Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 10 - MTP-LCD-FRC- July 28/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* #2 - Discussion

ironcat wrote:

Tnmomof4 wrote:You said it much better ironcat!
To add,  I wouldn't be surprised to at some point, learn that abc didn't let, or at the very least didn't encourage, Andi to speak with Nick.  This was the AFTR they planned, there was no way they wanted resolution beforehand.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too.  Had Andi and Nick spoken beforehand off camera, there would have been no "drama" for the live after show.  Can't imagine the producers would have been happy about that.  If they didn't flat out prohibit her, I bet they strongly suggested to her (ie manipulated her) not to meet with him.

Good points.

Just to clarify, according to my calculations, Andi would have slept with Nick about 11 days before getting engaged to Josh.  Yes, it's not much time, but it's also not a day or two before, as some seem to think.

Do I think it was a wise move on her part?  Absolutely not, and I'd like to think I wouldn't have done it had I been in her shoes.  But I also don't think that it completely absolves Nick of making their private details public in front of millions of strangers, because to be honest, what exactly did he expect her to say that would have truly provided him with any more insight as to what went wrong for him, or would give him closure, and what did he accomplish other than embarrassing her?  Maybe it salved his ego a little, and he definitely got some revenge because a lot of viewers are now hating on her, even if that wasn't his intention.  Definitely not one of his proudest moments, and I actually suspect in hindsight, Nick would agree.

Regarding the comparisons with what Reid did, just want to state that Reid only implied that something may have gone on in the FS, but he never outright claimed it did, and he did it in a much more charming and light hearted way, IMO.

I can't even describe how disappointed i am with Nick and what he said. Disappointed about Andi sleeping with Nick too.
I wish them all well and happiness though.

ironcat wrote:Regarding the seeming contradiction regarding what Andi said at the FRC about being in love with Josh from day 1 and what she said on JK about not making her decision until the day of the FRC, I guess I heard things differently than most did.  To me, what she said to Josh at the FRC was that the feelings he gave her from their first meeting and from every interaction since, she now, in retrospect, understands was love, although she didn't realize it at the time.  It's kind of a revisionist history if you will, but I really believe her when she said on JK that she didn't completely decide that she was going to choose Josh (and fully accept that she was madly in love with him) until that last day, which is probably why she felt it was "okay" to sleep with Nick, because IMO she still hadn't firmly made up her mind who she was choosing at that point.  I wonder if she had had the FD with Josh first, would she have done the same thing?    I think the producers may have scheduled Nick's date first for a reason.

I certainly get why Nick fans and people who don't like Andi are outraged at her, she certainly could have handled things better.  Someone weeks ago described Andi's methodology on this show as bloodless, and I really think this sums it up.  I agree that she has been pissed off at Nick for the past 2 months, and receiving that letter from him where he not only poured his heart out, but also questioned her judgment and courage, probably only made her feel colder towards him, especially as she seems to be over the moon smitten with Josh right now.  It's no wonder that she wouldn't give an inch about using the "L" word in relation to anything about Nick, even though it obviously would have been far more gracious of her if she had.  But she is stubborn, and even moreso when she's pissed.

Regarding being in love, everyone gets so hung up on saying the words, but as so many alumni from this show have said in the past, none of them are probably really "in love" until after they get to know each other once the show ends, and IMO that includes Andi, Josh and Nick.  That's not to say they don't develop intense feelings that resemble love; there's no doubt that Nick was hurting (the poor guy was shaking).  And anyway, until they develop a scientific test to determine/prove who is really in love and who isn't, it's all subjective and a matter of semantics IMO.

Just chiming in, before this story grows legs and runs away, that Andi and Josh did NOT meet before, only that they saw each other across the room at a club, but didn't speak.  Actually, I'm not sure Andi even acknowledged that she saw Josh, but he definitely saw her and knew that he wasn't allowed to approach her.  That's hardly a big deal in my book.

eta tnmom, just saw we posted the same thing at the same time.    

I'm probably one of the strongest advocates for staying fair to these human beings who have complicated experiences on this show and I am a big fan of the guys on this season....But the extent of Andi's actions, coldness and words which completely and strongly supports tptb's completely throwing nick under the bus only shows an andi who is sooooo egotistical, selfcentered, unempathetic and arrogant that she showed NOT One Ounce of kindness to someone whose heart she broke. It showed her true lack of maturity to not comprehend the intensity of heartbreak to ease it for a fellow human being who she constantly encouraged to have those feelings. Maybe my standards for human decency are wayyy too high for someone who watches this show but I find Andi's behavior something quite humiliating to herself and her family. And this is looking at it singularly and not rooting for any of the guys at any point. I felt similarly about how Andi dealt with Chris and her sulky tauntrum whining that she doesn't want to make up her mind and be the bad guy like she almost wants HIM to break up with himself     whatttt?? how selfish and immature is that?

The contradiction you mention I'm pretty sure actually came up during AFRC (others can correct me if i'm wrong)  and I don't remember the exact phrasing but she said something along the lines of completely denying that she ever felt any kind of love for nick or loved aspects of nick, she said she never told him she loved him and was careful not to. not only is this "not handled well" or is "revisionist history" it is completely callous, cold and aggressive after all the reassurances, after telling him not to worry, after sleeping with him, after telling him to trust her, after saying she'll turn him into a believer. If you are suggesting that she's trying to avenge the LETTER Nick wrote her which questions her judgement and courage because he was still in love with her and hoped she might be his "the one" as he'd dreamed...then you are truly suggesting that Andi has zero empathy for someone she completely led to the water then completely broke his heart then went around and accused of not picking up her signs cos she never SAID she loved him in a show where the format even doesn't allow the lead to say they love anyone. If andi is not able to see how nick might believe deeply that he was in love with her based on her behavior with him where she made no attempt to clarify her affirmative behaviors to him during their breakup....AND she rejected him in the accusatory "it isn't right...a life with you would have us over analyze every single thing" accusing him of a deficiency when she was breaking his heart...and then on top of that feeling slighted that he would question her judgement and courage for not picking him when he so obviously and clearly was saying "I could be making all this up" but staying true to his own feelings. If you're really trying to excuse her stubborness, bloodless and self-centered approach of denying any feelings she's ever had and zero effort to empathizing with him while even attempting to congratulate herself for making him fall in love "you must be glad you were able to get there!!" "it must be hard to not have it reciprocated" i.e. digging the knife deeper when he kept telling her he felt it was reciprocated by her....all this being true it is really only confirming more strongly that she is completely blind and completely self-absorbed with zero compassion, kindness and basic human decency towards him. When someone you encouraged to love you turns around and doubts your decision -- feeling colder towards him is completely self-absorbed and lacks any ounce of insight. If this truly is who Andi is...then she's even more MeAndi/diva/bratty and a spoiled little girl than we ever did imagine and it's a shame the beautiful man that is Josh is going to get caught in her trap.

Last thing to note -- chloep has had sources share right around the time of the FRC that andi and josh met several times before filming and they were even set up in a hotel room in cali prior to the start of filming...this is supported by the social media behavior of their families where the murrays and dorfmans were following each other and saying they are excited for their kids to meet when on the show Hy acted like he had no idea who Josh was and who his family was at the MTP. Everything else that chloep had shared regarding the storyline with a hesitant nick who falls hard all adds up.

The thing is Nick was not given closure at the very least and perhaps at the very most was encouraged by TPTB to get closure. 
We will never know for sure what lengths TPTB went to to encourage Nick to follow up and get closure with MeandI.
 According to TPTB, he reached out during her Mexico trip(which had to have been producer manipulation in order for him to even know MeandI's travel plans), he reached out during the MTN, a producer went to MKE and sought him out again. 
It's not as if Nick was left on his own to process the situation for 2 months after his dismissal. He had no closure and it appears he was not allowed closure by TPTB.
Then he is given the opportunity for closure and has questions, but he is not allowed to question MeandI. She gets into full Duck face mode. You do not question her, as Eric found out. She never loved Nick, plain and simple, move on dolt. Move on. So he questions her again and gets more of the same. So he pushes the envelope and blatantly questions how her FS actions lined up with the feelings she is saying she had.
Maybe he regrets what he said. It was not gentlemanly. There aren't excuses. I can't remember if he apologized or not. But I know there were no apologies from MeandI. I would not expect any.

I only wish Andi would have answered Nick's fs remark with "and that's why Josh is the one I love" but as entertaining as that would have been, I don't think it would have won her too many points.

BKay wrote:

CHO wrote:Nick was an easy target - and tptb and Andi rolled with it.  He talked a lot, yes, but that made it easy for Andi - she didn't have to say much.  Imo - it's one thing to lead the contestants on - and sleeping together is beyond what is necessary - but ..... how could Andi do this when she is obviously in love with Josh ?  That's what baffles me !  Are you not thinking about what Josh might feel if he found out ?  How would she feel if Josh was sleeping around days before he was proposing ?  Unbelievable.  Maybe it's a good thing - maybe future bachelors and bachelorettes will use their heads in the future.

In my experience, this is the type of thing that will always be below the surface with this couple - a source of quiet mistrust that will erupt at times to torment them.

Here's the thing for me...the whole premise of the show is the lead dating multiple people at one time. The lead knows it, and the contestants should full well know it, too. Andi did nothing different IMO than other leads have done before her, and that was to treat each relationship as a separate dating experience. What she did behind closed doors with anyone should have remained behind closed doors for starters. I know some don't want to believe in the idea that, in spite of her connection and feelings from the start for Josh, it wasn't until she had gone through the entire experience from beginning to F2 that she was sure in her mind and heart that it belonged to Josh completely. She did not cheat on Josh and as far as we know, she hadn't told him that he was exclusive and that she was in love with him prior to declaring it at the FRC. To say she was sleeping around days before proposing is missing the mark in my opinion. And I think Josh is smart enough to realize that until he placed that ring on her finger, he was guaranteed nothing, and she was not completely his, though he was confident she would be. And I believe that Andi told Josh everything once she was officially engaged to him. I don't believe that this will have any bearing on their real life relationship, and don't think that it has even to this point. I believe this formed a foundation for their trust in each other, not the opposite. If either cheats now, that is a different story. I don't foresee that happening at all.

ironcat wrote:Just to clarify, according to my calculations, Andi would have slept with Nick about 11 days before getting engaged to Josh.  Yes, it's not much time, but it's also not a day or two before, as some seem to think.

Do I think it was a wise move on her part?  Absolutely not, and I'd like to think I wouldn't have done it had I been in her shoes.  But I also don't think that it completely absolves Nick of making their private details public in front of millions of strangers, because to be honest, what exactly did he expect her to say that would have truly provided him with any more insight as to what went wrong for him, or would give him closure, and what did he accomplish other than embarrassing her?  Maybe it salved his ego a little, and he definitely got some revenge because a lot of viewers are now hating on her, even if that wasn't his intention.  Definitely not one of his proudest moments, and I actually suspect in hindsight, Nick would agree.

Regarding the comparisons with what Reid did, just want to state that Reid only implied that something may have gone on in the FS, but he never outright claimed it did, and he did it in a much more charming and light hearted way, IMO.

If you follow the dialogue Nick wasn't trying to get revenge in that conversation...he was trying to earn validation that he wasn't crazy to think she had feelings for him and that she was falling for him -- his experience of their relationship seemed drastically different from what she's describing
CH asked if andi ever loved sides or or aspects of nick
andi said she never told nick she loved him and was very careful not to say that (pretty much saying that no...she didn't love him)
Nick tried to insinuate -- "but the moments shared between us" indicated more to him and how she was with him it felt not like what she's describing "it must not feel good to not have it reciprocated" nick responds "it felt like you did [reciprocate]" after these series of exchanges...with andi doing her utter best to completely deny any feelings for him...for his sanity nick proceeded to tentatively and extremely hesitantly draw out a concrete question that to him showed that she had feelings the level of intimacy she shared...and he felt it necessary for his own sanity at this point because andi was pretty much denying any feelings she's ever had with him. Nick also tried to talk with her in person at MTA, Mexico and other times Andi refused. why??

emusha wrote:

ironcat wrote:Regarding the seeming contradiction regarding what Andi said at the FRC about being in love with Josh from day 1 and what she said on JK about not making her decision until the day of the FRC, I guess I heard things differently than most did.  To me, what she said to Josh at the FRC was that the feelings he gave her from their first meeting and from every interaction since, she now, in retrospect, understands was love, although she didn't realize it at the time.  It's kind of a revisionist history if you will, but I really believe her when she said on JK that she didn't completely decide that she was going to choose Josh (and fully accept that she was madly in love with him) until that last day, which is probably why she felt it was "okay" to sleep with Nick, because IMO she still hadn't firmly made up her mind who she was choosing at that point.  I wonder if she had had the FD with Josh first, would she have done the same thing?    I think the producers may have scheduled Nick's date first for a reason.

I certainly get why Nick fans and people who don't like Andi are outraged at her, she certainly could have handled things better.  Someone weeks ago described Andi's methodology on this show as bloodless, and I really think this sums it up.  I agree that she has been pissed off at Nick for the past 2 months, and receiving that letter from him where he not only poured his heart out, but also questioned her judgment and courage, probably only made her feel colder towards him, especially as she seems to be over the moon smitten with Josh right now.  It's no wonder that she wouldn't give an inch about using the "L" word in relation to anything about Nick, even though it obviously would have been far more gracious of her if she had.  But she is stubborn, and even moreso when she's pissed.

Regarding being in love, everyone gets so hung up on saying the words, but as so many alumni from this show have said in the past, none of them are probably really "in love" until after they get to know each other once the show ends, and IMO that includes Andi, Josh and Nick.  That's not to say they don't develop intense feelings that resemble love; there's no doubt that Nick was hurting (the poor guy was shaking).  And anyway, until they develop a scientific test to determine/prove who is really in love and who isn't, it's all subjective and a matter of semantics IMO.

Just chiming in, before this story grows legs and runs away, that Andi and Josh did NOT meet before, only that they saw each other across the room at a club, but didn't speak.  Actually, I'm not sure Andi even acknowledged that she saw Josh, but he definitely saw her and knew that he wasn't allowed to approach her.  That's hardly a big deal in my book.

eta tnmom, just saw we posted the same thing at the same time.    

I'm probably one of the strongest advocates for staying fair to these human beings who have complicated experiences on this show and I am a big fan of the guys on this season....But the extent of Andi's actions, coldness and words which completely and strongly supports tptb's completely throwing nick under the bus only shows an andi who is sooooo egotistical, selfcentered, unempathetic and arrogant that she showed NOT One Ounce of kindness to someone whose heart she broke. It showed her true lack of maturity to not comprehend the intensity of heartbreak to ease it for a fellow human being who she constantly encouraged to have those feelings. Maybe my standards for human decency are wayyy too high for someone who watches this show but I find Andi's behavior something quite humiliating to herself and her family. And this is looking at it singularly and not rooting for any of the guys at any point. I felt similarly about how Andi dealt with Chris and her sulky tauntrum whining that she doesn't want to make up her mind and be the bad guy like she almost wants HIM to break up with himself     whatttt?? how selfish and immature is that?

The contradiction you mention I'm pretty sure actually came up during AFRC (others can correct me if i'm wrong)  and I don't remember the exact phrasing but she said something along the lines of completely denying that she ever felt any kind of love for nick or loved aspects of nick, she said she never told him she loved him and was careful not to. not only is this "not handled well" or is "revisionist history" it is completely callous, cold and aggressive after all the reassurances, after telling him not to worry, after sleeping with him, after telling him to trust her, after saying she'll turn him into a believer. If you are suggesting that she's trying to avenge the LETTER Nick wrote her which questions her judgement and courage because he was still in love with her and hoped she might be his "the one" as he'd dreamed...then you are truly suggesting that Andi has zero empathy for someone she completely led to the water then completely broke his heart then went around and accused of not picking up her signs cos she never SAID she loved him in a show where the format even doesn't allow the lead to say they love anyone. If andi is not able to see how nick might believe deeply that he was in love with her based on her behavior with him where she made no attempt to clarify her affirmative behaviors to him during their breakup....AND she rejected him in the accusatory "it isn't right...a life with you would have us over analyze every single thing" accusing him of a deficiency when she was breaking his heart...and then on top of that feeling slighted that he would question her judgement and courage for not picking him when he so obviously and clearly was saying "I could be making all this up" but staying true to his own feelings. If you're really trying to excuse her stubborness, bloodless and self-centered approach of denying any feelings she's ever had and zero effort to empathizing with him while even attempting to congratulate herself for making him fall in love "you must be glad you were able to get there!!" "it must be hard to not have it reciprocated" i.e. digging the knife deeper when he kept telling her he felt it was reciprocated by her....all this being true it is really only confirming more strongly that she is completely blind and completely self-absorbed with zero compassion, kindness and basic human decency towards him. When someone you encouraged to love you turns around and doubts your decision -- feeling colder towards him is completely self-absorbed and lacks any ounce of insight. If this truly is who Andi is...then she's even more MeAndi/diva/bratty and a spoiled little girl than we ever did imagine and it's a shame the beautiful man that is Josh is going to get caught in her trap.

Last thing to note -- chloep has had sources share right around the time of the FRC that andi and josh met several times before filming and they were even set up in a hotel room in cali prior to the start of filming...this is supported by the social media behavior of their families where the murrays and dorfmans were following each other and saying they are excited for their kids to meet when on the show Hy acted like he had no idea who Josh was and who his family was. Everything else that chloep had shared regarding the storyline with a hesitant nick who falls hard all adds up.

I never said that I excused Andi's behavior or said it was justified, I only gave my interpretation of why she reacted the way she did.  Frankly, I don't appreciate the implication inherent in your post, but let's leave it at that.  Let's just agree to disagree about how horrible a person Andi is or isn't.  And I don't know whether Andi and Josh met a thousand times before the show, I was just clarifying that they did not confirm any such meetings on JK, as some posts were claiming.

As far as the contradiction issue, that had nothing to do with whether or not she loved Nick.  That had to do with when she knew she was in love with Josh.  My interpretation of what she told Josh at the FRC was that she only realized in hindsight that she was in love with him from the beginning, not that she went through the whole filming knowing she was in love with him.  That's a big difference IMO, and explains the contradiction.  Whether I believe her or not is another story, but that's the story she's selling.

I just want to clarify for there to be no misinterpretation here...I made my comment from a place of frustration of finding myself coming back to watch this show and to keep having high expectations for how people on this show and tptb treat people. I don't mean to insinuate anything about people who watch the show or anything else. I just meant to say this show has repeatedly over and over showed us what to expect and yet my expectations remain high....I should probably take a note from atem's book and completely give up on being naive about it... particularly with JPG's season that was a real eye opener but I find it pulling me back and I'm just battling with my disappointment at hoping for so much better from everyone involved.

Regarding Andi - I can only hope that she has better insight as time passes into the extent of her lack of kindness for Nick in this situation.

Kashathediva wrote:The thing is Nick was not given closure at the very least and perhaps at the very most was encouraged by TPTB to get closure. 
We will never know for sure what lengths TPTB went to to encourage Nick to follow up and get closure with MeandI.
 According to TPTB, he reached out during her Mexico trip(which had to have been producer manipulation in order for him to even know MeandI's travel plans), he reached out during the MTN, a producer went to MKE and sought him out again. 
It's not as if Nick was left on his own to process the situation for 2 months after his dismissal. He had no closure and it appears he was not allowed closure by TPTB.
Then he is given the opportunity for closure and has questions, but he is not allowed to question MeandI. She gets into full Duck face mode. You do not question her, as Eric found out. She never loved Nick, plain and simple, move on dolt. Move on. So he questions her again and gets more of the same. So he pushes the envelope and blatantly questions how her FS actions lined up with the feelings she is saying she had.
Maybe he regrets what he said. It was not gentlemanly. There aren't excuses. I can't remember if he apologized or not. But I know there were no apologies from MeandI. I would not expect any.

This.

If you remember when Arie went to Emily's and left the notebook(diary) it was on his own. There were no cameras following him around and we didn't get to "see" it so IMO you are exactly correct that TPTB were "encouraging" him to keep seeking her out for drama. I don't agree with how either of them (A & N) acted last night but oddly enough I feel sorry for Nick b/c he seems to be a normal guy (who doesn't do well with hurt and should really talk to someone about his inability to let it go) who got used up by TPTB and caught up in his own mind to realize that this is how the show works. I like Josh, I hope he and Andi live happily ever after but I imagine life with her will be a daily "journey" if you will.

Thanks for the clarification.  It's all good.    I guess my attitude is since I don't know these people and don't expect to ever know these people, I don't really care that much.  Besides, I have blood pressure issues, and can't let it affect my health.  

I agree that no doubt the producers were very instrumental in orchestrating Nick's post show pursuit of Andi, from encouraging him to seek her out, to having her turn down meeting with him, to having him write the letter, to having CH egg on the confrontation at ATFR. They got just what they wanted out of both of them. And no way were they going to let any of that happen off camera in private. Too bad Nick didn't just tell them to shove it, but I guess he was too heartbroken, and maybe they did have him by the balls because of the plane video.