Re: Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 8 - HTDs - Jul 07/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* - Discussion Thread #2

[soccermom333]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well
snip for brevity

On the subject of A&R, I think Frank was Ali's perfect man and not Roberto. She fell for Roberto for real but her dream man wasn't him. Have you seen her current BF, Kevin? It's Frank's clone come back to life

I think the difference is that Andi knows exactly what's she getting into here with Josh because what I've seen/guess from her relationship with her dad and how she's been raised and brought up her whole life, it's 100% Josh and his style of family and what dynamics he has established with her all the way. The lenient/strict parent conversation said a lot to me. She's going to be the lenient parent, it doesn't even cross her mind that it would be anything but that arrangement and seeing her dad, it makes perfect sense. This is being shown as sooo, sooo similar to A&R in the show with some key differences that I hope will make all the difference in the long run in the real world.


Nick was a nice surprise that was probably really hard to give up at the end, but it's Josh she was looking for and hoping to find all along, unlike Ali who wanted Frank and had to settle for her "surprise" with Roberto. So similar and yet totally opposite at the end of the day relationships and f1s.

Great observations!   

[nutty1]

Emusha.....I am late to the party, but I have to give you huge kudos for your posts!! You have so eloquently said what so many of us think, but cannot express. I only wish Andi could read it. And as a Nick fan, I wish he could read it also. Thank you.

[Fleurdesel]

Well, maybe Andi will attend the games that she wants to go... I can see her deciding for herself..maybe Josh will go "sans Andi" sometimes and it will be perfectly fine .... We don't know....but I'm sure that if Josh and Andi are together, they will try to work it out like any couple does and compromise on some stuff...

[soccermom333]

I noticed that too, and to me it was very telling.  I also noticed that we saw Andi getting to know the Murrarys, but I didn't see how the Murrays were getting to know Andi.  Did any of them ask Andi one question about herself???  

I saw that too, where as with the other families they all tried to get to know her.  Something tells me that Andi will be the low totem on the pole in that family...will she be able to handle that??

It's on the cutting room floor. To be fair we never saw them ask any questions about what Josh and Andi had been doing.  TPTB wanted to make this all about sports.  But according to Andi's blog Andi their journey at the bachette was also discussed.

Of course, the edit room has TONS of footage we will never see.   

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[MiaHawk]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

Yup! I think it really comes down to how Andi sees herself and understands herself and how she has grown emotionally and mentally...where we are meeting her in her life's path and how much she knows about what she wants/needs to make her happy in the long haul. And if I'm totally frank...with the information we have right now with no additional information about either relationship what I would say is that Andi would want/need a man who's got both Josh's protective, traditionally manly side but also that depth of connection from Nick...I also think that if Nick brings out more of his more visibly manly side (since he's now sooo vulnerable with her) similar to how Brian was so sexy to her on the basketball court...he can show and give her the comfort and safety that she craves but in all honesty I would be curious to see if she's the kinda gal that truly does need that manly/protective traditional man or if she's going to grow out of that need as she grows more self-aware and self-assured....? I think Nick can help her grow ...right now I don't see how Josh will....but I might be wrong...I see josh and andi butting heads more so than Nick and Andi just cos of their communication style but I don't know....maybe I'm wrong

In any case I agree cant that I see a similar connection as Aliberto...between Andi & Josh. Veryyy interestingly - I do see Ali's insecurities, shortcomings and blind spots reflected in Andi... As Ali was on the show - she had images of "the perfect life" that she wanted to lead and "the perfect man"...Ali envisioned the HOT sexy man, living in cali, pursuing a life in hollywood, the fairytale spin your head kind of romance with fireworks and chemistry...she didn't contemplate what lies deeper than that under the surface like the daily little things that make people compatible would be essential - for Ali she need to learn more about what she needs in terms of a man's desired lifestyle and communications skills (rumors of raging fights between Aliberto and real differences in lifestyle interests came out around/after the breakup). Ali and Roberto didn't have a sustainable alignment beyond the initial chemistry and Roberto's protective/safety, loyal, family-oriented space at the beginning. Aliberto fell in love and it was a gift to them both to have had this love because it taught them about themselves, what they want in life and what they need in relationships and what can/can't work.

Both big failure or big success makes you think more deeply about the meaning behind that "dream guy" or "dream job" or "perfect life"...

I do believe that Nick - (as we get to know him through the way he sees things and articulates them) we meet him after learning, through successes and failures that you can't be fixated on that "dream end"/"dream wedding" "dream girl"... living the "perfect life" according to outside standards can be empty ...  that the creation of happiness is in the little things -- that the "process" and the "connection" in a relationship is the true gift for the path ahead and it's part of the wonderful process and valuable to be challenged, pushed, humbled, to grow and to be a better person...

I do think Ali and Andi similarly had this image of a life that they were infatuated with. I don't know where Andi is in terms of how much she's grown in knowing what she wants/needs in a relationship but my sense is that what Josh's family has to offer and Josh's style while awesome for now will sustain her IF and ONLY IF she is the kind of girl who doesn't crave the constant mental/emotional support and companionship, if she is ok with being in more of a traditional family dynamic with the more traditional figure head of household that will sacrifice, dedicate, be kind but also not provide much of the equal companionship. I suspect actually she's going to have to TRY and learn from trying if it's the right fit for her rather than anything else right now....

I do think Andi might also be a bit stubborn and fixated just like Jillian so it'll be interesting seeing how this will unfold...I'm looking forward to learning what Andi really is like cos to be honest I truly believe that she's learning about herself right now. During JPG's season she was very insecure and needy -- we also see her coming short of some level of emotional maturity such as her last confrontation with Eric and her feeling entitled without putting effort and craving all those ILY. She also seems to be open to very different kinds of guys - I mean really compare...JPG, Josh, Nick, Chris, Marcus, Brian, Dylan -- she has a mix of guys with completely different styles of communication, personality, interests etc. She's living and learning like all of us so it's been a good watch...

from what i see IMHO...Andi's connection with Nick brings with it the danger of being truly intimate...it softens her and makes her completely vulnerable and I think she's still holding back from truly letting herself go to that intimate space and reallyyyy connecting with him to experience the relationship it seems like the kind of connection that could strip all masks and I don't know how comfortable Andi is with that at this point and if she's even the kind of person that would want it

    Awesome, awesome, awesome post!

[emusha]

Awww so sweet of you lovely Alanna   Boards are awesome cos of the boardies so great to see you and other familiar peeps here again and to post, about life, love and this ridiculous show  :WAVEY:   

Right! Our friendships here have weathered more storms and more time than like 75% of these relationships.

One more thing on your awesome post and then I'm done- I would equate Ash's JP with Josh, not Nick. Ashley gave some interview where she said JP is 100% in charge but at the end of the day, she can quietly sneak the relationship pants on, to make sure he doesn't know, and have her way I think maybe Andi needs some Ashley-time if she has trouble with Josh! But for the most part, I think her sm/blogs are very much proclaiming to be Josh's girl through and through and that they're a unit/team so imo things are fine. It's no secret I'm madly in love with both of them (slightly sad) and I hope they make it!

LOL you know this is funny cos we do focus in on specific characteristics of these ppl we "think" we know...I was referring to JP's communication style and the ease and equal space that's between Ashley and JP when I compare him with Nick ...Ashley is a very strong personality but she's also a free spirit & comfortable in her own skin maybe even more so than Andi (I haven't gotten a clear read for Andi beyond the ADA, strong girl persona for example while Ashley was very comfortable laying all her flaws and neurosis out there totally at the risk of all the battering she received from audiences)....JP provides that space for Ashley where she can have all sorts of opinions, ideas and while Ashley says JP is in charge I find that extremely hard to believe -- they're both very smart people but IMHO I think they're brilliant at negotiating without butting heads...and JP gives the steady logical input and grounds ashley rather than them not being communicative or one of them being in charge...we saw this throughout that season and it was amazing to watch unfold

I honestly don't know Josh enough to say but from what we've seen of him -- he's a focused, stable, loyal and a very sweet generous kind guy who doesn't really seem give too much attention to processing, analyzing or dealing with emotions (he actually sometimes honestly seems confused and totally out of sorts on how to deal with them) or what he sees as "noise" I think he tunes out when he wants & he's kind of no nonsense/serious and keeps things at face value...we've seen him disengage in the house stuff or dodge some serious questions (Andi's grilling for the ILY was cute but also didn't bode very well for their communication style together- unless she can totally deploy her mind game superpowers every time). Josh also has some strong emotional reactions during the show which we see him having a very difficult time handling/processing them as well as his temperament after the show where he takes certain things seriously and seems to be fixated in his perspective/approach (social media for instance tone towards nick). I think Nick's style is more explorative, aware, engaged, intuitive, open, flexible and analytical (a bit different from JP who IMO isn't that analytical but is aware, intuitive, a bit rigid, engaged/communicative)...Josh takes things (esp emotions) and doesn't analyze or dig deep much -- at the risk of using horrible stereotypes he has a "masculine" temperament ...he doesn't get too introspective about his emotions at the cost of risking not dealing with emotional issues as they happen (for instance he seems to have bottled up some of his emotions from his baseball dreams as can be seen in his convo with Andi and from having avoided the stadium for 7 years). We might not be seeing the full Josh but that's what I see right now.

Andi is someone who needs a ton of reassurance and safety but also wants someone showering her with love and attention... that much is starkly true....she's also very intelligent (she's by far had the best F6 or more that I can think of). Andi's strong, competitive and decisive - I think this connects with both Josh's and Nick's temperaments for different reasons. She grew up with her traditional "strict" dad and was likely raised to be tough i think Josh and her share that - I think they share similar upbringings and can connect on that level. I think Nick admires these attributes in her and has similar ones + respects her for them but I do think Nick engages this side of her smoothly as an equal and communicates and shares which I think creates an intimate space between them to challenge & build on each other's strengths (note how much Nick appreciates how well they are able to have difficult conversations while other people including maybe even Josh might see Andi's style as interrogative). For Andi - this softens her up which I think is good for her and totally spins away from any chance of creating "combative" conversations similar to the one she had with Eric when he questioned her and she felt personally attacked and lashed out at him (not comfortable being vulnerable). I think Nick connecting & understanding could possibly navigate Andi's soft side cos he can bring it out in her.

On the other hand, I really don't know her well enough to say but she herself says in JPG's season & even now how deep down she's a "total softie" that she has a very vulnerable and soft side to her. IMO she keeps this protected under that facade.... My fear is that she's still craving a safety and comfort space for her soft side but keeping that part of here deeply hidden under the "strong Andi" facade. I don't think she's used to or knows how to expose this part of her and we saw that clearly throughout JPG's show where she was very skittish with not being in control of her situation...

I don't think vulnerability is Andi's strong suit (no judgement at all) and that's what Eric called her out on - she's not openly communicative and comfortable letting people in to her emotions she just affirms theirs ("good" "aww" etc.) rather than opening up and being vulnerable which I think would naturally be called for with Nick's style. I don't know how Josh will be able to read her, truly connect with her emotionally and mentally and navigate her various temperaments on that intimate level based on his own style. i do think he'd be able to lavish her with attention, support and love as his wife who he adores and she might open up but is he able/willing to engage her on an emotional/mental level?...interestingly with Andi's joking admission she might be able to navigate his rigidness through what she considers herself good at "mind games" but even so I see them both butting heads a bit. What I've been wondering is what she needs and prioritizes more -- does she want the attention and love that Josh can shower without questions or does she want an intimate partner-in-crime relationship that challenges and exposes her.

The fact that she likes control makes me think that Nick's natural, vulnerable, intimate connection scares her and I don't think she's even touched the barrier of how it could actually be between them in their relationship cos she's too scared to truly go there and explore the possibility it's like uncharted territory for her (she's not truly opened up with anyone else for that matter - maybe she'll open up more soon after the ILY professions)....I see her holding back from all the guys and resisting. she hasn't jumped yet and I think she's still staying in her head and scared especially with Nick because it's already at that very intimate level with him...rather than going vulnerable to explore how the relationship fits for all sides of her I think she's still grappling with some preconceptions and expectations for her "perfect relationship/man".

Nick as I have written before is someone who's had his heart broken and learnt a lot that what's at face value is not enough for him...and that true connection is what he needs. He told his sister that the connection he has with Andi is there and that it keeps growing -- that's why he feels so great about the relationship not any of Andi's attributes but their connection and he keeps saying that over and over... he even tells Andi that he can feel her falling just like she said she can feel what he's thinking...Nick is quite mature emotionally and that brings out certain things in Andi. He also knows that he has to be brave, even wildly brazen and confident to allow for a love connection (seems in the past he wasn't ready to jump in and had maybe learnt from that experience). Funnily enough I think Nick's brazen approach to relationships has him saying things like they are and not tiptoeing around the very fragile and sensitive issue of dating one girl with his friends...i.e. resulting in how much guys got mad at him. At the same time -- I truly don't know if Andi is ever going to crave for what Nick wants in intimacy or even if she can give him what he needs. Does *she* go deep and is able to? can she articulate and thrive in that intimate space or does that drain her? depends on who she is now and what her path now is at....

ETA: If she is at this cusp - I think she can let herself fall in whichever direction and let the wave carry her to the guy....We'll see how it will go from here but I wouldn't be surprised if she goes for a "safe" choice risk wise because of how much she craves security and safety rather than the possibility of rejection and intense intimacy.... but in either case who knows about the longevity of this I think either of these relationships have a chance to flourish and grow and for the people to grow together and be happy together as they learn to love and know each other better as long us they're dedicated to that process. I just hope whomever she's choosing she's not shortchanging herself from what she needs* and only she knows what that truly is at that point in her life

[2observe]

Sorry for a bit of a ramble but a few things became clear to me after HTD.... read on if you'd like

hmm...it did look to me like Andi was concerned about Josh's priorities and how much the family would take center stage. I think that's fairly normal but it's also something that will change over time - it's obvious that a SO changes someone's life and the priority given to other family members and friends will definitely shift. Given how intimately close the siblings have been to a point that Josh was like a second father figure with a lot of responsibility - it is natural that this question would come up. For Josh particularly this is a big question because the family does do things together and there is a bit of pressure on her to shape her life into the unit that currently exissts...I do think josh and the fam are a bit set in their ways...

To me actually the sad part was watching the heartbreak Josh had to go through with his Baseball career because that seems to have truly deflated him but he seemed to find joy in giving love and support to his family which is sweet and seems to have refocused him on the most important things in life. This is a very real life experience and I'm glad they showed it and we got to understand him better cos so far he was not really clear for me. I hope he is able to find happiness and create a path that fulfills him wether it be his role as a sibling and future husband or beyond. I do hope that he has come to terms with his baseball dreams not being realized...cos that would be sad for him and might bring discontent into the relationship. His role so far in his family more than anything shows how dedicated, loyal and generous he is and I'm so glad we so these parts of him and understand him better. This kind of explains why he's so serious sometimes - with the responsibilities he's had it's understandable. I do think he has a kind heart in the end (as do all F3)

Whether Andi and Josh are a good match - I think the HTD gave a lot more clues than ever before why she might want to be with him and WHO he is as a person. Specifically for Josh's style -- I am not sure how they would be able to handle conflicts given Josh isn't very communicative and articulate. I keep thinking about HOW different Nick and Josh are and then I think - we don't know Andi as well as we think we do and particularly what she needs in a relationship. I wonder what she is thinking in that regard in the short term and in the long term when weighing the two guys and their differences.

I think that Nick is a family guy and from what his mom said and everything we have seen of him so far he's very loyal and been there for her as a mom that's had to raise 11 kids -- being the eldest boy must play a big role in that (similar to Josh). I do think that Nick is similarly responsible and he's also very affectionate, loving, caring, dedicated and a real romantic (his dreams for a relationship is modeled after his own parents). However, I do think what Nick has to offer is very different from Josh. Nick seems to offer more of a partner-in-crime love style specifically for Andi's connection with him -- with the affection/caring, understanding, communication, vulnerability, mutual respect and opportunity to grow together. Nick's connection has the passionate/romantic component but it seems to be the kind that would evolve and challenge them both...and also possibly put them both in a very vulnerable/exposed space. Nick is the kind of person who we've gotten to get to know very well if we look beyond the hilariously bad music and tacky edit..he's very aware of his surroundings but most of all of himself, and IMHO he's a constant adopter. I think Nick's love makes Andi feel giddy, happy, but more than anything it has her feeling "seen fully" i.e. fully exposed. I think that might be scary/challenging depending on what she wants out of life...Nick is an analytical person that looks beyond the surface and unpacks things (IMHO he resembles JP in his temperament and style a bit) while Josh is more of a traditionally "manly man" who I think is a lot more closed off emotionally (IMHO he's more like Roberto who has a bit more of a traditional lifestyle approach).

I think what Josh has to offer is the more traditional male role of fiercely loyal protector, passionate lover & on the practical side more of strong serious family man who may not be as communicative but is dedicated...this is very diff from the partner-in-crime approach of Nick who I think with Andi is more of a companion and a strong communicator. I do think that Josh is a bit more set in terms of his approach to life and I think his role in his sibling's life is going to be center stage with Andi joining them on the stage as opposed to andi and josh creating a life of their own without too much intimate living with his family ....so I do think Andi would be choosing what kind of guy she needs/wants for her life..what kind of life she imagines for herself and her family.

Andi's totally into a "MAN" - to her that's physical poweress, control of his situation and mastery...interestingly...Josh and Nick offer that from veryyy different angles.
Both are super athletic though one has a bigger build & the "jock persona"
Both are forward with her and also vulnerable in very diff ways
Both are loyal and dedicated and have been father figures to their siblings but Nick has a more understated approach
they both have this attribute but the style they exude is totally different

I think Andi's dad is more like Josh...southern man and all
I think Andi is definitely needy and could crave for the safety of Josh's silent loyalty
But it's a true dilemma which asks her who she is as a person and who will bring the best of her out. Does she want constantly be fully seen, understood and challenged - does she want to have that emotional and mental connection that would make her fully vulnerable and totally exposed to grow and change? (echoing nick's plane video "she's like 'i'm scared sh*tless'" Or does she want to kind of protective, traditional male-female relationship that Josh might be able to offer along with his loyalty, care, kindness. How does she see her role as a wife?

I do think that Josh takes things more at face value than Nick and doesn't get too contemplative and if I'm totally frank I do think for him it's a matter of -- he's due for his next step and building a life and that's the next big thing he wants/needs to do in life is to get married....I am not sure Josh is getting too in depth about the "connection" etc. and while he sees all of Andi's qualities and is ready to wed her... I think due to the physical attraction, maybe both him and Andi are keeping it at surface level.

For Nick - finding a soulmate is the goal even if he has to hold out for a bit - a great undeniable connection like he explained to Andi -- in a deeper sense... and his style is very different from Josh's

The main question is - what does Andi want and need -- and ultimately that depends on who she is as a person and I'm realizing I don't know her as well as I think I do...there's no right or wrong answer from US the audience -- it has to be informed by Andi's knowledge of herself...

  

[SueSt]

Awww so sweet of you lovely Alanna   Boards are awesome cos of the boardies so great to see you and other familiar peeps here again and to post, about life, love and this ridiculous show  :WAVEY:   

Right! Our friendships here have weathered more storms and more time than like 75% of these relationships.

One more thing on your awesome post and then I'm done- I would equate Ash's JP with Josh, not Nick. Ashley gave some interview where she said JP is 100% in charge but at the end of the day, she can quietly sneak the relationship pants on, to make sure he doesn't know, and have her way I think maybe Andi needs some Ashley-time if she has trouble with Josh! But for the most part, I think her sm/blogs are very much proclaiming to be Josh's girl through and through and that they're a unit/team so imo things are fine. It's no secret I'm madly in love with both of them (slightly sad) and I hope they make it!

LOL you know this is funny cos we do focus in on specific characteristics of these ppl we "think" we know...I was referring to JP's communication style and the ease and equal space that's between Ashley and JP when I compare him with Nick ...Ashley is a very strong personality but she's also a free spirit & comfortable in her own skin maybe even more so than Andi (I haven't gotten a clear read for Andi beyond the ADA, strong girl persona for example while Ashley was very comfortable laying all her flaws and neurosis out there totally at the risk of all the battering she received from audiences)....JP provides that space for Ashley where she can have all sorts of opinions, ideas and while Ashley says JP is in charge I find that extremely hard to believe -- they're both very smart people but IMHO I think they're brilliant at negotiating without butting heads...and JP gives the steady logical input and grounds ashley rather than them not being communicative or one of them being in charge...we saw this throughout that season and it was amazing to watch unfold

I honestly don't know Josh enough to say but from what we've seen of him -- he's a focused, stable, loyal and a very sweet generous kind guy who honestly doesn't really give too much attention emotions or what he sees as "noise" I think he tunes out when he wants & he's kind of no nonsense/serious and keeps things at face value...we've seen him disengage in the house stuff or dodge some serious questions (Andi's grilling for the ILY was cute but also didn't bode very well for their communication style together- unless she can totally deploy her mind game superpowers every time). I think Nick's style is more explorative, aware, engaged, intuitive, open and analytical (a bit different from JP who IMO isn't that analytical but is aware, intuitive, a bit rigid, engaged/communicative)...Josh takes things (esp emotions) and doesn't analyze or dig deep much -- at the risk of using horrible stereotypes he has a "masculine" temperament ...he doesn't get too introspective about his emotions at the cost of risking not dealing with emotional issues as they happen (for instance he seems to have bottled up some of his emotions from his baseball dreams as can be seen in his convo with Andi and from having avoided the stadium for 7 years). We might not be seeing the full Josh but that's what I see right now.

Andi is someone who needs a ton of reassurance and safety but also wants someone showering her with love and attention... that much is starkly true....she's also very intelligent (she's by far had the best F6 or more that I can think of). Andi's strong, competitive and decisive - I think this connects with both Josh's and Nick's temperaments for different reasons. She grew up with her traditional "strict" dad and was likely raised to be tough i think Josh and her share that - I think they share similar upbringings and can connect on that level. I think Nick admires these attributes in her and has similar ones + respects her for them but I do think Nick engages this side of her smoothly as an equal and communicates and shares which I think creates an intimate space between them to challenge & build on each other's strengths (note how much Nick appreciates how well they are able to have difficult conversations while other people including maybe even Josh might see Andi's style as interrogative). For Andi - this softens her up which I think is good for her and totally spins away from any chance of creating "combative" conversations similar to the one she had with Eric when he questioned her and she felt personally attacked and lashed out at him (not comfortable being vulnerable). I think Nick connecting & understanding could possibly navigate Andi's soft side cos he can bring it out in her.

On the other hand, I really don't know her well enough to say but she herself says in JPG's season & even now how deep down she's a "total softie" that she has a very vulnerable and soft side to her. IMO she keeps this protected under that facade.... My fear is that she's still craving a safety and comfort space for her soft side but keeping that part of here deeply hidden under the "strong Andi" facade. I don't think she's used to or knows how to expose this part of her and we saw that clearly throughout JPG's show where she was very skittish with not being in control of her situation...

I don't think vulnerability is Andi's strong suit (no judgement at all) and that's what Eric called her out on - she's not openly communicative and comfortable letting people in to her emotions she just affirms theirs ("good" "aww" etc.) rather than opening up and being vulnerable which I think would naturally be called for with Nick's style. I don't know how Josh will be able to read her, truly connect with her emotionally and mentally and navigate her various temperaments on that intimate level based on his own style. i do think he'd be able to lavish her with attention, support and love as his wife who he adores and she might open up but is he able/willing to engage her on an emotional/mental level?...interestingly with Andi's joking admission she might be able to navigate his rigidness through what she considers herself good at "mind games" but even so I see them both butting heads a bit. What I've been wondering is what she needs and prioritizes more -- does she want the attention and love that Josh can shower without questions or does she want an intimate partner-in-crime relationship that challenges and exposes her.

The fact that she likes control makes me think that Nick's natural, vulnerable, intimate connection scares her and I don't think she's even touched the barrier of how it could actually be between them in their relationship cos she's too scared to truly go there and explore the possibility it's like uncharted territory for her (she's not truly opened up with anyone else for that matter - maybe she'll open up more soon after the ILY professions)....I see her holding back from all the guys and resisting. she hasn't jumped yet and I think she's still staying in her head and scared especially with Nick because it's already at that very intimate level with him...rather than going vulnerable to explore how the relationship fits for all sides of her I think she's still grappling with some preconceptions and expectations for her "perfect relationship/man".

Nick as I have written before is someone who's had his heart broken and learnt a lot that what's at face value is not enough for him...and that true connection is what he needs. He told his sister that the connection he has with Andi is there and that it keeps growing -- that's why he feels so great about the relationship not any of Andi's attributes but their connection and he keeps saying that over and over... he even tells Andi that he can feel her falling just like she said she can feel what he's thinking...Nick is quite mature emotionally and that brings out certain things in Andi. He also knows that he has to be brave, even wildly brazen and confident to allow for a love connection (seems in the past he wasn't ready to jump in and had maybe learnt from that experience). At the same time -- I truly don't know if Andi is ever going to crave for what Nick wants in intimacy or even if she can give him what he needs. Does *she* go deep and is able to? can she articulate and thrive in that intimate space or does that drain her? depends on who she is now and what her path now is at....

Wow, it just keeps coming emusha - awesome awesome awesome  

[moonchild]

Just curious, and please forgive me if it has been discussed before, but if Nick's plane conversation is real (I think it is), he said at one point that Andi told him when she let him go, that it was just too hard. What do you think she meant?

Could it be that she was finding it too hard to let herself become truly vulnerable to give Nick what he was giving her?

Great post Emusha! Thanks!

[emusha]

Just curious, and please forgive me if it has been discussed before, but if Nick's plane conversation is real (I think it is), he said at one point that Andi told him when she let him go,  that it was just too hard.  What do you think she meant?

Could it be that she was finding it too hard to let herself become truly vulnerable to give Nick what he was giving her?

Great post Emusha!   Thanks!

That might be the case -- I also don't know if she also wants/needs/is sustained by that kind of connection with someone Andi seems less flexible, adaptable and tuned in than Nick who might find that kind of relationship sustaining him, challenging him and adding to his life to make him and his life better... Andi might not want that kind of constantly dynamic relationship (this phrase was once used by Ashley as what she wants). Andi might want a stable, reliable relationship without the emotional and mental depth. I think it all depends on what she has grown to value in her life...and who she sees herself as right now...in the long run she might try it with Josh and it's a complete fit that is a relationship that sustains her or she might think otherwise....in either case it's a pretty significant decision that is either based on her self-awareness or something that'll be a huge learning experience about herself and what she needs in love/life which is beautiful in both ways

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