Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread

[Sable]

So my problem w/Andi is not that she didn't pick Nick, it was the way she treated him first when she let him go the day of the FRC and then how she treated him on ATFR.  I have never seen a lead of this show be so cold and unfeeling to their F2.  

What in your opinion constituted bad treatment when Andi first let Nick go in the DR?

She really gave him no answers as to why she was letting him go. She stole his line that she woke up that morning and something didn't feel right, and then she tried to put the blame on him for being too analytical. She had much more compassion and gave better explanations to the men she let go in earlier rose ceremonies than she did to Nick.

[timfan]

I think she gave him the reason of being to analytical is because she felt that was better than saying i am not in love with you she even said at the atfr that it is hard to say to someone's face she did say she should have said it months ago

[Alanna]

So my problem w/Andi is not that she didn't pick Nick, it was the way she treated him first when she let him go the day of the FRC and then how she treated him on ATFR.  I have never seen a lead of this show be so cold and unfeeling to their F2.  

What in your opinion constituted bad treatment when Andi first let Nick go in the DR?

She really gave him no answers as to why she was letting him go.  She stole his line that she woke up that morning and something didn't feel right, and then she tried to put the blame on him for being too analytical.  She had much more compassion and gave better explanations to the men she let go in earlier rose ceremonies than she did to Nick.

She told him she cannot relax with him, they both overanalyze everything and she doesn't have fun with him. Isn't that enough? It's all true and not a line imo because both during filming and now, post-show she keeps mentioning how Josh knows how to calm her down, keep her laughing, and helps her feels young and vibrant. Josh calls Andi hysterical and witty, they get each other. Even Nick must know this as I recall him saying he doesn't get her sense of humor and they don't laugh together or however he expressed it. Makes sense to me and these are legitimate reasons for him being f2.

[dw_a_mom]

I don't understand how people see Nick's reactions as manipulative. Was he trying to get what he wanted? Sure. Who doesn't? But there is no evidence that he wanted to get that at the expense of what Andi wanted - he seemed to sincerely believe she had misunderstood things - and it is that dissonance that makes the difference between aggressive action and manipulation, in my opinion.

The ill-fated remark on TV was a hurt guy being really stupid. Which is what people hurt in love often are - really stupid.

Do I wish Andi had said things to Nick that she didn't? Yes. She said it all perfectly in her interviews, but somehow couldn't get the right words at the ATFR. And what she said at the break up - well, I don't think she was allowed to say more (although it would have been sooo much better if she had) and, honestly, she was dead on about how their over-analyzing could feed off each other and create negativity.

Long run, I think we watch this show and learn what not to do, and maybe get better at advising friends in dating situations. But we don't learn much about the cast of characters, and I've never understood the strong negative opinions that can be formed.

[Ash2214]

Andi couldn't get the right words at the ATFR?

Before he even threw out the sex bomb, Andi gave the perfect answer. When CH asked if she ever loved Nick, Andi gave the perfect reply. She stated she had feelings for Nick. She knew that if she were to do this whole process all over again, she would still have the same relationship with Nick that she did the first time. She told him she meant everything she said about him. She said she meant it when she said he made her feel like a woman. She enjoyed getting to know him, but in the end (she also admitted her mistake) she said that she probably should have just said this earlier (probably meaning the initial break up) that in the end, how can you compete with a greater love and a greater relationship. She said there was nothing wrong with Nick, but ultimately she fell in love with Josh and had a greater relationship with him.

That is the perfect answer. She admitted she cared for him and had feelings for him. She admitted the things she said on the show were true. She finally admitted she made a mistake and should have told him sooner, but she fell in love with Josh. She was honest. Not sure what else anyone could have expected her to say. Hell, even after Nick told millions of people, including her friends, her family and Josh's family that Nick had sex with her, what was her reply after talking about how it should have been kept private? She said she respected Nick and the relationship they had together and she even goes further into stating how she meant everything she said about him. If that was me, I wouldn't have been so respectful in that situation. If my ex boyfriend, who I dated for two years (not 10 weeks like Nick) did something similar to me just to my friends and family, I would have lost it on him if he ever told anyone what we did or didn't do behind closed doors.

I can see debating whether or not Andi handled the intial breakup well, but the ATFR? She couldn't have responded more perfectly. Plus there's something called editing. Very possible, like other haves suggested, that we didn't see all of the break up.

I really just think Nick got it in his head that she was going to "pull a Mesnick" and anything else Andi said that night to him wasn't going to be enough. He got upset, angry, hurt, what have you when she said she was never in love with him. His response was to hurt her the way she hurt him. It's as simple as that for me.

[Lucas15]

I remember discussion on these boards about the screen shots of Andi leaving what we all presumed was Nick's hotel room and that she didn't look all that broken up.  IMO, Andi went into Nick's room that day ready for an argument which she, correctly, assumed was coming when she let Nick go.  Being "loaded for bear" as my mother would say, she didn't go in with a very sympathetic face or attitude.  ...  I felt like it wasn't the same emphatic Andi that Chris S got a couple of days earlier.

I didn't see her as loaded for bear, I rather saw a resolve to get through a difficult situation but each of us is going to see that differently. Nick said on the plane phone to his parents that he didn't argue with her (which in and of itself is a strange thing to say - why would it ever occur to him to argue with someone who is breaking up with him? Is that something that you argue over? Whatever ..) but in point of fact he did argue with her, or at least attacked her.

Andi explains her reasons for breaking up:

We were talking and you told me that the last time you got engaged you woke up that morning and didn't feel that something was right. Well, this morning I woke up and I didn't feel that something was right. And I can't go through with something that I don't think is right ... the feeling of not right. It's not right, it's not what I envisioned. It's clear to me that the things I see in you, the things I see with us are ultimately not what I think is best for us.

....

I mean I started feeling like knowing the intensity between us I felt that worry like that worry there being so much intensity and so much over analyzing, and then honestly like the last date I wanted to just have fun and wanted to relax and as hard as I tried I couldn't do that with you. It's like we both over analyze everything and I feel like a life with you would be me over analyzing every. single. moment. and ...

Note here she doesn't blame Nick, she says "me over analyzing"

But then Nick shifts the blame finger and points it at Andi:

When I told you I love you ... I don't know how you could look at me the way you did and (???) the way you did and be sitting here right now and ... and so when you looked at me sometimes and smiled at me sometimes I just took it that you meant it.

If you've never dealt with someone who does this (shifts the blame for anything that goes wrong in their life to you or someone else) then I sincerely hope you never have to. It's very frustrating.


Now I do agree with you that things went a lot differently with Chris a couple of days earlier but less because of Andi and more because of Chris. Instead of arguing or debating Chris very simply said "If this isn't going to go anywhere I want to go home".

IMO, Andi wasn't crying as she left because she had done the job and already moved on.

I've been married for over 30 years to a woman who is very strong and I could count on the number of fingers of one hand the number of times I've ever seen her cry. IMHO you can't judge how emotional or difficult something is by the "tear count". Sometimes the tougher something is the less emotion you show doing it; you have to screw up your courage to get you through it and that shuts off the tears. Sometimes the tears come much later - after you no longer need that inner strength and you can relax and then the emotion lets loose. We didn't see Andi in the aftermath so we don't know what she did when she got back to her room.

[Sable]

What in your opinion constituted bad treatment when Andi first let Nick go in the DR?

She really gave him no answers as to why she was letting him go.  She stole his line that she woke up that morning and something didn't feel right, and then she tried to put the blame on him for being too analytical.  She had much more compassion and gave better explanations to the men she let go in earlier rose ceremonies than she did to Nick.

She told him she cannot relax with him, they both overanalyze everything and she doesn't have fun with him. Isn't that enough? It's all true and not a line imo because both during filming and now, post-show she keeps mentioning how Josh knows how to calm her down, keep her laughing, and helps her feels young and vibrant. Josh calls Andi hysterical and witty, they get each other. Even Nick must know this as I recall him saying he doesn't get her sense of humor and they don't laugh together or however he expressed it. Makes sense to me and these are legitimate reasons for him being f2.

Bolding by me...

Well, if that is all true, then double shame on Andi for bringing him all the way to the F2. She should have brought someone that she could relax with and someone that she has fun with. I know that there is somebody on these shows that has to go to the F2, but I still strongly believe that Andi led Nick on too much (to the point of unnecessary manipulation), and then when she didn't need him any longer she just wanted to be done with him and wanted him to go away. Most leads are careful with the feelings of their F2, but not Andi. The only one that I think treated their F2 in a similar manner imo is Juan Pablo, ironically.

At think at this point that Nick has realized that Andi was not the woman he thought she was and realizes that he was never meant to be the F1.

[Lucas15]

Andi couldn't get the right words at the ATFR?

Before he even threw out the sex bomb, Andi gave the perfect answer. When CH asked if she ever loved Nick, Andi gave the perfect reply. She stated she had feelings for Nick. She knew that if she were to do this whole process all over again, she would still have the same relationship with Nick that she did the first time. She told him she meant everything she said about him. She said she meant it when she said he made her feel like a woman. She enjoyed getting to know him, but in the end (she also admitted her mistake) she said that she probably should have just said this earlier (probably meaning the initial break up) that in the end, how can you compete with a greater love and a greater relationship. She said there was nothing wrong with Nick, but ultimately she fell in love with Josh and had a greater relationship with him.

That is the perfect answer. She admitted she cared for him and had feelings for him. She admitted the things she said on the show were true. She finally admitted she made a mistake and should have told him sooner, but she fell in love with Josh. She was honest. Not sure what else anyone could have expected her to say. Hell, even after Nick told millions of people, including her friends, her family and Josh's family that Nick had sex with her, what was her reply after talking about how it should have been kept private? She said she respected Nick and the relationship they had together and she even goes further into stating how she meant everything she said about him. If that was me, I wouldn't have been so respectful in that situation. If my ex boyfriend, who I dated for two years (not 10 weeks like Nick) did something similar to me just to my friends and family, I would have lost it on him if he ever told anyone what we did or didn't do behind closed doors.

I can see debating whether or not Andi handled the intial breakup well, but the ATFR? She couldn't have responded more perfectly. Plus there's something called editing. Very possible, like other haves suggested, that we didn't see all of the break up.

I really just think Nick got it in his head that she was going to "pull a Mesnick" and anything else Andi said that night to him wasn't going to be enough. He got upset, angry, hurt, what have you when she said she was never in love with him. His response was to hurt her the way she hurt him. It's as simple as that for me.

I couldn't have said this any better; in fact I don't think I could have said it near as well.

I do agree with you that Nick was hoping for or even expecting a Mesnick and when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he seemed to get mad (did anyone besides me see his hands shaking after she said she had found a greater love?) or at least very emotional and that was when he asked the question. I can't argue that he wasn't hurt because I think he was, but IMHO the solution for hurt isn't to hurt back.

[Relalou]

Andi couldn't get the right words at the ATFR?

Before he even threw out the sex bomb, Andi gave the perfect answer. When CH asked if she ever loved Nick, Andi gave the perfect reply. She stated she had feelings for Nick. She knew that if she were to do this whole process all over again, she would still have the same relationship with Nick that she did the first time. She told him she meant everything she said about him. She said she meant it when she said he made her feel like a woman. She enjoyed getting to know him, but in the end (she also admitted her mistake) she said that she probably should have just said this earlier (probably meaning the initial break up) that in the end, how can you compete with a greater love and a greater relationship. She said there was nothing wrong with Nick, but ultimately she fell in love with Josh and had a greater relationship with him.

That is the perfect answer. She admitted she cared for him and had feelings for him. She admitted the things she said on the show were true. She finally admitted she made a mistake and should have told him sooner, but she fell in love with Josh. She was honest. Not sure what else anyone could have expected her to say. Hell, even after Nick told millions of people, including her friends, her family and Josh's family that Nick had sex with her, what was her reply after talking about how it should have been kept private? She said she respected Nick and the relationship they had together and she even goes further into stating how she meant everything she said about him. If that was me, I wouldn't have been so respectful in that situation. If my ex boyfriend, who I dated for two years (not 10 weeks like Nick) did something similar to me just to my friends and family, I would have lost it on him if he ever told anyone what we did or didn't do behind closed doors.

I can see debating whether or not Andi handled the intial breakup well, but the ATFR? She couldn't have responded more perfectly. Plus there's something called editing. Very possible, like other haves suggested, that we didn't see all of the break up.

I really just think Nick got it in his head that she was going to "pull a Mesnick" and anything else Andi said that night to him wasn't going to be enough. He got upset, angry, hurt, what have you when she said she was never in love with him. His response was to hurt her the way she hurt him. It's as simple as that for me.

I couldn't have said this any better; in fact I don't think I could have said it near as well.

I do agree with you that Nick was hoping for or even expecting a Mesnick and when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he seemed to get mad (did anyone besides me see his hands shaking after she said she had found a greater love?) or at least very emotional and that was when he asked the question. I can't argue that he wasn't hurt because I think he was, but IMHO the solution for hurt isn't to hurt back.

Extremely well said by both of you. ITA.   

[stuckinsc]

I remember discussion on these boards about the screen shots of Andi leaving what we all presumed was Nick's hotel room and that she didn't look all that broken up.  IMO, Andi went into Nick's room that day ready for an argument which she, correctly, assumed was coming when she let Nick go.  Being "loaded for bear" as my mother would say, she didn't go in with a very sympathetic face or attitude.  ...  I felt like it wasn't the same emphatic Andi that Chris S got a couple of days earlier.

I didn't see her as loaded for bear, I rather saw a resolve to get through a difficult situation but each of us is going to see that differently. Nick said on the plane phone to his parents that he didn't argue with her (which in and of itself is a strange thing to say - why would it ever occur to him to argue with someone who is breaking up with him? Is that something that you argue over? Whatever ..) but in point of fact he did argue with her, or at least attacked her.

Andi explains her reasons for breaking up:

We were talking and you told me that the last time you got engaged you woke up that morning and didn't feel that something was right. Well, this morning I woke up and I didn't feel that something was right. And I can't go through with something that I don't think is right ... the feeling of not right. It's not right, it's not what I envisioned. It's clear to me that the things I see in you, the things I see with us are ultimately not what I think is best for us.

....

I mean I started feeling like knowing the intensity between us I felt that worry like that worry there being so much intensity and so much over analyzing, and then honestly like the last date I wanted to just have fun and wanted to relax and as hard as I tried I couldn't do that with you. It's like we both over analyze everything and I feel like a life with you would be me over analyzing every. single. moment. and ...

Note here she doesn't blame Nick, she says "me over analyzing"

But then Nick shifts the blame finger and points it at Andi:

When I told you I love you ... I don't know how you could look at me the way you did and (???) the way you did and be sitting here right now and ... and so when you looked at me sometimes and smiled at me sometimes I just took it that you meant it.

If you've never dealt with someone who does this (shifts the blame for anything that goes wrong in their life to you or someone else) then I sincerely hope you never have to. It's very frustrating.


Now I do agree with you that things went a lot differently with Chris a couple of days earlier but less because of Andi and more because of Chris. Instead of arguing or debating Chris very simply said "If this isn't going to go anywhere I want to go home".

IMO, Andi wasn't crying as she left because she had done the job and already moved on.

I've been married for over 30 years to a woman who is very strong and I could count on the number of fingers of one hand the number of times I've ever seen her cry. IMHO you can't judge how emotional or difficult something is by the "tear count". Sometimes the tougher something is the less emotion you show doing it; you have to screw up your courage to get you through it and that shuts off the tears. Sometimes the tears come much later - after you no longer need that inner strength and you can relax and then the emotion lets loose. We didn't see Andi in the aftermath so we don't know what she did when she got back to her room.

Lucas, I get the impression that Andi reminds you a lot of your wife.  So you feel protective of her.  Understandable.

The thing you put here that is the biggest problem for me is what you wrote about Chris.  Everything is fine if Andi isn't questioned.  BUT, when she is watch out.  Andi is fine if you don't question her, but if you do then you are in trouble.

Sorry, in the real world people question you and no one is ever always right.  Andi needs to learn to deal with people questioning her.

Andi was doing the breaking up, when you do that you do have the responsibility to explain and in my opinion try to help the other person through it.  I have never been broken up with and just said okay and not questioned it.  If any of you have, then you are better than me.  When my heart is breaking, I want to understand and even if it is broken, I even want to know why I can't fix it.  Is it the healthiest?  Nope, but it is my human reaction. 

I guess I am the only person on this board who has ever reached out to an ex or had an ex reach out to them.  When you loved someone and they aren't a part of your life anymore it can hurt and closure and moving on can take different amounts of time for different people.  I found when my ex was kind to me or I was kind to them it helped.

[stuckinsc]

Andi couldn't get the right words at the ATFR?

Before he even threw out the sex bomb, Andi gave the perfect answer. When CH asked if she ever loved Nick, Andi gave the perfect reply. She stated she had feelings for Nick. She knew that if she were to do this whole process all over again, she would still have the same relationship with Nick that she did the first time. She told him she meant everything she said about him. She said she meant it when she said he made her feel like a woman. She enjoyed getting to know him, but in the end (she also admitted her mistake) she said that she probably should have just said this earlier (probably meaning the initial break up) that in the end, how can you compete with a greater love and a greater relationship. She said there was nothing wrong with Nick, but ultimately she fell in love with Josh and had a greater relationship with him.

That is the perfect answer. She admitted she cared for him and had feelings for him. She admitted the things she said on the show were true. She finally admitted she made a mistake and should have told him sooner, but she fell in love with Josh. She was honest. Not sure what else anyone could have expected her to say. Hell, even after Nick told millions of people, including her friends, her family and Josh's family that Nick had sex with her, what was her reply after talking about how it should have been kept private? She said she respected Nick and the relationship they had together and she even goes further into stating how she meant everything she said about him. If that was me, I wouldn't have been so respectful in that situation. If my ex boyfriend, who I dated for two years (not 10 weeks like Nick) did something similar to me just to my friends and family, I would have lost it on him if he ever told anyone what we did or didn't do behind closed doors.

I can see debating whether or not Andi handled the intial breakup well, but the ATFR? She couldn't have responded more perfectly. Plus there's something called editing. Very possible, like other haves suggested, that we didn't see all of the break up.

I really just think Nick got it in his head that she was going to "pull a Mesnick" and anything else Andi said that night to him wasn't going to be enough. He got upset, angry, hurt, what have you when she said she was never in love with him. His response was to hurt her the way she hurt him. It's as simple as that for me.

I couldn't have said this any better; in fact I don't think I could have said it near as well.

I do agree with you that Nick was hoping for or even expecting a Mesnick and when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he seemed to get mad (did anyone besides me see his hands shaking after she said she had found a greater love?) or at least very emotional and that was when he asked the question. I can't argue that he wasn't hurt because I think he was, but IMHO the solution for hurt isn't to hurt back.

You are right the solution for hurt isn't to hurt back. He made a mistake.  He has said he didn't mean to hurt her and regrets the hurt.

Her response three weeks later?  Still trying to hurt him.  Maybe Andi needs to hear your words too.  Nick has stopped talking about Andi, maybe one day soon she will do the same.

[timfan]

Maybe when interviewers stop asking about nick then she will let it go she does not bring him up the people who do the interviews do

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