Bachelorette 10: Edit-Storyline - *SPOILERS* - should we bother? Oooohhhh... why not? part 2

Ok gotcha on the "competition". Yes, ecouragement for both from Andi, that's what I was trying to get at. You said it better then me.

I definitely think there is enough incriminating "evidence" on either side for both Nick and Josh to feel blindsided when she picks the other one, and her F1, regardless of which guy it is, will probably be better off not watching some scenes. Even if a contestant watches the show regularly, unless they are as obsessed as we are, they are probably not going to realize the level of manipulation that goes on, and understand how sometimes "white means black and black means white". And hey, even the best of us will succumb to wishful thinking and be in denial about certain stuff when emotions take over, so I don't expect these people to be immune to it, especially while in the "bubble".

Good point about Jason and Jillian, hadn't thought about that one in a while. And she was F3! None of these makeout sessions we see are absolute proof of anything.

This is one season where I can actually believe the lead fell in love with her F2.

ironcat wrote:I definitely think there is enough incriminating "evidence" on either side for both Nick and Josh to feel blindsided when she picks the other one, and her F1, regardless of which guy it is, will probably be better off not watching some scenes.  Even if a contestant watches the show regularly, unless they are as obsessed as we are, they are probably not going to realize the level of manipulation that goes on, and understand how sometimes "white means black and black means white".  And hey, even the best of us will succumb to wishful thinking and be in denial about certain stuff when emotions take over, so I don't expect these people to be immune to it, especially while in the "bubble".

Good point about Jason and Jillian, hadn't thought about that one in a while.  And she was F3!  None of these makeout sessions we see are absolute proof of anything.

IA Ironcat - watching a couple seasons of the show does not equate to understanding or knowing how anyone would feel in the situation. You are completely devoid of contact with your regular support system, and are only being reassured by these people "producers" who you have just met and are trying to ensure you fall in love, in doing so they will tell you things to manipulate you. Being so disconnected from the outside world, constantly talking about wanting love, falling in love and why you haven't found love, makes you desperate for love, support and just the feel of another human being, no matter who that person it. In doing so you will make yourself believe that same person feels the same about you. It is Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

sbolduc wrote:

ironcat wrote:I definitely think there is enough incriminating "evidence" on either side for both Nick and Josh to feel blindsided when she picks the other one, and her F1, regardless of which guy it is, will probably be better off not watching some scenes.  Even if a contestant watches the show regularly, unless they are as obsessed as we are, they are probably not going to realize the level of manipulation that goes on, and understand how sometimes "white means black and black means white".  And hey, even the best of us will succumb to wishful thinking and be in denial about certain stuff when emotions take over, so I don't expect these people to be immune to it, especially while in the "bubble".

Good point about Jason and Jillian, hadn't thought about that one in a while.  And she was F3!  None of these makeout sessions we see are absolute proof of anything.

IA Ironcat - watching a couple seasons of the show does not equate to understanding or knowing how anyone would feel in the situation. You are completely devoid of contact with your regular support system, and are only being reassured by these people "producers" who you have just met and are trying to ensure you fall in love, in doing so they will tell you things to manipulate you. Being so disconnected from the outside world, constantly talking about wanting love, falling in love and why you haven't found love, makes you desperate for love, support and just the feel of another human being, no matter who that person it. In doing so you will make yourself believe that same person feels the same about you. It is Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.  

Can someone please explain "Stockholm Syndrome" to me? Where does it come from?  

BachfanNY wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:Vienna was overconfident as well. Her edit was similar to Courtney. I'm thinking Nick really did believe Andi changed her mind at the last minute, or at least that's how he really felt, because what they are showing the viewers, she was definitely into him. Not only by her actions, always pulling him closer to her etc, but also in her PI's where she indicates how she thought it was a turn on how he went out of his way to pay attention to her.

The lastest clip of them in the ocean is another example of how Nick can easily feel he was her favourite. There's no acting there IMO.

They always show the lead being torn on who to choose because they can see both of the remaining two as husb/wife blah blah blah. In Nick's case, I'm really wondering if she was really torn if he's the F2. Of course we'll hear "you were always the one" to the F1. That line makes the edit every season.

The edit has been interesting this season, I'm sure we'll learn a lot and look back after the FRC is over.

Reading this reminded me, in an interview, post show, (think it was Morning Blend?) Andi said that the difference between JPG season and her season was that as a contestant, she was very unaware of what was happening outside of her relationship with JP.

That said, I can see how Nick, who was encouraged by Andi, gushed repeatedly about his relationship with her, thought that he was a frontrunner. And I say a frontrunner because Nick watched previous seasons, he had to know that there would be a point where the lead connects deeply with multiple people. According to the editing, Josh or Chris never spoke to the others about how their relationship progressed with Andi so how could he really know???

So to me, as far as pre show filming is concerned, I still find Nick very naive. How could you think that the other guys not flaunting their relationship with the lead = that they don't have a rival connection to yours? And I personally don't buy the producer prodding either, I mean, I have a mind of my own, I know that there are other guys that she's connecting with, why would I be naive enough to think I 100% have this in the bag so early on?

I'm still holding out hope that Nick's cutting words on the plane video were just an emotional outlet and grasping at straws to try and make sense as to how this all played out.

Clearly, he was OVERCONFIDENT=ARROGANCE=PRIDE. The bible says" pride is the beginning of a fall", that's exactly what happened. with cocky statements like "how can she end up with Marcus if she is supposed to end up with me?" I don't care what they they think, I will lamp all of them together, they don't matter, they want to be', she is going to take hometown. About Josh " they are terrible together, Andi and I are going to be friends with Josh, and we will go to his brother games with OUR DOG MURRAY" Seriously? He was too full of himself, hence blindsided. He thought he had it in the bag so andi picking someone else in his eyes meant she changed her mind in the last minute.

I am thinking there is a reason they left all those statements, I believe Andi is going to pick up on that arrogant vibe and it's going to raise the same questions she had on episode 5 when she talked to Chris and Cody.

I have not seen an F1 put down others like that, The usual F1 are somewhat confident in what they have with the lead without dismissing the others as not enough, but they are also cautious. like Nikki, Chris S, JP Roseb and even Josh is very cautious.JMO

Rolly wrote:

Can someone please explain "Stockholm Syndrome" to me? Where does it come from?  

I personally don't think that term should be used at all, other than what it is intended for. Stockholm Syndrome is when someone for eg is held captive for years, and escapes, they then feels guilty and sorry for escaping from their captors. It was named after bank employees were held hostage in Stockholm in the 70's. The reason I'm familiar with it is because I was just hired working in a bank, and that example was used in the robbery lessons we had to attend.

^^^ Rolly- here's the origin of the term from wiki:
Stockholm syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg in Stockholm, Sweden, in which several bank employees were held hostage in a bank vault from August 23 to 28, 1973, while their captors negotiated with police. During this standoff, the victims became emotionally attached to their captors, rejected assistance from government officials at one point, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal.[11]

In this case, it's being cut off from the rest of the world, friends and family and led by producers. It causes them to act and think differently than they otherwise would. Also referred to as "the bubble."

I feel like everyone is sweeping the switcheroo on the typical F1/F2 FD aside. It seems relevant to me.  

Maggenzm wrote:

BachfanNY wrote:

GuardianAngel wrote:Vienna was overconfident as well. Her edit was similar to Courtney. I'm thinking Nick really did believe Andi changed her mind at the last minute, or at least that's how he really felt, because what they are showing the viewers, she was definitely into him. Not only by her actions, always pulling him closer to her etc, but also in her PI's where she indicates how she thought it was a turn on how he went out of his way to pay attention to her.

The lastest clip of them in the ocean is another example of how Nick can easily feel he was her favourite. There's no acting there IMO.

They always show the lead being torn on who to choose because they can see both of the remaining two as husb/wife blah blah blah. In Nick's case, I'm really wondering if she was really torn if he's the F2. Of course we'll hear "you were always the one" to the F1. That line makes the edit every season.

The edit has been interesting this season, I'm sure we'll learn a lot and look back after the FRC is over.

Reading this reminded me, in an interview, post show, (think it was Morning Blend?) Andi said that the difference between JPG season and her season was that as a contestant, she was very unaware of what was happening outside of her relationship with JP.

That said, I can see how Nick, who was encouraged by Andi, gushed repeatedly about his relationship with her, thought that he was a frontrunner. And I say a frontrunner because Nick watched previous seasons, he had to know that there would be a point where the lead connects deeply with multiple people. According to the editing, Josh or Chris never spoke to the others about how their relationship progressed with Andi so how could he really know???

So to me, as far as pre show filming is concerned, I still find Nick very naive. How could you think that the other guys not flaunting their relationship with the lead = that they don't have a rival connection to yours? And I personally don't buy the producer prodding either, I mean, I have a mind of my own, I know that there are other guys that she's connecting with, why would I be naive enough to think I 100% have this in the bag so early on?

I'm still holding out hope that Nick's cutting words on the plane video were just an emotional outlet and grasping at straws to try and make sense as to how this all played out.

Clearly, he was OVERCONFIDENT=ARROGANCE=PRIDE. The bible says" pride is the beginning of a fall", that's exactly what happened. with cocky statements like "how can she end up with Marcus if she is supposed to end up with me?" I don't care what they they think, I will lamp all of them together, they don't matter, they want to be', she is going to take hometown. About Josh " they are terrible together, Andi and I are going to be friends with Josh, and we will go to his brother games with OUR DOG MURRAY" Seriously? He was too full of himself, hence blindsided. He thought he had it in the bag so andi picking someone else in his eyes meant she changed her mind in the last minute.

I am thinking there is a reason they left all those statements, I believe Andi is going to pick up on that arrogant vibe and it's going to raise the same questions she had on episode 5 when she talked to Chris and Cody.

I have not seen an F1 put down others like that, The usual F1 are somewhat confident in what they have with the lead without dismissing the others as not enough, but they are also cautious. like Nikki, Chris S, JP Roseb and even Josh is very cautious.JMO

Nick is very confident, but also very sarcastic; he's said so himself.
I think Andi's moved forward from her conversation with Nick.

To add to the discussion on the edit. If you take away the make-out sessions, ITMs, voice overs etc. and just focus on the edit (in comparison to past seasons) there is an argument IMO, that Andi was not set on Josh (at this point) and may have been leaning to Nick.

1. "He gets me" - This is being repeated constantly, she finally says it in a non ITM/voice over to his little sister. TPTB are making sure we know they have a mental/intellectual connection, while still showing their intense physical scenes. So yes physical (ala Jason and Jillian) doesn’t mean everything, but I feel the focus in the Nick and Andi story has been on their mental/intellectual/emtional connection not physical, the physical is just on top of that, something as I had said before I was surprised to see.

2. "What type of parent will you be" - She and Nick have had conversations on how they will be as parents. We have not seen this same conversation with Josh, they probably have had a conversation I would think and hope, so why aren’t we seeing it?

3. "If you were my husband" - She says this to Nick when they are in Marseilles, discussing the issues in the house and indicating if they were married would he confide in her. Has Andi challenged Josh in this way and referred to their potential future i.e. “marriage”? I don’t remember this happening with them so please correct me if I am wrong.  

4. The extra time and Andi’s extra attention - Nick has gotten the most time with Andi, two 1-on-1s, late night rendezvous & one mini 1-on-1. He has also received a lot of Andi attention – FIR, GDR leading to extra time (even after time spent together earlier in the week), special Venice date (Josh’s dates can be argued special as well)

Now most of the above occurred before the two key moments, as others have mentioned (and I agree) which may indicate "game over" for Andi with Josh:

1. When he said he was falling in love, she absolutely lit up, completely different than with Nick IMO.  Also Andi indicating that Brussels was a great week/favourite place (Josh says he is falling in love, vs Venice an OK week, Nick says he is falling in love but Andi and Josh have the disagreement).

2. The Marseilles breakdown that we saw in the promo but not in full in the episode, to me a result of the disagreement with Josh, the real full meltdown we have seen, apart from the Eric disagreement which I think was a result of exhaustion, alcohol and pressure.

For #1 I think it could be argued that part of Venice being an "OK" week could still be attributed to Nick, as he continued to have issues with the guys, which CH alluded to in his blog, not sure I completely buy it. Also could argue that Brussels being her favourite place could be due to all the private time with Nick, not just Josh, as they did have a lot of private time together.

Despite these two potential "game over" moments, Nick still got the typical F1 FS date. I know that there is the argument that because of Josh’s background in baseball that this date had to go to him. I see what you are saying, BUT, they could have done that and then gone to the beach. To me the fact that ONLY one guy got her in a bikini, especially considering knowing how she feels about that, and that one guy was Nick (spoiled F2) means to me it was not game, set and match with Josh. This date gave Nick and Andi a lot more private time together, time without anyone hearing what they are saying, time that Chris nor Josh got at this point.

I am very interested in the last two episodes, and especially with what she says to her parents about both guys, and who gets what LCD.

sbolduc wrote:To add to the discussion on the edit. If you take away the make-out sessions, ITMs, voice overs etc. and just focus on the edit (in comparison to past seasons) there is an argument IMO, that Andi was not set on Josh (at this point) and may have been leaning to Nick.

1. "He gets me" - This is being repeated constantly, she finally says it in a non ITM/voice over to his little sister. TPTB are making sure we know they have a mental/intellectual connection, while still showing their intense physical scenes. So yes physical (ala Jason and Jillian) doesn’t mean everything, but I feel the focus in the Nick and Andi story has been on their mental/intellectual/emtional connection not physical, the physical is just on top of that, something as I had said before I was surprised to see.

2. "What type of parent will you be" - She and Nick have had conversations on how they will be as parents. We have not seen this same conversation with Josh, they probably have had a conversation I would think and hope, so why aren’t we seeing it?

3. "If you were my husband" - She says this to Nick when they are in Marseilles, discussing the issues in the house and indicating if they were married would he confide in her. Has Andi challenged Josh in this way and referred to their potential future i.e. “marriage”? I don’t remember this happening with them so please correct me if I am wrong.  

4. The extra time and Andi’s extra attention - Nick has gotten the most time with Andi, two 1-on-1s, late night rendezvous & one mini 1-on-1. He has also received a lot of Andi attention – FIR, GDR leading to extra time (even after time spent together earlier in the week), special Venice date (Josh’s dates can be argued special as well)

Now most of the above occurred before the two key moments, as others have mentioned (and I agree) which may indicate "game over" for Andi with Josh:

1. When he said he was falling in love, she absolutely lit up, completely different than with Nick IMO.  Also Andi indicating that Brussels was a great week/favourite place (Josh says he is falling in love, vs Venice an OK week, Nick says he is falling in love but Andi and Josh have the disagreement).

2. The Marseilles breakdown that we saw in the promo but not in full in the episode, to me a result of the disagreement with Josh, the real full meltdown we have seen, apart from the Eric disagreement which I think was a result of exhaustion, alcohol and pressure.

For #1 I think it could be argued that part of Venice being an "OK" week could still be attributed to Nick, as he continued to have issues with the guys, which CH alluded to in his blog, not sure I completely buy it. Also could argue that Brussels being her favourite place could be due to all the private time with Nick, not just Josh, as they did have a lot of private time together.

Despite these two potential "game over" moments, Nick still got the typical F1 FS date. I know that there is the argument that because of Josh’s background in baseball that this date had to go to him. I see what you are saying, BUT, they could have done that and then gone to the beach. To me the fact that ONLY one guy got her in a bikini, especially considering knowing how she feels about that, and that one guy was Nick (spoiled F2) means to me it was not game, set and match with Josh. This date gave Nick and Andi a lot more private time together, time without anyone hearing what they are saying, time that Chris nor Josh got at this point.

I am very interested in the last two episodes, and especially with what she says to her parents about both guys, and who gets what LCD.

such a great post, sbolduc.  you have laid out quite logically many of the pros/cons for the F2.
Totally agree with your last points about Nick and his FD...  
The fact that Andi keeps talking about Nick's intelligence is a big thing for me.
Andi is a smart girl and I think her mental connection with Nick is key to their connection.... and ultimate decision.
He's not who she would typically go for... but he is the answer to all of her dreams.
Still, although obviously I'm firmly in Nick is F1 camp, anything can happen.

And yet on Kelly she said the most important was chemistry.