felt justified in using Nick?

Everytime we discuss sex it it a tricky thing because of differences in opinion.  Mature minds can admit that different people think differently about sex.  But, if you are going to live by a certain set of morals, then you should be able to defend those morals.  In otherwords, if Andi was a believer in friends with benefits, then she shouls have been able to articulate why she believes in it.  The problem is that when you partake in an activity with 2 participants, they both have to be on the same page.  If they are, no misunderstandings.  If they aren't, confusion and hurt.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.  But it does take the ability to empathize and think of others needs before your own.  After watching this season, I am fairly certain that Andi is not capable of that.

I see her relationship with Josh as lust.  I don't believe she will have the ability to make it last longterm.  She might get married to Josh, but I bet it will not be an easy road for Josh.  Some guys are willing to put up with a lot of crap in order to keep a woman.  Maybe Josh is one if those who is so blinded by the idea of love that he will be able to stick it out.  I just don't think she is going to make it easy.  

I didn't like Andi on JPG.  Felt she tried her hardest to shame him on the show and afterwards.  She is best friends with that horribly insensitive Kelly.  She is a self proclaimed diva and brat.  I did give her the benefit of the doubt this season, even said she was doing a decent job as the lead.  I now recind that compliment.  My opinion of her remains that I would never be friends with someone like her in real life.   think she has a lot of maturing left to do, but if the people around her continue to protect her and shield her from her own consequences she will never grow as a person.  Obviously a situation like ATFR rallies her troops around her, and that is to be expected. But going forward I hope that those closest to her sit down and have a heart to heart with her about her actions and that they stand up to her self righteousness. Jmo

Good post--or to me it is!   
This is how I see ME and I. I don't think in all the history of the 'Ette I have disliked an 'Ette more. At least I have been consistent and felt this way since day 1 and I didn't even see her on JPG's season.

kellkell wrote:

Ash2214 wrote:You know, watching the interaction between Nick and Andi from the ATFR back, I don't understand how people can say Andi was harsh to him. She was quiet and stern when he couldn't process his words or form his thoughts, but when Chris Harrison asked her if she was ever in love with Nick, I thought she gave an excellent answer and opened up.

While she said she was not ever in love with him and that she was careful not to say that to him, she went on to say that she had a great relationship with Nick. If she were do to it all over again she stated she absolutely knew she would still have that great relationship with Nick. There was nothing wrong with their relationship and then she says as difficult and as harsh as it is to say, at the end of the day, how do you compete with a greater relationship or a greater love? She even goes on to say that she probably made a mistake and she should have just told him that months ago (I'm guessing the first time he tried to contact her or when she broke up with him). I love how she just simply said at the end of the day, that's all it comes down to. One relationship was greater than the other and she reiterates on more than one occasion that there was nothing Nick did wrong and there was nothing wrong with their relationship.

In my opinion and for me, it's as simple as Nick didn't like what he heard. He was expecting her to say something else, although for an engaged woman apparently in love, she gave the perfect answer, and he said some things that he shouldn't have. But like someone stated a few posts above me, people make mistakes. It's funny how Andi essentially admitted to one during her speech to Nick, but I guess that went a bit unnoticed.

I'm not an Andi fan, but you absolutely nailed it.  She wasn't disrespectful towards Nick during ATFR.  She admitted to him that they had a great connection, and as he should already understand due to the fact that it was a show where she must choose only one, it just so happens she had a greater connection with someone else.  Period.  End of story.  

Now maybe Andi should have said all of this to him much sooner rather than later, but who's to say (due to editing) that she didn't explain this to Nick when she first broke it off with him months ago?  Which could be a reason why she's been avoiding him all of this time, like many in her situation who have moved on from an ex.  There is nothing new under the sun.  Unfortunately, in the real world people sleep with people they don't love.  In the real world, people have even avoided an ex at all costs because they've already had the closure that they needed.  It's time for Nick to move on.  But now via an US Weekly interview, he's open to rekindling a friendship with Josh again?  Wow, maybe he deserves the stalker label after all.

Lucas15 wrote:

jlccaz wrote:He was vengeful,  that didn't come from a place of love, it was hurtful, and he wanted to hurt because he hurt, best case

I agree and that's how I saw it also.

Di_ATL wrote:Perfectly stated, she knew at that point she had to be stern with Nick for him to understand, that she has moved on and he needs to as well.

In another post I stated that I believe she knew ahead of time this was going to be difficult because she had read the letter AND was aware of multiple attempts on Nick's part to meet with her that had been denied. She went into "ADA mode" and prepared for a tough "cross examination" and if that made her seem cold and a bit unfeeling I can well understand it. Nick didn't get the message that a refusal to meet was an answer to a question. She had to be anything but wishy-washy or she was in big trouble.

MiaHawk wrote:Looking back on the season, I feel that Andi used this group of guys as her own little Bachelorette party.  There were many, many clues that Andi was focused on the physical looks of her guys, was soaking up their adoration to feed her own ego, and was able to rationalize her actions by focusing on the fact that they were all there because she wanted them there and she was the center of that universe.  She said as much to Josh on the LD date, to Eric and the other guys that GD, and when drunk Craig got out of hand.  They were there to focus fully on her.

When she used the response to the eliminated men that she wished JPG had eliminated her as soon as he knew she wasn't the one, she contradicted herself.  Then why did she not do the same?  Simple, because she had a show to produce.  She was so angry with JPG after their FS.  I still do not understand why.  Not taking into account anything he did or said to other women or post show, what did JPG do to Andi that was so wrong?  If we are to assume that they did not sleep together, then his sin was in wasting one day of her time.  If she did not enjoy his company, she was free to not accept his rose if he offered her one at the next rose ceremony.  If she did have sex with JPG and then had buyers remorse, who is to blame there, and most imporantly, isn't it the same thing she did to Nick.  It was like a twisted way of paying it forward on this show.  She was used so she felt justified in using Nick?

Everytime we discuss sex it it a tricky thing because of differences in opinion.  Mature minds can admit that different people think differently about sex.  But, if you are going to live by a certain set of morals, then you should be able to defend those morals.  In otherwords, if Andi was a believer in friends with benefits, then she shouls have been able to articulate why she believes in it.  The problem is that when you partake in an activity with 2 participants, they both have to be on the same page.  If they are, no misunderstandings.  If they aren't, confusion and hurt.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.  But it does take the ability to empathize and think of others needs before your own.  After watching this season, I am fairly certain that Andi is not capable of that.

I see her relationship with Josh as lust.  I don't believe she will have the ability to make it last longterm.  She might get married to Josh, but I bet it will not be an easy road for Josh.  Some guys are willing to put up with a lot of crap in order to keep a woman.  Maybe Josh is one if those who is so blinded by the idea of love that he will be able to stick it out.  I just don't think she is going to make it easy.  

I didn't like Andi on JPG.  Felt she tried her hardest to shame him on the show and afterwards.  She is best friends with that horribly insensitive Kelly.  She is a self proclaimed diva and brat.  I did give her the benefit of the doubt this season, even said she was doing a decent job as the lead.  I now recind that compliment.  My opinion of her remains that I would never be friends with someone like her in real life.  I think she has a lot of maturing left to do, but if the people around her continue to protect her and shield her from her own consequences she will never grow as a person.  Obviously a situation like ATFR rallies her troops around her, and that is to be expected. But going forward I hope that those closest to her sit down and have a heart to heart with her about her actions and that they stand up to her self righteousness. Jmo

Beagle wrote:I have been reading this entire season how once Josh told Andi he was falling in love with her in Belgium, she was a goner, that's all she needed, game over, everyone can go home.

So if she was head over heels with Josh by then, isn't it dishonest and disrespectful to both Nick, who openly told Andi what sleeping together meant to their relationship, he was in love and to him it wasn't just casual sex to scratch an itch, and to Josh who she was planning to get engage to in a matter of days?

As I see it, Nick gave his heart to this woman, she used him for casual sex, disregarded his feelings completely, and disregarded what her future fiancé might think or how hurt he would be, just because it felt good to go all the way with F2 guy that night.

She made a mistake, fine, at least own up to it.

jlccaz wrote:

Beagle wrote:I have been reading this entire season how once Josh told Andi he was falling in love with her in Belgium, she was a goner, that's all she needed, game over, everyone can go home.

So if she was head over heels with Josh by then, isn't it dishonest and disrespectful to both Nick, who openly told Andi what sleeping together meant to their relationship, he was in love and to him it wasn't just casual sex to scratch an itch, and to Josh who she was planning to get engage to in a matter of days?

As I see it, Nick gave his heart to this woman, she used him for casual sex, disregarded his feelings completely, and disregarded what her future fiancé might think or how hurt he would be, just because it felt good to go all the way with F2 guy that night.

She made a mistake, fine, at least own up to it.

I have settled on the very articulate statements she made in (today's) People mag, an interview she gave BEFORE the ridiculous encounteer with Nick Monday night on live tv:

When did each of you know you had found the ONE.

JOSH: Afeter hometown dates, I knew she was going to be my wife.  When we were talking like best friends in the fantasdy suitre, I knew it was over.

ANDI: It took me a little longeer.  It was really important for me to take every single step, but looking back, those feelings were definitely there.  

You also took heat from Nick, who was in the final two.  He accused you of letting things go too far with him.

ANDI: I wasn't going to let him pick out a ring.  I neveer said I love you which I think would have been careless and reckless.  It wasn't anything that he did.  My connection was just so strrong with Josh that I couldn't have that same relationship with Nick.