Re: Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 8 - HTDs - Jul 07/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* - Discussion Thread #2

[GuardianAngel]

...snipped
Given the preview, I wouldn't see surprised if any of the F3 go home next week.  If could be Josh because she still can't let herself trust him.  It could be Nick who either gives up on the process or who fell behind because Josh and Chris are just too manly and make her twitterpate.  It could be Chris as he has to catch up and Andi just doesn't see herself living in Iowa.  

I thought of this possibility awhile back. If it were Josh and Nick as the F2 remaining, and Andi let Nick go, he would assume Josh is the F1, hence the plane conversation. OTOH if she really didn't feel 100% with either one, IMO she would choose someone, just to have that notoriety and milk it for all she can. Those are just my opinions from knowing her on JPG's season, she's probably figured out all her options long ago.

[emusha]

I think if Frank had stayed....

Ali & Frank vs. Ali & Roberto would have been the F2

We know Ali might have gone with Frank but we don't know for sure...at that point she had a very good chance of going with Roberto depending on what she felt like she needed at the time i.e. image of perfect man/life etc. Plus Frank was emotionally unavailable so it's very difficult to compare with Nick and Josh being completely emotionally available.

Andi & dad's dynamic and how lenient she'll want to be makes me think she actually might want a more equal space in her marriage and family than she's experienced in the past. We do know that Josh is a leader, has strong opinions like Andi which he voices quite seriously and it's not clear how able/willing he would be to have constant negotiation/re-negotiation communication...I have no idea how their dynamic will be.
Nick's parent's relationship seems to have a completely different style... I'm curious and very intrigued what Andi will pick and whether/how that will sustain her in the long haul.

I wonder if neither of these guys is the one for her after all given what she needs or would that be raising her standards too high?

We truly saw the scene totally, completely, polarly opposite

I do think Josh isn't a huge negotiator. We will have to see how much his protectiveness/stability/loyalty wins over her need to be right/in charge/etc. If she wants to "win" with him, it's going to be in a nice, sweet roundabout way and not rushing in like bull towards a red scarf because that won't work with what we've seen so far imo.

BTW, I'm sooo happy you're back to posting. I missed you! I was selfishly hoping you'd be a Jodi fan but this is fun too I tease!! Stay for a long, long time, please!

Awww so sweet of you lovely Alanna   Boards are awesome cos of the boardies so great to see you and other familiar peeps here again and to post, about life, love and this ridiculous show  :WAVEY:   

[emusha]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

Yup! I think it really comes down to how Andi sees herself and understands herself and how she has grown emotionally and mentally...where we are meeting her in her life's path and how much she knows about what she wants/needs to make her happy in the long haul. And if I'm totally frank...with the information we have right now with no additional information about either relationship what I would say is that Andi would want/need a man who's got both Josh's protective, traditionally manly side but also that depth of connection from Nick...I also think that if Nick brings out more of his more visibly manly side (since he's now sooo vulnerable with her) similar to how Brian was so sexy to her on the basketball court...he can show and give her the comfort and safety that she craves but in all honesty I would be curious to see if she's the kinda gal that truly does need that manly/protective traditional man or if she's going to grow out of that need as she grows more self-aware and self-assured....? I think Nick can help her grow ...right now I don't see how Josh will....but I might be wrong...I see josh and andi butting heads more so than Nick and Andi just cos of their communication style but I don't know....maybe I'm wrong
...

I do believe that Nick - (as we get to know him through the way he sees things and articulates them) we meet him after learning, through successes and failures that you can't be fixated on that "dream end"/"dream wedding" "dream girl"... living the "perfect life" according to outside standards can be empty ...  that the creation of happiness is in the little things -- that the "process" and the "connection" in a relationship is the true gift for the path ahead and it's part of the wonderful process and valuable to be challenged, pushed, humbled, to grow and to be a better person...

...

from what i see IMHO...Andi's connection with Nick brings with it the danger of being truly intimate...it softens her and makes her completely vulnerable and I think she's still holding back from truly letting herself go to that intimate space and reallyyyy connecting with him to experience the relationship it seems like the kind of connection that could strip all masks and I don't know how comfortable Andi is with that at this point and if she's even the kind of person that would want it

Thanks for your two posts you totally summed up everything I've been wanting to say.  Up until now I have been torn between Josh and Nick for Andi because they both scratch a different itch (sorry for this, couldn't think of anything esoteric to call "it".)  Totally agree in all your musings.   I have, albeit spoiled, kept my mind open and promised will not pick a team until HTDs.  I promised to look at the whole picture, like what I see on TV, all the SMs, the edits and non-edits, including spoilers and foilers before I make up my mind.  With that said, through out the whole season my gut is pointing me towards Nick as her love connection.  I think the great love story with the 360 connection is with him and if it is not Nick in the end - I'm ok with that - but this will be the first time in the history of the show that I will be sad with the F2, and I am bracing for the heartbreak - much like I was for "Chris during Des' season"  Oh, I also see the connection with Josh, especially right in the neighborhood connection same type of family.  So I am getting ready for the heartbreak as well if he is not F1, but more so for Nick.  With that said, time to sleuth the next dates - did you notice Nick gets the romantic F3 date while Josh gets the visit the town date?  Can't wait to see the suites - the water feature is usually a tell.  My 2 cents.

If i'm completely honest my gut is asking me if our Andi is even ready for her love of her life right now and if either of these amazing guys are it....but hopefully that's not true and whomever she chooses sustains and makes her truly happy in the long haul and they can grow together in the best of wayssss despite their weaknesses and flaws

[Catdwoman50]

...snipped
Given the preview, I wouldn't see surprised if any of the F3 go home next week.  If could be Josh because she still can't let herself trust him.  It could be Nick who either gives up on the process or who fell behind because Josh and Chris are just too manly and make her twitterpate.  It could be Chris as he has to catch up and Andi just doesn't see herself living in Iowa.  

I thought of this possibility awhile back. If it were Josh and Nick as the F2 remaining, and Andi let Nick go, he would assume Josh is the F1, hence the plane conversation. OTOH if she really didn't feel 100% with either one, IMO she would choose someone, just to have that notoriety and milk it for all she can. Those are just my opinions from knowing her on JPG's season, she's probably figured out all her options long ago.  

This is one other possibility I have been entertaining lately. She picks no one because she can't decide.

[Alanna]

Awww so sweet of you lovely Alanna   Boards are awesome cos of the boardies so great to see you and other familiar peeps here again and to post, about life, love and this ridiculous show  :WAVEY:   

Right! Our friendships here have weathered more storms and more time than like 75% of these relationships.

One more thing on your awesome post and then I'm done- I would equate Ash's JP with Josh, not Nick. Ashley gave some interview where she said JP is 100% in charge but at the end of the day, she can quietly sneak the relationship pants on, to make sure he doesn't know, and have her way I think maybe Andi needs some Ashley-time if she has trouble with Josh! But for the most part, I think her sm/blogs are very much proclaiming to be Josh's girl through and through and that they're a unit/team so imo things are fine. It's no secret I'm madly in love with both of them (slightly sad) and I hope they make it!

[happygolucky]

Emusha .. thank you for finally "vocalizing" my thoughts ... beautifully written, thoughtful, respectful and both-sided ... perfect analysis of human characters.
Indeed the question lies in what Andi really wants ... what she think she needs, what kind of relationship she wants to embark on ... Both guys have great attributes ...and everything that you explained wonderfully.

Thank you also for putting down in words, what has been on my mind, but couldn't explain it, that soul-baring connection that I see Nick having with the woman of his desire - wanting to have with Andi (and in some moments I see her resilience and blocking) ... and that to me is so powerful, if only you can experience it, that kind of love, it is heartbreaking even in the process of creation ... it is all-consuming and requires both partners willingly be vulnerable, open-honest and trusting. It is not an easy relationship at all. Beautiful, but demanding, to bare it all with another human being. Not easy at all. If that is what some might have thought when wanting to compare it with a relationship with Josh. It's a heavy stuff. And if the plane video is real, I agree with Nick's statements. That could scare someone who isn't ready (yet, or might never be) or doesn't want it.

[pander3575]

I just think they showed what they wanted to show so that people would still think there was a lot of conflict between them. Many households the mothers sits in other seats beside head of household. I also think the Murrays would respect that Josh has his own family just like Nick's, Chris or Marcus.

[SueSt]

Great Analysis Emusha.  I think you've nailed it.  Nick fans are seeing the soulmate connection while Josh fans are seeing a 'perfect match'.  When Andi said in the previews, that her heart and her head want different things.  Most people assumed her heart wants Josh.  I think her heart wants Nick but her head is with Josh.  Choosing Josh is the easier path.  For me, that tight family would feel like a boa constrictor!

ahahaha Norcalgal... OMG YES!
When I was watching with my hubby last night I kept saying, "Run, Forrest, Run" (Forrest Gump reference).... I would die married to Josh!!!

[SueSt]

....
I think the problem for Andi becomes in no matter how much the physical chemistry sparks with Josh, no matter that he say FIL and finally next week ILY, she is still hesitating.  If the preview is correct that even after he says ILY, she is still having doubt then to me this is a huge red flag.  I saw it last season with Des and Brooks and have seen in it my friends.  Sometimes a guy can be perfect, but for some reason you can't let yourself fully believe.  There is this little itch, tickle, whatever you call it that keeps making you question things.  When that happens you need to listen, your subconscious is trying to tell you something.  They have physical passion galore, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Josh, he loves his family, he is a genuinely nice man and heck he is fine to look at.  But given next week will be nine weeks into the ten week process if Andi is still genuinely doubting him (not just editing trickery) she should walk away.  Something is telling her this is not right for her.  Not that Josh is wrong, but for her it isn't right. 

really good observation, stuckinsc

[Piper61]

Great Analysis Emusha.  I think you've nailed it.  Nick fans are seeing the soulmate connection while Josh fans are seeing a 'perfect match'.  When Andi said in the previews, that her heart and her head want different things.  Most people assumed her heart wants Josh.  I think her heart wants Nick but her head is with Josh.  Choosing Josh is the easier path.  For me, that tight family would feel like a boa constrictor!

ahahaha Norcalgal... OMG YES!
When I was watching with my hubby last night I kept saying, "Run, Forrest, Run" (Forrest Gump reference).... I would die married to Josh!!!

Me, too, but in a very good way.    I think it's probably safe to believe that at least three out of the four families last night were very close knit. One just happens to have a genuine sports love and a deep connection that way. It isn't for everyone, understandably. But there are probably many others who would also die to be where Andi could be.

[SueSt]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

Yup! I think it really comes down to how Andi sees herself and understands herself and how she has grown emotionally and mentally...where we are meeting her in her life's path and how much she knows about what she wants/needs to make her happy in the long haul. And if I'm totally frank...with the information we have right now with no additional information about either relationship what I would say is that Andi would want/need a man who's got both Josh's protective, traditionally manly side but also that depth of connection from Nick...I also think that if Nick brings out more of his more visibly manly side (since he's now sooo vulnerable with her) similar to how Brian was so sexy to her on the basketball court...he can show and give her the comfort and safety that she craves but in all honesty I would be curious to see if she's the kinda gal that truly does need that manly/protective traditional man or if she's going to grow out of that need as she grows more self-aware and self-assured....? I think Nick can help her grow ...right now I don't see how Josh will....but I might be wrong...I see josh and andi butting heads more so than Nick and Andi just cos of their communication style but I don't know....maybe I'm wrong

In any case I agree cant that I see a similar connection as Aliberto...between Andi & Josh. Veryyy interestingly - I do see Ali's insecurities, shortcomings and blind spots reflected in Andi... As Ali was on the show - she had images of "the perfect life" that she wanted to lead and "the perfect man"...Ali envisioned the HOT sexy man, living in cali, pursuing a life in hollywood, the fairytale spin your head kind of romance with fireworks and chemistry...she didn't contemplate what lies deeper than that under the surface like the daily little things that make people compatible would be essential - for Ali she need to learn more about what she needs in terms of a man's desired lifestyle and communications skills (rumors of raging fights between Aliberto and real differences in lifestyle interests came out around/after the breakup). Ali and Roberto didn't have a sustainable alignment beyond the initial chemistry and Roberto's protective/safety, loyal, family-oriented space at the beginning. Aliberto fell in love and it was a gift to them both to have had this love because it taught them about themselves, what they want in life and what they need in relationships and what can/can't work.

Both big failure or big success makes you think more deeply about the meaning behind that "dream guy" or "dream job" or "perfect life"...

I do believe that Nick - (as we get to know him through the way he sees things and articulates them) we meet him after learning, through successes and failures that you can't be fixated on that "dream end"/"dream wedding" "dream girl"... living the "perfect life" according to outside standards can be empty ...  that the creation of happiness is in the little things -- that the "process" and the "connection" in a relationship is the true gift for the path ahead and it's part of the wonderful process and valuable to be challenged, pushed, humbled, to grow and to be a better person...

I do think Ali and Andi similarly had this image of a life that they were infatuated with. I don't know where Andi is in terms of how much she's grown in knowing what she wants/needs in a relationship but my sense is that what Josh's family has to offer and Josh's style while awesome for now will sustain her IF and ONLY IF she is the kind of girl who doesn't crave the constant mental/emotional support and companionship, if she is ok with being in more of a traditional family dynamic with the more traditional figure head of household that will sacrifice, dedicate, be kind but also not provide much of the equal companionship. I suspect actually she's going to have to TRY and learn from trying if it's the right fit for her rather than anything else right now....

I do think Andi might also be a bit stubborn and fixated just like Jillian so it'll be interesting seeing how this will unfold...I'm looking forward to learning what Andi really is like cos to be honest I truly believe that she's learning about herself right now. During JPG's season she was very insecure and needy -- we also see her coming short of some level of emotional maturity such as her last confrontation with Eric and her feeling entitled without putting effort and craving all those ILY. She also seems to be open to very different kinds of guys - I mean really compare...JPG, Josh, Nick, Chris, Marcus, Brian, Dylan -- she has a mix of guys with completely different styles of communication, personality, interests etc. She's living and learning like all of us so it's been a good watch...

from what i see IMHO...Andi's connection with Nick brings with it the danger of being truly intimate...it softens her and makes her completely vulnerable and I think she's still holding back from truly letting herself go to that intimate space and reallyyyy connecting with him to experience the relationship it seems like the kind of connection that could strip all masks and I don't know how comfortable Andi is with that at this point and if she's even the kind of person that would want it

WOW emusha, such wonderful posts!!
Put so beautifully in bold...and that's why I love Nick!!
Thanks!!!

[Aunties_Love]

I think we can all agree that considering they only show us 10 minutes of what was 11 hours or so of conversations, nobody has any idea of what wasn't discussed, who didn't talk to whom, and what the focus of the actual day really was.  How they choose to edit the day IMO just reflects the particular edit they are going for with each guy.  Josh's is still (even if we are sick of it and want to hear about something else) about his being a jock and his (and now his family's) focus on sports, and can Andi fit in with that.  So that's why I think other "deeper" conversations about the future weren't included.  Of course, it's also possible that those conversations did happen but were cut out specifically because they would have been just too revealing about Andi's intentions, and given the ending away.   

I am sure there was a lot left on the cuttingroom floor from ALL the dates considering they were also trying to fit in the time devoted to Eric.

Somehow, I think even though a lot was shown of Chris's date, there was a lot of missing conversations too as there has been all season long.

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