Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread

[eirekay]

It is a valid point!    On the other hand, how would this board react if Nick described Andi as a word that rhymes with "itch"?  He would be tarred and feathered pretty quickly IMO.

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.

I think a lead can answer "I took each relationship separately and tried to let myself experience all that each man had to offer. When I really looked into my heart, I knew that I loved F1 - that my feelings were deeper and stronger for him, even thought I cared deeply for F2 as well."

But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

I respectfully disagree. When Andi let Nick go the morning of the FRC, she gave him arguments against their relationship rather than being straight up and telling Nick that she was in love with Josh. That left Nick stewing on the idea that there was room to change her mind. He stewed on that for 10 weeks. If you read Nick's letter to Andi, you'll see reference to Andi telling Nick that while life with Nick would be good, it wouldn't be great. He thought he could deliver "great". What Nick needed to be told at the very start of that conversation was "I'm in love with Josh." rather than a list a reasons why it wasn't Nick.

TPTB worked with what they had, as they always do. They exploited it, added fuel to the fire and waited for the explosion, but I sincerely believe that this could have ended with a very different ATFR had Andi handled letting Nick go differently.

[ironcat]

It is a valid point!    On the other hand, how would this board react if Nick described Andi as a word that rhymes with "itch"?  He would be tarred and feathered pretty quickly IMO.

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.

I think a lead can answer "I took each relationship separately and tried to let myself experience all that each man had to offer. When I really looked into my heart, I knew that I loved F1 - that my feelings were deeper and stronger for him, even thought I cared deeply for F2 as well."

But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

I respectfully disagree.  When Andi let Nick go the morning of the FRC, she gave him arguments against their relationship rather than being straight up and telling Nick that she was in love with Josh.  That left Nick stewing on the idea that there was room to change her mind.  He stewed on that for 10 weeks.  If you read Nick's letter to Andi, you'll see reference to Andi telling Nick that while life with Nick would be good, it wouldn't be great.  He thought he could deliver "great".  What Nick needed to be told at the very start of that conversation was "I'm in love with Josh." rather than a list a reasons why it wasn't Nick.

TPTB worked with what they had, as they always do.  They exploited it, added fuel to the fire and waited for the explosion, but I sincerely believe that this could have ended with a very different ATFR had Andi handled letting Nick go differently.

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC. Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto. So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home. Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world? And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action. He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO. Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago? This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

[dw_a_mom]

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.



But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

I respectfully disagree.  When Andi let Nick go the morning of the FRC, she gave him arguments against their relationship rather than being straight up and telling Nick that she was in love with Josh.  That left Nick stewing on the idea that there was room to change her mind.  He stewed on that for 10 weeks.  If you read Nick's letter to Andi, you'll see reference to Andi telling Nick that while life with Nick would be good, it wouldn't be great.  He thought he could deliver "great".  What Nick needed to be told at the very start of that conversation was "I'm in love with Josh." rather than a list a reasons why it wasn't Nick.

TPTB worked with what they had, as they always do.  They exploited it, added fuel to the fire and waited for the explosion, but I sincerely believe that this could have ended with a very different ATFR had Andi handled letting Nick go differently.

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC.  Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto.  So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home.  Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world?  And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action.  He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO.  Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago?  This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

I think you are right about that, Andi was not allowed to tell Nick that she was in love with Josh, because production wanted some suspense left for the FRC. They always play the "will she reject both guys?" card.

But, most definitely, Nick would have had an easier time with the break up if he had understood that she was in love with Josh, AND that she had figured that out after the FS.

[Lucas15]

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC.  Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto.  So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home.  Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world?  And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action.  He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO.  Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago?  This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

I think that's a real good suspicion. Part of the drama saved for the last minute of the final rose ceremony is viewer uncertainty of the lead's feelings for F1 even after it's obvious who F1 is. Since an early release of F2 is shown before the F1 FRC it's logical that an "I'm in love with someone else" wouldn't be allowed as a reason. Of interest when Andi broke up with Nick in the DR he actually asked her "Is this more about us or someone else?" and she didn't answer; she looked down and rather tearfully said "I'm sorry". So had Nick been astute and thinking at the time (which I don't believe he was - he was more shell shocked) he could have easily deduced that it was a lot about someone else.

Also it's debatable how "satisfying" a reason "I'm more in love with someone else" really is. It's at the very least not at all helpful for the future. If someone breaks up with me with the reason "I'm in love with someone else" I have no clue how I might grow and learn. Andi actually gave Nick a logical reason (a bad combination of personalities and cited her own shortcomings rather than Nick's).

And after all that the real question is whether Nick would have accepted any reason whatsoever no matter what she told him. He was deeply brainwashed because the producers played to his ego (eg the only great thing she's done is keep me around) and for Nick to have accepted the breakup he had to come to grips with the blow to his ego and nothing I saw during filming makes me to believe that would have been an easy thing for him to do. Let's face it; she broke up with him in the DR, declined to meet with him once back in the US, got a letter from him to which she never responded and he still might have been harboring the hope that she would pull a Mesnick. I'm not sure that anything short of a forward Mesnick with 1 1/2 twists would have satisfied Nick.

[stuckinsc]

It is a valid point!    On the other hand, how would this board react if Nick described Andi as a word that rhymes with "itch"?  He would be tarred and feathered pretty quickly IMO.

I think he pretty much did even if he didn't use that word specifically.  Come on now...cold, unfeeling, unsympathetic, IJS.

I think a lead can answer "I took each relationship separately and tried to let myself experience all that each man had to offer. When I really looked into my heart, I knew that I loved F1 - that my feelings were deeper and stronger for him, even thought I cared deeply for F2 as well."

But she did say all those type of things during AFR before Nick "asked".   She said her relationship with him was great and there was nothing wrong with it or Nick but that it came down to having something greater with Josh.  The only think she couldn't/wouldn't say is that she was "in" love with Nick and that's what set him off.  Anything short of her telling him that she was in love with him would have ended the same way.  

Exactly. Nick says Jodi is great and wishes them well while simultaneously doing more than any f2 in the history of this show to break them up and humiliate her live on camera. He is just so manipulative in my eyes, it's obscene.  

Your right he DID. Past tense. He has not mentioned Andi or Josh since August 7th. He did not respond to an invite to be part of a bachelor auction in Canada. He tweets about BiP, but other than that not much.

Andi is the one who is making this drag on now. She is the one making snide comments and liking less than positive tweets.

Seems people asked Nick to let it go, for over 13 days now, he has. Andi is the one who keeps answering the question. I have seen reporters ask the same question again and again and when they get a no response or a Josh and I are happy and ready to get married, then the Nick question would end. People keep bringing it up.

So can we now ask for Andi to move on and just be happy about her fiance?

[stuckinsc]

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC.  Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto.  So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home.  Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world?  And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action.  He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO.  Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago?  This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

I think that's a real good suspicion. Part of the drama saved for the last minute of the final rose ceremony is viewer uncertainty of the lead's feelings for F1 even after it's obvious who F1 is. Since an early release of F2 is shown before the F1 FRC it's logical that an "I'm in love with someone else" wouldn't be allowed as a reason. Of interest when Andi broke up with Nick in the DR he actually asked her "Is this more about us or someone else?" and she didn't answer; she looked down and rather tearfully said "I'm sorry". So had Nick been astute and thinking at the time (which I don't believe he was - he was more shell shocked) he could have easily deduced that it was a lot about someone else.

Also it's debatable how "satisfying" a reason "I'm more in love with someone else" really is. It's at the very least not at all helpful for the future. If someone breaks up with me with the reason "I'm in love with someone else" I have no clue how I might grow and learn. Andi actually gave Nick a logical reason (a bad combination of personalities and cited her own shortcomings rather than Nick's).

And after all that the real question is whether Nick would have accepted any reason whatsoever no matter what she told him. He was deeply brainwashed because the producers played to his ego (eg the only great thing she's done is keep me around) and for Nick to have accepted the breakup he had to come to grips with the blow to his ego and nothing I saw during filming makes me to believe that would have been an easy thing for him to do. Let's face it; she broke up with him in the DR, declined to meet with him once back in the US, got a letter from him to which she never responded and he still might have been harboring the hope that she would pull a Mesnick. I'm not sure that anything short of a forward Mesnick with 1 1/2 twists would have satisfied Nick.

As you have stated, we don't really know.  You all see Nick as aggressive and egotistical.  So maybe nothing would have been enough.  Some of us see a caring man, who Andi encouraged to act the way he did.  She was so happy he was such a "man" when he acted in ways that made the other men angry.  Andi kept Nick to the end, yes she has to keep someone, but she kept a man who had described their lives together who told her deeply and purely that he loved her.  She could have kept Brian, Marcus or Chris S.  

IMO, she needed an engagement at the end of this.  She was not ending without an engagement, TPTB wanted it after JPG.  So she kept Nick because she could deliver the proposal if Josh wouldn't give it to her.  In keeping the man who would be most hurt, she should have shown more compassion.  Again, IMO.

For now, some suppose Nick would have never given up.  I suppose if Andi would have been kind, showed some compassion that Nick would have reacted differently.  

But, truly we will never know.

[Sable]

It's just a hunch, but I suspect that the producers don't let the lead, when they have been given permission to send the F2 home early, tell the rejected suitor that they are in love with their F1, because it is something that they aren't supposed to reveal until the FRC.  Emily didn't tell Arie she was in love with Jef either, and I don't think Ali told Chris L about Roberto.  So I bet the poor leads have to come up with some other reason for sending them home.  Maybe Andi, knowing how much of a thinker Nick was, felt he would more greatly appreciate an actual analytical answer as to why she thought they ultimately wouldn't be compatible as a couple in the real world?  And we also have no way of knowing for sure that even if she had told Nick she was in love with Josh, it would have changed his course of action.  He was in pretty deep denial/brainwash mode throughout filming IMO.  Who knows how he would have processed things once back in Chicago?  This is a guy who doesn't like, and isn't used, to losing IMO.

I think that's a real good suspicion. Part of the drama saved for the last minute of the final rose ceremony is viewer uncertainty of the lead's feelings for F1 even after it's obvious who F1 is. Since an early release of F2 is shown before the F1 FRC it's logical that an "I'm in love with someone else" wouldn't be allowed as a reason. Of interest when Andi broke up with Nick in the DR he actually asked her "Is this more about us or someone else?" and she didn't answer; she looked down and rather tearfully said "I'm sorry". So had Nick been astute and thinking at the time (which I don't believe he was - he was more shell shocked) he could have easily deduced that it was a lot about someone else.

Also it's debatable how "satisfying" a reason "I'm more in love with someone else" really is. It's at the very least not at all helpful for the future. If someone breaks up with me with the reason "I'm in love with someone else" I have no clue how I might grow and learn. Andi actually gave Nick a logical reason (a bad combination of personalities and cited her own shortcomings rather than Nick's).

And after all that the real question is whether Nick would have accepted any reason whatsoever no matter what she told him. He was deeply brainwashed because the producers played to his ego (eg the only great thing she's done is keep me around) and for Nick to have accepted the breakup he had to come to grips with the blow to his ego and nothing I saw during filming makes me to believe that would have been an easy thing for him to do. Let's face it; she broke up with him in the DR, declined to meet with him once back in the US, got a letter from him to which she never responded and he still might have been harboring the hope that she would pull a Mesnick. I'm not sure that anything short of a forward Mesnick with 1 1/2 twists would have satisfied Nick.

As you have stated, we don't really know.  You all see Nick as aggressive and egotistical.  So maybe nothing would have been enough.  Some of us see a caring man, who Andi encouraged to act the way he did.  She was so happy he was such a "man" when he acted in ways that made the other men angry.  Andi kept Nick to the end, yes she has to keep someone, but she kept a man who had described their lives together who told her deeply and purely that he loved her.  She could have kept Brian, Marcus or Chris S.  

IMO, she needed an engagement at the end of this.  She was not ending without an engagement, TPTB wanted it after JPG.  So she kept Nick because she could deliver the proposal if Josh wouldn't give it to her.  In keeping the man who would be most hurt, she should have shown more compassion.  Again, IMO.

For now, some suppose Nick would have never given up.  I suppose if Andi would have been kind, showed some compassion that Nick would have reacted differently.  

But, truly we will never know.

Bolding by me..

I so agree w/the bolded statement. I think that is part of the reason why she led Nick on so much. She had to "convince" him that he was her final choice so he would stay until the end and propose just in case Josh rejected her. Near the end of the show I remember Nick saying something along the lines that if he didn't think he was going to be the final guy, then he would leave. So I think that is why Andi slept with him in the FS and why she led him on so much with her words and actions. I get that someone has to be taken to F2, but by the same token, the lead is going to get a lot of flack for their words and actions to the F2 as well. JP got a lot of flack for things he said to Clare during their LCD. So my problem w/Andi is not that she didn't pick Nick, it was the way she treated him first when she let him go the day of the FRC and then how she treated him on ATFR. I have never seen a lead of this show be so cold and unfeeling to their F2.

[Lucas15]

So my problem w/Andi is not that she didn't pick Nick, it was the way she treated him first when she let him go the day of the FRC and then how she treated him on ATFR.  I have never seen a lead of this show be so cold and unfeeling to their F2.  

What in your opinion constituted bad treatment when Andi first let Nick go in the DR?

[mindless]

For now, some suppose Nick would have never given up.  I suppose if Andi would have been kind, showed some compassion that Nick would have reacted differently.  

But, truly we will never know.

I agree. Maybe I'm just stupid taking his word for it, but he said in all interviews that it was her cold demeanor that threw him for a loop. I think if he'd felt like he was speaking to the woman he fell in love with, instead of an ice pick who was reducing him to side character, he might've just wished her well. I see people saying he never loved her, because you don't hurt the person you love, but the Andi he knew and fell in love with wasn't on stage with him that day. I wish people would go back and watch just to see how polite and respectful he was being before Andi's replies to CH's questions got his mind racing.

[eirekay]

So my problem w/Andi is not that she didn't pick Nick, it was the way she treated him first when she let him go the day of the FRC and then how she treated him on ATFR.  I have never seen a lead of this show be so cold and unfeeling to their F2.  

What in your opinion constituted bad treatment when Andi first let Nick go in the DR?

I remember discussion on these boards about the screen shots of Andi leaving what we all presumed was Nick's hotel room and that she didn't look all that broken up. IMO, Andi went into Nick's room that day ready for an argument which she, correctly, assumed was coming when she let Nick go. Being "loaded for bear" as my mother would say, she didn't go in with a very sympathetic face or attitude. IMO, Andi wasn't crying as she left because she had done the job and already moved on. I felt like it wasn't the same emphatic Andi that Chris S got a couple of days earlier.

[ironcat]

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but IMO, each reacted somewhat negatively to the behavior of the other. Had Andi been able to offer Nick the perfect rejection speech, perhaps he would have coped with his heartbreak better and not made a rash of decisions, each one of which just compounded her frustration with him, and no doubt resulted in erasing whatever compassion she might have ever had for him, long before the ATFR took place (I think this one is fact, not conjecture). And had that not happened, Andi might have been warmer on that stage, and Nick might not have felt even an inkling of the need to validate himself by embarrassing her. If, if, if. But we'll never know. It's almost getting to be a chicken/egg debate though.   

[eirekay]

I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, but IMO, each reacted somewhat negatively to the behavior of the other.  Had Andi been able to offer Nick the perfect rejection speech, perhaps he would have coped with his heartbreak better and not made a rash of decisions, each one of which just compounded her frustration with him, and no doubt resulted in erasing whatever compassion she might have ever had for him, long before the ATFR took place (I think this one is fact, not conjecture).  And had that not happened, Andi might have been warmer on that stage, and Nick might not have felt even an inkling of the need to validate himself by embarrassing her.   If, if, if.  But we'll never know.   It's almost getting to be a chicken/egg debate though.    

ITA with all your point Ironcat!

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