Re: Bachelorette 10 - Andi Dorfman - Episode 8 - HTDs - Jul 07/14 *Spoilers & Sleuthing* - Discussion Thread #2

[stuckinsc]

Sorry for a bit of a ramble but a few things became clear to me after HTD.... read on if you'd like

hmm...it did look to me like Andi was concerned about Josh's priorities and how much the family would take center stage. I think that's fairly normal but it's also something that will change over time - it's obvious that a SO changes someone's life and the priority given to other family members and friends will definitely shift. Given how intimately close the siblings have been to a point that Josh was like a second father figure with a lot of responsibility - it is natural that this question would come up. For Josh particularly this is a big question because the family does do things together and there is a bit of pressure on her to shape her life into the unit that currently exissts...I do think josh and the fam are a bit set in their ways...

To me actually the sad part was watching the heartbreak Josh had to go through with his Baseball career because that seems to have truly deflated him but he seemed to find joy in giving love and support to his family which is sweet and seems to have refocused him on the most important things in life. This is a very real life experience and I'm glad they showed it and we got to understand him better cos so far he was not really clear for me. I hope he is able to find happiness and create a path that fulfills him wether it be his role as a sibling and future husband or beyond. I do hope that he has come to terms with his baseball dreams not being realized...cos that would be sad for him and might bring discontent into the relationship. His role so far in his family more than anything shows how dedicated, loyal and generous he is and I'm so glad we so these parts of him and understand him better. This kind of explains why he's so serious sometimes - with the responsibilities he's had it's understandable. I do think he has a kind heart in the end (as do all F3)
Specifically for Josh's style -- I am not sure how they would be able to handle conflicts given Josh isn't very communicative and articulate.

Whether Andi and Josh are a good match - I think the HTD gave a lot more clues than ever before why she might want to be with him and WHO he is as a person. I keep thinking about HOW different Nick and Josh are and then I think - we don't know Andi as well as we think we do and particularly what she needs in a relationship. I wonder what she is thinking in that regard in the short term and in the long term when weighing the two guys and their differences.

I think that Nick is a family guy and from what his mom said and everything we have seen of him so far he's very loyal and been there for her as a mom that's had to raise 11 kids -- being the eldest boy must play a big role in that (similar to Josh). I do think that Nick is similarly responsible and he's also very affectionate, loving, caring, dedicated and a real romantic (his dreams for a relationship is modeled after his own parents). However, I do think what Nick has to offer is very different from Josh. Nick seems to offer more of a partner-in-crime love style specifically for Andi's connection with him -- with the affection/caring, understanding, communication, vulnerability, mutual respect and opportunity to grow together. Nick's connection has the passionate/romantic component but it seems to be the kind that would evolve and challenge them both...and also possibly put them in a very vulnerable space. Nick is the kind of person who we've gotten to get to know very well if we look beyond the hilariously bad music and tacky edit..he's very aware of his surroundings but most of all of himself, and IMHO he's a constant adopter. I think Nick's love makes Andi feel giddy, happy, but more than anything it has her feeling "seen fully" i.e. fully exposed. I think that might be scary/challenging depending on what she wants out of life...Nick is an analytical person that looks beyond the surface and unpacks things (IMHO he resembles JP in his temperament and style a bit) while Josh is more of a traditionally "manly man" who I think is a lot more closed off emotionally.

I think what Josh has to offer is the more traditional male role of fiercely loyal protector, passionate lover & on the practical side more of strong serious family man who may not be as communicative but is dedicated...this is very diff from the partner-in-crime approach of Nick who I think with Andi is more of a companion and a strong communicator. I do think that Josh is a bit more set in terms of his approach to life so I do think Andi would be choosing what kind of guy she needs/wants for her life..what kind of life she imagines for herself and her family.

Andi's totally into a "MAN" - to her that's physical poweress, control of his situation and mastery...interestingly...Josh and Nick offer that from veryyy different angles.
Both are super athletic though one has a bigger build & the "jock persona"
Both are forward with her and also vulnerable in very diff ways
Both are loyal and dedicated and have been father figures to their siblings
they both have this attribute but the style they exude it with is totally different

I think Andi's dad is more like Josh...southern man and all
I think Andi is definitely needy and could crave for the safety of Josh's silent loyalty
But it's a true dilemma which asks her who she is as a person and who will bring the best of her out. Does she want constantly be fully seen, understood and challenged - does she want to have that emotional and mental connection that would make her fully vulnerable and totally exposed to grow and change? (echoing nick's plane video "she's like 'i'm scared sh*tless'" Or does she want to kind of protective, traditional male-female relationship that Josh might be able to offer along with his loyalty, care, kindness. How does she see her role as a wife?

I do think that Josh takes things more at face value than Nick and doesn't get too contemplative and if I'm totally frank I do think for him it's a matter of -- he's due for his next step and building a life and that's the next big thing he wants/needs to do in life is to get married....I am not sure Josh is getting too in depth about the "connection" etc. and while he sees all of Andi's qualities and is ready to wed her... I think due to the physical attraction, maybe both him and Andi are keeping it at surface level.

For Nick - finding a soulmate is the goal even if he has to hold out for a bit - a great undeniable connection like he explained to Andi -- in a deeper sense... and his style is very different from Josh's

The main question is - what does Andi want and need -- and ultimately that depends on who she is as a person and I'm realizing I don't know her as well as I think I do...there's no right or wrong answer from US the audience -- it has to be informed by Andi's knowledge of herself...

I love this post! You state things so wonderfully. Add in that Chris last night became a little of the in between these two, he is the big strong physical man like Josh, but did show her that he wants her to be there with him if she wants to be there. That it is her she wants, not just a wife.

I really like the Murrays and the only hesitation for me was actually Andi in the talk with Stephanie. While Stephanie was honest, we also heard MeAndI, what if I want couple things on Sunday. If you have six days for couple things and 8 months of Sundays, then what is the big deal of him having football (with her, because she is supposedly a football fan) for four months of Sundays. The Murrays are who they are, a close, tight knit family and you are either going to accept them, or not have a great life with their son. I don't think the Murrays are a true concern for Andi.

I think the problem for Andi becomes in no matter how much the physical chemistry sparks with Josh, no matter that he say FIL and finally next week ILY, she is still hesitating. If the preview is correct that even after he says ILY, she is still having doubt then to me this is a huge red flag. I saw it last season with Des and Brooks and have seen in it my friends. Sometimes a guy can be perfect, but for some reason you can't let yourself fully believe. There is this little itch, tickle, whatever you call it that keeps making you question things. When that happens you need to listen, your subconscious is trying to tell you something. They have physical passion galore, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Josh, he loves his family, he is a genuinely nice man and heck he is fine to look at. But given next week will be nine weeks into the ten week process if Andi is still genuinely doubting him (not just editing trickery) she should walk away. Something is telling her this is not right for her. Not that Josh is wrong, but for her it isn't right.

Given the preview, I wouldn't see surprised if any of the F3 go home next week. If could be Josh because she still can't let herself trust him. It could be Nick who either gives up on the process or who fell behind because Josh and Chris are just too manly and make her twitterpate. It could be Chris as he has to catch up and Andi just doesn't see herself living in Iowa.

I still see the best connection with Nick overall. They are intellectually and physically well matched. Josh is still on the physical (with what we have seen - and no I won't assume more because I am trying to go on what I see, not spoilers). Chris and she had a great week last week and she is physically really into him, I am just not sure she is ready to be the Iowa girl.

[BachfanNY]

emusha - I started and finished my lunch reading your post   

Couldn't have said it better myself. There's definitely a great connection with both Josh and Nick. I don't envy Andi's decision. And I mostly agree with your thoughts on Andi. She's a strong willed/tempered girl, but like every girl, deep down, she wants to be taken care of - but with who and how is entirely up to her. IMO, however, she has a natural chemistry/attraction to Josh that is undeniable. I think the HTD just magnified this further. The FDs will be interesting for sure!

[Rosepetal]

Something I thought was interesting was how Andi explained to Bella what an emotional connection was and then explaining in a voice over during Josh's HTD how Josh feels about baseball showing us that she does have an emotional connection to Josh. Sneaky editors.

[sdmom]

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

[soccermom333]

I just listened to Molly and Jason's pod cast. I have to agree with them. They said Andi loves Josh, and think tptb are trying to create doubt with the viewer. Jason laughed and said the best they can come up with is Josh's younger brother and traveling to his football games. They think the other guys are great, and LOVE chris the framer and think he is the next bachelor. Molly loves chris now and thinks he is so cute. She was joking and trying to talk herself into living on a farm. Jason was laughing and joking and reminded her she was married, and said don't bs the listeners you could never live on a farm where there is no lululemon around. ;) Funny stuff!

For me best surprise of the night.... How sweet Chris's Mom was and Nick's younger sister Bella... such a doll.

Can't wait until next week!! ;)

[soccermom333]

Just wanted to add some telling moments....

Andi telling Bella she has "mental" connection to Nick. Andi telling the camera about Josh's "emotional" side. All things that make you say hmmm, and question the edit.

[Alanna]

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

[emusha]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

Yup! I think it really comes down to how Andi sees herself and understands herself and how she has grown emotionally and mentally...where we are meeting her in her life's path and how much she knows about what she wants/needs to make her happy in the long haul. And if I'm totally frank...with the information we have right now with no additional information about either relationship what I would say is that Andi would want/need a man who's got both Josh's protective, traditionally manly side but also that depth of connection from Nick...I also think that if Nick brings out more of his more visibly manly side (since he's now sooo vulnerable with her) similar to how Brian was so sexy to her on the basketball court...he can show and give her the comfort and safety that she craves but in all honesty I would be curious to see if she's the kinda gal that truly does need that manly/protective traditional man or if she's going to grow out of that need as she grows more self-aware and self-assured....? I think Nick can help her grow ...right now I don't see how Josh will....but I might be wrong...I see josh and andi butting heads more so than Nick and Andi just cos of their communication style but I don't know....maybe I'm wrong

In any case I agree cant that I see a similar connection as Aliberto...between Andi & Josh. Veryyy interestingly - I do see Ali's insecurities, shortcomings and blind spots reflected in Andi... As Ali was on the show - she had images of "the perfect life" that she wanted to lead and "the perfect man"...Ali envisioned the HOT sexy man, living in cali, pursuing a life in hollywood, the fairytale spin your head kind of romance with fireworks and chemistry...she didn't contemplate what lies deeper than that under the surface like the daily little things that make people compatible would be essential - for Ali she need to learn more about what she needs in terms of a man's desired lifestyle and communications skills (rumors of raging fights between Aliberto and real differences in lifestyle interests came out around/after the breakup). Ali and Roberto didn't have a sustainable alignment beyond the initial chemistry and Roberto's protective/safety, loyal, family-oriented space at the beginning. Aliberto fell in love and it was a gift to them both to have had this love because it taught them about themselves, what they want in life and what they need in relationships and what can/can't work.

Both big failure or big success makes you think more deeply about the meaning behind that "dream guy" or "dream job" or "perfect life"...

I do believe that Nick - (as we get to know him through the way he sees things and articulates them) we meet him after learning, through successes and failures that you can't be fixated on that "dream end"/"dream wedding" "dream girl"... living the "perfect life" according to outside standards can be empty ...  that the creation of happiness is in the little things -- that the "process" and the "connection" in a relationship is the true gift for the path ahead and it's part of the wonderful process and valuable to be challenged, pushed, humbled, to grow and to be a better person...

I do think Ali and Andi similarly had this image of a life that they were infatuated with. I don't know where Andi is in terms of how much she's grown in knowing what she wants/needs in a relationship but my sense is that what Josh's family has to offer and Josh's style while awesome for now will sustain her IF and ONLY IF she is the kind of girl who doesn't crave the constant mental/emotional support and companionship, if she is ok with being in more of a traditional family dynamic with the more traditional figure head of household that will sacrifice, dedicate, be kind but also not provide much of the equal companionship. I suspect actually she's going to have to TRY and learn from trying if it's the right fit for her rather than anything else right now....

I do think Andi might also be a bit stubborn and fixated just like Jillian so it'll be interesting seeing how this will unfold...I'm looking forward to learning what Andi really is like cos to be honest I truly believe that she's learning about herself right now. During JPG's season she was very insecure and needy -- we also see her coming short of some level of emotional maturity such as her last confrontation with Eric and her feeling entitled without putting effort and craving all those ILY. She also seems to be open to very different kinds of guys - I mean really compare...JPG, Josh, Nick, Chris, Marcus, Brian, Dylan -- she has a mix of guys with completely different styles of communication, personality, interests etc. She's living and learning like all of us so it's been a good watch...

from what i see IMHO...Andi's connection with Nick brings with it the danger of being truly intimate...it softens her and makes her completely vulnerable and I think she's still holding back from truly letting herself go to that intimate space and reallyyyy connecting with him to experience the relationship it seems like the kind of connection that could strip all masks and I don't know how comfortable Andi is with that at this point and if she's even the kind of person that would want it

[Alanna]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well
snip for brevity

On the subject of A&R, I think Frank was Ali's perfect man and not Roberto. She fell for Roberto for real but her dream man wasn't him. Have you seen her current BF, Kevin? It's Frank's clone come back to life

I think the difference is that Andi knows exactly what's she getting into here with Josh because what I've seen/guess from her relationship with her dad and how she's been raised and brought up her whole life, it's 100% Josh and his style of family and what dynamics he has established with her all the way. The lenient/strict parent conversation said a lot to me. She's going to be the lenient parent, it doesn't even cross her mind that it would be anything but that arrangement and seeing her dad, it makes perfect sense. This is being shown as sooo, sooo similar to A&R in the show with some key differences that I hope will make all the difference in the long run in the real world.

Nick was a nice surprise that was probably really hard to give up at the end, but it's Josh she was looking for and hoping to find all along, unlike Ali who wanted Frank and had to settle for her "surprise" with Roberto. So similar and yet totally opposite at the end of the day relationships and f1s.

[emusha]

I think if Frank had stayed....

Ali & Frank vs. Ali & Roberto would have been the F2

We know Ali might have gone with Frank but we don't know for sure...at that point she had a very good chance of going with Roberto depending on what she felt like she needed at the time i.e. image of perfect man/life etc. Plus Frank was emotionally unavailable so it's very difficult to compare with Nick and Josh being completely emotionally available.

Andi & dad's dynamic and how lenient she'll want to be makes me think she actually might want a more equal space in her marriage and family than she's experienced in the past. We do know that Josh is a leader, has strong opinions like Andi which he voices quite seriously and it's not clear how able/willing he would be to have constant negotiation/re-negotiation communication...I have no idea how their dynamic will be.
Nick's parent's relationship seems to have a completely different style... I'm curious and very intrigued what Andi will pick and whether/how that will sustain her in the long haul.

I wonder if neither of these guys is the one for her after all given what she needs or would that be raising her standards too high?

[Alanna]

I think if Frank had stayed....

Ali & Frank vs. Ali & Roberto would have been the F2

We know Ali might have gone with Frank but we don't know for sure...at that point she had a very good chance of going with Roberto depending on what she felt like she needed at the time i.e. image of perfect man/life etc. Plus Frank was emotionally unavailable so it's very difficult to compare with Nick and Josh being completely emotionally available.

Andi & dad's dynamic and how lenient she'll want to be makes me think she actually might want a more equal space in her marriage and family than she's experienced in the past. We do know that Josh is a leader, has strong opinions like Andi which he voices quite seriously and it's not clear how able/willing he would be to have constant negotiation/re-negotiation communication...I have no idea how their dynamic will be.
Nick's parent's relationship seems to have a completely different style... I'm curious and very intrigued what Andi will pick and whether/how that will sustain her in the long haul.

I wonder if neither of these guys is the one for her after all given what she needs or would that be raising her standards too high?

We truly saw the scene totally, completely, polarly opposite

I do think Josh isn't a huge negotiator. We will have to see how much his protectiveness/stability/loyalty wins over her need to be right/in charge/etc. If she wants to "win" with him, it's going to be in a nice, sweet roundabout way and not rushing in like bull towards a red scarf because that won't work with what we've seen so far imo.

BTW, I'm sooo happy you're back to posting. I missed you! I was selfishly hoping you'd be a Jodi fan but this is fun too I tease!! Stay for a long, long time, please!

[Catdwoman50]

y'all great to hear your reactions!....that you're seeing similar things as well

emusha, I would give 1000 LIKE if I could!
Great analysis. Both Nick and Josh are great guys so it really comes down to Andi: what does she really wants in a relationship?

ITA and also "who" is she- the confident ADA or not, pretty much imo.

Yup! I think it really comes down to how Andi sees herself and understands herself and how she has grown emotionally and mentally...where we are meeting her in her life's path and how much she knows about what she wants/needs to make her happy in the long haul. And if I'm totally frank...with the information we have right now with no additional information about either relationship what I would say is that Andi would want/need a man who's got both Josh's protective, traditionally manly side but also that depth of connection from Nick...I also think that if Nick brings out more of his more visibly manly side (since he's now sooo vulnerable with her) similar to how Brian was so sexy to her on the basketball court...he can show and give her the comfort and safety that she craves but in all honesty I would be curious to see if she's the kinda gal that truly does need that manly/protective traditional man or if she's going to grow out of that need as she grows more self-aware and self-assured....? I think Nick can help her grow ...right now I don't see how Josh will....but I might be wrong...I see josh and andi butting heads more so than Nick and Andi just cos of their communication style but I don't know....maybe I'm wrong
...

I do believe that Nick - (as we get to know him through the way he sees things and articulates them) we meet him after learning, through successes and failures that you can't be fixated on that "dream end"/"dream wedding" "dream girl"... living the "perfect life" according to outside standards can be empty ...  that the creation of happiness is in the little things -- that the "process" and the "connection" in a relationship is the true gift for the path ahead and it's part of the wonderful process and valuable to be challenged, pushed, humbled, to grow and to be a better person...

...

from what i see IMHO...Andi's connection with Nick brings with it the danger of being truly intimate...it softens her and makes her completely vulnerable and I think she's still holding back from truly letting herself go to that intimate space and reallyyyy connecting with him to experience the relationship it seems like the kind of connection that could strip all masks and I don't know how comfortable Andi is with that at this point and if she's even the kind of person that would want it

Thanks for your two posts you totally summed up everything I've been wanting to say.  Up until now I have been torn between Josh and Nick for Andi because they both scratch a different itch (sorry for this, couldn't think of anything esoteric to call "it".)  Totally agree in all your musings.   I have, albeit spoiled, kept my mind open and promised will not pick a team until HTDs.  I promised to look at the whole picture, like what I see on TV, all the SMs, the edits and non-edits, including spoilers and foilers before I make up my mind.  With that said, through out the whole season my gut is pointing me towards Nick as her love connection.  I think the great love story with the 360 connection is with him and if it is not Nick in the end - I'm ok with that - but this will be the first time in the history of the show that I will be sad with the F2, and I am bracing for the heartbreak - much like I was for "Chris during Des' season"  Oh, I also see the connection with Josh, especially right in the neighborhood connection same type of family.  So I am getting ready for the heartbreak as well if he is not F1, but more so for Nick.  With that said, time to sleuth the next dates - did you notice Nick gets the romantic F3 date while Josh gets the visit the town date?  Can't wait to see the suites - the water feature is usually a tell.  My 2 cents.

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