Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread

[MiaHawk]

Ok, let me ponder what some of you have suggested: That Andi needed to have sex with Nick in order to know if she was making love to Nick or simply having sex with Nick...  
1 Mississippi-2 Mississippi-3-   
**edited**  You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?
It just seems like a really crappy thing to do to a guy who you know is in love with you and who has told you he wants to marry you.  I t just seems like a crappy thing to do to a guy who will propose to you in a few days.  I just seems like a reckless thing to do a show where your every move is recorded and catalogued.  I just seems like a reckless thing to do knowing that your family and the family of that guy you claim to love will be gathered around the tv watching this thing unfold.  

If you want the world to think you're classy, then behave with class.
If you want to seize the moment and live like there will be no consequences for your actions, don't be shocked when there are.
If you know you've done something that you regret, and you think that others may be negatively impacted (such as a MIL viewing party) perhaps you'd be wise to give those people a head's up that it may not be smooth sailing and that a charity event might be better held on a different night.
If you know you have skeletons in your closet, don't hold an open house on national tv without first doing a cleansing.
You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.  Karma is a bitch.

[Lucas15]

So the choice to have to do it on her engagement day.  That was Andi.

I thought some of the sleuthers here had determined that Andi let Nick go the day before the FRC. As I recall the discussion it rained the day before and it was raining the day Andi met with Nick. The next day was the FRC.

Yes, the sleuthers here said that...

Thanks - that's what I remembered as well but it's always good to know another set of eyes saw the same thing. That "rainy day" would have been after the MTP and LCD dates, and the day that Neli Lane would come by and rings would be selected; otherwise it would be an "off" day with the FRC the next day. Because the scene with Nick was indoors it didn't matter that it was raining and they couldn't have had the FRC anyway that day because of the weather.

This doesn't change some of the excellent observations in ironcat's post upthread.

[Lucas15]

I don't know, I was responding to IC saying that she had to let Nick go on her engagement day, so that might have accounted for her demeanor in dumping Nick.  I really don't know if it was the same day or the day before.

I don't think what ironcat suggests about Andi's demeanor and why she had reason to feel that way is changed in any way based on what day she met with Nick. No matter what day she did it she was still facing the same set of issues.

[Lucas15]

You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?

Do you think Nick would have stopped at that if it got that far?

In fact does anyone think that Nick was merely a passive "partner" and not anxious to seal the deal with Andi if given the chance?

[Ash2214]

You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?

Do you think Nick would have stopped at that if it got that far?

In fact does anyone think that Nick was merely a passive "partner" and not anxious to seal the deal with Andi if given the chance?

Thanks for saying that. It could certainly fall in line with what you said earlier, Lucas. If you watch the break up scene, Andi puts heavy emphasis on her words when she says, "you think I took it too far?" We weren't in that suite with them. For all we know, Andi could have told him that she didn't think it would be a good idea and Nick said it was fine with him and they slept together. For all we know, Nick could have pursued having sex more than Andi did. For all we know, Andi could have pursued it more. We don't know, but I just find it humorous that so many people think Andi was the one who initiated it and so forth. We don't know and thankfully, we won't ever know.

[sdmom]

Ok, let me ponder what some of you have suggested: That Andi needed to have sex with Nick in order to know if she was making love to Nick or simply having sex with Nick...  
1 Mississippi-2 Mississippi-3-   
**edited** You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?
It just seems like a really crappy thing to do to a guy who you know is in love with you and who has told you he wants to marry you.  I t just seems like a crappy thing to do to a guy who will propose to you in a few days.  I just seems like a reckless thing to do a show where your every move is recorded and catalogued.  I just seems like a reckless thing to do knowing that your family and the family of that guy you claim to love will be gathered around the tv watching this thing unfold.  

If you want the world to think you're classy, then behave with class.
If you want to seize the moment and live like there will be no consequences for your actions, don't be shocked when there are.
If you know you've done something that you regret, and you think that others may be negatively impacted (such as a MIL viewing party) perhaps you'd be wise to give those people a head's up that it may not be smooth sailing and that a charity event might be better held on a different night.
If you know you have skeletons in your closet, don't hold an open house on national tv without first doing a cleansing.
You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.  Karma is a bitch.

I really love your post!! 

[soccermom333]

It is a valid point!    On the other hand, how would this board react if Nick described Andi as a word that rhymes with "itch"?  He would be tarred and feathered pretty quickly IMO.

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.

I think a lead can answer "I took each relationship separately and tried to let myself experience all that each man had to offer. When I really looked into my heart, I knew that I loved F1 - that my feelings were deeper and stronger for him, even thought I cared deeply for F2 as well."

But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

Exactly. Nick says Jodi is great and wishes them well while simultaneously doing more than any f2 in the history of this show to break them up and humiliate her live on camera. He is just so manipulative in my eyes, it's obscene.  

Thanks Alanna for saying what a lot of us are thinking. Josh and Andi can say AND feel whatever they want. I don't blame them one bit. Nick did a very crappy thing to both Josh and Andi. Period. IMHO   

Happy Josh and Andi are so happy.... Peace.   

[Sprite]

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.



But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

I respectfully disagree.  When Andi let Nick go the morning of the FRC, she gave him arguments against their relationship rather than being straight up and telling Nick that she was in love with Josh.  That left Nick stewing on the idea that there was room to change her mind.  He stewed on that for 10 weeks.  If you read Nick's letter to Andi, you'll see reference to Andi telling Nick that while life with Nick would be good, it wouldn't be great.  He thought he could deliver "great".  What Nick needed to be told at the very start of that conversation was "I'm in love with Josh." rather than a list a reasons why it wasn't Nick.

TPTB worked with what they had, as they always do.  They exploited it, added fuel to the fire and waited for the explosion, but I sincerely believe that this could have ended with a very different ATFR had Andi handled letting Nick go differently.

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC.  Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto.  So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home.  Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world?  And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action.  He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO.  Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago?  This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

I think the bolded might apply to Andi as well.

[happygolucky]

I decided to give a look in this thread despite promising myself to ignore Andi all together, since I'm aware discussion still goes around Nick's infamous "revelation" ... classless, inappropriate, hurtful ... call it whatever you like ... I think sooner than later it needs its rest.

So I've decided to write my opinion once and for all, everything I've never written before directly - and I do it here:

I do believe Nick had every right in his "love-story" about his relationship to ask whatever he wanted ... and too bad it was on TV (but so was his whole story, his life, his heartbreak,...),
so ...since this is Andi&Josh discussion thread ... I would say ... yes, concerning the couple ... Nick was classless and inappropriate ... and i would agree with:

Nick did a very crappy thing to both Josh and Andi.  Period. IMHO

there are no excuses for that.

That said, voicing "my Nick defense":
I don't blame Andi for breaking up with Nick the day she did, when is not relevant, I don't blame Andi for sleeping with him, she can do whatever she wants and only has to answer to herself and God (if she believes in one), I don't blame Andi for leading and misleading since it is a "job of a lead" and that's clear to all, I don't blame Andi for being cold at ATFR and respond to Nick the way she did and continues to [when he is mentioned] ...
so ... what do I blame her for? ... nothing... yesterday's news.

I do believe tho' Andi did one major mistake that was a turning point to everything.

She never acknowledged Nick's hurt, hurt feelings.

That's my point about her not apologizing, not that she actually needed to say sorry and that's my reason for stating she isn't a good player, not a lead ... because as a lead she was impeccable, but a player also needs to finish what the lead has guided to, she didn't conclude in the best way ... and I say that for her.

If she would acknowledge Nick's hurt ... she would behave differently and say different things on the day of the breakup and then later at ATFR, but most importantly Nick would understand in one instance ... that she played him (use whatever kinder word you feel more comfortable with if this one you don't agree with, since I make connotation that TB is a game, serious one and real, but still a game).
With that she would admit that she played a role in misleading him and subsequently hurting him ... and that's part of this game ... so nothing to blame her for ... only if she would admit it and acknowledge it.

But she didn't ... so Nick made her acknowledge it in more direct way ...
and as Mia wrote ... karma is a b****.

Some see it as Nick being manipulative and that's probably their stand and opinion they have on Nick all season ... since most never believed in his honest feelings.
For those who believe in Nick's honesty and genuine feelings ... this act can be simply seen as vindication ... of a hurt person.

It can be said it was disrespectful, but I continue to find arguments of how Andi was disrespectful to Nick just the same.
So they are even in my eyes.

Both with their share of mistakes ... I don't excuse Nick of his, as I don't excuse Andi. I just like Nick more and continue to support him.

And in all of that I leave Josh out of the discussion, because despite Andi being his fiancee, she was still in her role of a lead (a player in a game conducted by her) and she needed to take responsibility for her actions as one.

With this I'm done talking about Andi ... got all off my chest for once.

[soccermom333]

Thanks for your post Happy and for acknowledging that Nick did a crappy thing. I believe Andi could have handled the break up on the show better. Period. She even admitted that she should have told him that she was in love with Josh and that she could not live without him. This would have made the ATFR less dramatic for sure. TPTB would not have been happy though. ;)

IMO, the reason she was so "cold" at the ATFR was because it had been over two months since the show ended and she had been with her fiance Josh everyday. Of course Josh saw the letter and knew Nick contacted her. Josh was probably like "what the h***! We know Josh and Andi have said that once he put a ring on it, the show was over. Any fiance would be upset. Nick was an ex trying to make contact with Andi and disrespecting Josh in a letter by essentially asking for another chance.

Both Andi and Nick made mistakes. No doubt. I have a feeling (more than just a hunch really) the one regret Nick has over everything, is that he will never be able to be friends with Josh or Andi. Too much "bad blood" has happened.

I do think Nick is trying to erase the "label" he has or how he is being remembered from the show. That will take time.

I still wish Josh and Andi continued happiness as well as ALL the other men from the show.

Thanks again "Happy!"

[mindless]

You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?

Do you think Nick would have stopped at that if it got that far?

In fact does anyone think that Nick was merely a passive "partner" and not anxious to seal the deal with Andi if given the chance?

Of course he would have stopped if Andi had. He even told her he had no expectations of that night and I believe him. When you're in love with someone it isn't about sex, that's just a bonus. He could have waited a week for that bonus, I'm sure. Andi, however, knew it was now or never and I guess she didn't want never. Good for her, but not so good for him.

[luvlady345]

You mean she couldn't have just rolled around with him scantily clothed to get in touch with her feelings?

Do you think Nick would have stopped at that if it got that far?

In fact does anyone think that Nick was merely a passive "partner" and not anxious to seal the deal with Andi if given the chance?

**edited**. Of course he would have stopped if Andi had. He even told her he had no expectations of that night and I believe him. When you're in love with someone it isn't about sex, that's just a bonus. He could have waited a week for that bonus, I'm sure. Andi, however, knew it was now or never and I guess she didn't want never. Good for her, but not so good for him.

He is speaking from a man's point of view that any healthy male who is supposedly in love with a woman would have wanted to seal the deal and would have been more than a passive partner but would have been eager......

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