Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[4health]

Grace, I can't say I disagree about you on this one. I don't think it's properly sour of grapes in my case. I have no fav. And if anything, I am #TeamCarla ftw...lol.although I was guessing Clare is the F1, I've also seen part of editing and media hints that pointing out to Nikki. Either way, I'm not invested in him whatsoever to really care about his pick .

I give him mad props for stay true to himself and not proposing. I even felt pity for him being thrown under tractor trailer all season long. I also have given him the benefit of the doubt all along...that all of  his season's disaster can be blamed on the "edit" demon.  But really , he was downgraded himself on the last episode, mainly for what he did to Clare. No need to lead her by saying " we can have baby in a year and 2 mo", playing their theme song on LCD night, and saying it was their last time before can see e.o in 4 mo. Look, I know the name of the game, but IMO he took it too far. He even surpassed Em in my book..lol

As for the effing-gate, as crazy as Clare as some of you might think, she still has self pride ..and an honest person the way I see it. I'm  also willing to give her benefit of the doubt that she told us the truth. She brought up the effing gate right after the day portion of the LCD , on the couch convo. Only in the heat moment after FRC she spilled it in verbatim. So no... I dont think the egging by production is the only factor . If they really have done the deed, the  fact was already out there. The hurt moment tap this fact when she can't hold back anymore. It's  still  a disgusting idea for me if a Bach need to do " test drive" on his  F2 and/or F3 in the FS pretty much knowing whom he is going to pick as his F1. ( unless, he based his decision on bed performance alone..lol ). The last time I feel the same say was in Jesse Palmer season.

And no... I am not a Clare fan. Far from it.

I truly feel sorry for Nikki, I do think she deserves much better.

Now bring me Andi's hotties to get me out from this cringeville... lol.

Regarding bolded, I can't sympathize with Clare since she was totally participant in everything that was done, and even pushed things as far as she could on the physical relation. She fell harder because she pushed harder.
She was the one who sneaked out to get him regarding the ocean episode.
Also, as far as being led on, it's the name of the game for the F2. Every season same story. But she signed for it.
People feel sorry for her, but I believe that if she had been chosen as F1, we wouldn't hear her complain about anything. She didn't get what she wanted, so she tried to sink the ship. Typical Clare.
I am not feeling bad for her at all.
It's too easy to put the blame entirely on JP when you have 2 willing participants in a very physical relationship.

We will never know the full story…….but the zebra (JP) stripes will always come out….you can edit the stripes off of the zebra but it is still a zebra. We know that he played that song for Nikki on their LCD also and so I ask if Nikki was the F2 what do you think her reaction would have been…….(if the tables were turned)….in that deleted scene we saw a glimpse of what she would say "his an $A%hole"….she said "just play no song at all" or "a different song"…..so you can say that same thing about Clare (from Nikki's thoughts) why didn't JP just say nothing about moving to Sacramento, having babies, 4 months, playing "their" song …… just be respectful and honest and tell the truth, which he could have if he truly knew what he wanted (Nikki) ….Yes I know production won't let him …. I don't buy it I think he did care for Clare or her comment about not wanting him to father her children won't have stung like it did. (It stung his ego or he cared about her)

[Maggenzm]

LOL, wide awake and reading... Millions watched the show and still the  take away from it....emotions are so different....it's hard to grasp reading such animosity towards JP (for me) and remember that we were actually watching the same show.

As most reading know, I was absolutely postive he would pick Nikki. But believe it or not, I think his decision in the end was not as easy at the time that I thought it would be. I thought Clare handled the evening portion of LCD beautifully with her questions BUT....I'll start once more with it's my opinion only...

There's no doubt in my mind...oceangate was much more than a midnight swim. He was very attracted to Clare physically and when she allowed it to go that far...it was her undoing. She showed up on his door in the middle of the night and she wanted him to spend that time with her. Afterward, she had no regrets. I heard her PIS...at the time she wouldn't have had it any other way...UNTIL....while on cloud nine she realized it didn't have quite the same effect on JP. On what day is telling her....having sex was not the smart or right thing to do an easy task.  He could just NOT have that happen again. The editors made him out to be an azz over a swim in the ocean...Yeah right!  They both got caught up in that moment...that physical chemistry was the basis of their relationship.  She knows what happened and still did that interview weeks ago. The editors cut exactly what they needed...paraded her out for her interview but I'm not buying what they obviously successfully sold to so many! So now we have a LCD when Clare wants him to tell her what she wants to hear...it doesn't work that way. Sorry. I think they probably talked dirty playfully many many times but now when she wants to KNOW it's her who is going to be chosen, it's not okay. You know....tell me ...they can't hear you. LOL, he walked right into it, though! What a dream for TPTB! During the evening of LCD, I can totally see her misunderstanding the comments about children...again it goes back to physical chemistry...unfortunately he said too much and she wasn't on the same page in how she interpreted it. She was so determined to get her final answer before FRC...she'll just have to join the rest of those in many many seasons who didn't. She spews...I wouldn't want my children to have a dad like you because she wasn't chosen. This is TB and there is only one F1, Clare. But there is a bright side to this for Clare, TPTB edited it and edited it to make her shine in their eyes. So, we get a dancing Clare on the bed the night before ATFR. All is not lost after all!

Thank you!! If she got the ring, she would have being singing like a canary. No ring, he is a jerk! Can't have it both ways. #sorrybutnotsorry

[biolalyss]

I've been wrestling with how to communicate my thoughts and feelings...and I'm still not sure I can say it clearly, but I'll try.

First, this was my first full season of trying to sleuth The Bachelor (and without spoilers). It was a learning experience for me. I thought the F1 would be Clare (60-40), but I was wrong. No sour grapes, plain and simple...I was wrong. I wasn't a Clare champion -- nor was I a Nikki hater -- I just saw it different. And, I was wrong. It's okay.

I was left after ATFR with impressions...my feelings and, no doubt, influenced by my life experiences. These are not intended to be "facts," but simply how I felt after the show. With respect to...

Chris Harrison -- the guy seemed mad...to put it simply. Part of me understands why, but part of me recognizes that he should have stayed professional. He broke out of his role and got sucked into the reality of reality tv.

Juan Pablo -- He disappointed me. I experienced him as petty...and putting himself first. I do understand he has been run over by TPTB's edit train, but, nonetheless, he had a choice to rise above it. It's not so much what he said and did, but how...the tone, the attitude. There is a way to show "righteous" anger, but I didn't experience his that way.

The video he released (which btw was really sweet) seemed to me to represent his power struggle with TPTB. Unfortunately, as a woman putting myself in Nikki's shoes, I would have preferred for him not to make my relationship with him part of a power struggle. It just feels petty...and, to me, minimizes the relationship. He said he wants to keep their relationship private, but then releases the video. It's just confusing to me. Does he want the privacy or does he just want to win the battle with TPTB? I could go on, but I think I've said enough...

Nikki -- I actually liked her more on ATFR than I have all season. It's the first time I could actually see her affection towards Juan Pablo as being real. I experienced her as emotive and relaxed in spite of the circumstances...previously, she just seemed too much in her head.

Clare -- What can I say? I never liked being a Clare apologist. Much like Juan Pablo, I don't think Clare brought her "best self" to the FRC. Clearly she was hurt and reactive. (I still think Lindsay Yenter had the classiest exit. Going from memory, I believe Lindsay saying something along the lines of being happy for Sean -- that she just wanted him to be happy. How selfless!) I hope that Clare grows from all this. If Juan had picked her, I seriously doubt they'd be together today.

Anyway, those are just some of my impressions -- not sure I've been really able to express them adequately. Overall, the way this show ended just left me feeling sad...for everyone.

Thanks for sharing, Litta. I always love hearing your thoughts! I agree with a lot of what you said regarding FRC and ATFR :)

[JBF]

Clare -- What can I say? I never liked being a Clare apologist. Much like Juan Pablo, I don't think Clare brought her "best self" to the FRC. Clearly she was hurt and reactive. (I still think Lindsay Yenter had the classiest exit. Going from memory, I believe Lindsay saying something along the lines of being happy for Sean -- that she just wanted him to be happy. How selfless!) I hope that Clare grows from all this. If Juan had picked her, I seriously doubt they'd be together today.

Then again, Sean and Lindsay weren't doing QUITE the same things on my TV screen that the other two were doing...

This season... even more than Ben's... is one in which I have ZERO desire to re-watch. Saw more than enough on Monday. Of course, if he and Nikki decide to marry on TV, I'll watch... like I always do. Hopefully by then, my memory will "just delete it" by then... as Juan instructed you-know-who in Vietnam.

[George1218]

I don't care who says what but unless I see video, audio or a statement from the helicopter pilot that JP said what Clare says he said on the LCD I don't believe he said it.

On the whole "Oceangate" thing - I believe that things got "very heated" but I don't believe they had sex.

I don't think JP is perfect or anything but I don't think he is a villian either.

[LibbyBell]

I don't care who says what but unless I see video, audio or a statement from the helicopter pilot that JP said what Clare says he said on the LCD I don't believe he said it.

On the whole "Oceangate" thing - I believe that things got "very heated" but I don't believe they had sex.  

I don't think JP is perfect or anything but I don't think he is a villian either.  

 me either George! I think it was all producer instigated.

(here's what I think happened-- Clare said: "so, do you know me well enough to propose" and JP said: "no but I know enough to keep kissing/making out")

[JBF]

Nobody's a villain. And NO... we never know WHAT happens ANY season. I still don't believe Bob Guiney did-the-deed with "four and a half" contestants his season, as Mike Fleiss kinda-sorta teased. (Never could remember the actual figure Mister Behind-the-shades declared.)

[Guest]

I've been wrestling with how to communicate my thoughts and feelings...and I'm still not sure I can say it clearly, but I'll try.

First, this was my first full season of trying to sleuth The Bachelor (and without spoilers). It was a learning experience for me. I thought the F1 would be Clare (60-40), but I was wrong. No sour grapes, plain and simple...I was wrong. I wasn't a Clare champion -- nor was I a Nikki hater -- I just saw it different. And, I was wrong. It's okay.

I was left after ATFR with impressions...my feelings and, no doubt, influenced by my life experiences. These are not intended to be "facts," but simply how I felt after the show. With respect to...

Chris Harrison -- the guy seemed mad...to put it simply. Part of me understands why, but part of me recognizes that he should have stayed professional. He broke out of his role and got sucked into the reality of reality tv.

Juan Pablo -- He disappointed me. I experienced him as petty...and putting himself first. I do understand he has been run over by TPTB's edit train, but, nonetheless, he had a choice to rise above it. It's not so much what he said and did, but how...the tone, the attitude. There is a way to show "righteous" anger, but I didn't experience his that way.

The video he released (which btw was really sweet) seemed to me to represent his power struggle with TPTB. Unfortunately, as a woman putting myself in Nikki's shoes, I would have preferred for him not to make my relationship with him part of a power struggle. It just feels petty...and, to me, minimizes the relationship. He said he wants to keep their relationship private, but then releases the video. It's just confusing to me. Does he want the privacy or does he just want to win the battle with TPTB? I could go on, but I think I've said enough...

Nikki -- I actually liked her more on ATFR than I have all season. It's the first time I could actually see her affection towards Juan Pablo as being real. I experienced her as emotive and relaxed in spite of the circumstances...previously, she just seemed too much in her head.

Clare -- What can I say? I never liked being a Clare apologist. Much like Juan Pablo, I don't think Clare brought her "best self" to the FRC. Clearly she was hurt and reactive. (I still think Lindsay Yenter had the classiest exit. Going from memory, I believe Lindsay saying something along the lines of being happy for Sean -- that she just wanted him to be happy. How selfless!) I hope that Clare grows from all this. If Juan had picked her, I seriously doubt they'd be together today.

Anyway, those are just some of my impressions -- not sure I've been really able to express them adequately. Overall, the way this show ended just left me feeling sad...for everyone.

Thanks for sharing, Litta. I always love hearing your thoughts! I agree with a lot of what you said regarding FRC and ATFR

Me too Litta and thanks for all the SCs.   

[julychild]

One think that has struck me in reading CH's post-finale interviews is that he described Clare as a 'sweet, caring and confident" woman. He also made sure to say that he liked her right from the beginning and didn't understand the viewers negative reaction to her. My question to you is: could the Clare we saw on TV be an edited character just as we believe JP was?

Why are we so fast in extending this courtesy- giving of the benefit of the doubt, only to the lead and our favourite contestants, and automatically take every one else on "face value". I know this is human nature, but still...

[Ariela]

I see things differently.

Why so much anger and blame on CH? Professional? Professional what? He simply asked a question that if I were a woman in Nikki's shoes I would want to know. Does this man that I BLINDLY fell for loves me or not?

IMO, CH was trying to help Nikki (who seems to be terrified of losing JP) get the answer that she has not been able to get for 6 months. Her denial is so strong that she is too afraid to ask in fear that she will be rejected by JP. Nikki has been wondering since the LCD IF JP loves her. That cannot be a good feeling.
No need to displace your disappointment with the show on to CH, production, or editing.
IF the contestants wouldn't do or say certain things, the editing dept would not have these scenarios in the show, would they?

I think the situation is what it IS; Nikki is in blind love willing to take any crumb he throws her way. JP is in the drivers seat (control). Not having strong feelings for her gives him the edge in the relationship, and JP is taking full advantage of this. Hey, maybe he cannot fall in love but wants to. Who knows? The point is that the relationship is one sided and it shows, no spinning it.

JP can blame the world, but if he cannot say ILY, it's NOT there. If you feel it the emotion takes over and you have no control to yell ILY!!!

I'm not naïve and when I see a non-committal man, I will call him just that. JP can try to camouflage it using excuses that the whole world is against him. Heck he's even convinced Nikki of it. He needs to own his feelings or lack of them and be a MAN about it.

As for the people on the Bach having sex. Of course they do. That's what people that age do- have sex any chance they get. Lust takes over. Many mistake that for love. Just sayin.

[George1218]

One think that has struck me in reading CH's post-finale interviews is that he described Clare as a 'sweet, caring and confident" woman. He also made sure to say that he liked her right from the beginning and didn't understand the viewers negative reaction to her. My question to you is: could the Clare we saw on TV be an edited character just as we believe JP was?

Why are we so fast in extending this courtesy- giving of the benefit of the doubt, only to the lead and our favourite contestants, and automatically take every one else on "face value". I know this is human nature, but still...

I was definitley rooting for Nikki from the very beginning. I did like Clare alot in the beginning but during the show it seemed like she changed. I have no doubt that alot of the change I saw was due to editing. She seems well liked by alot of the girls. IMHO, the editing this season was HORRIBLE and they didn't really show any of the people in their best light.

[Maggenzm]

[quote="grace8136"][quote="biolalyss"]

I've been wrestling with how to communicate my thoughts and feelings...and I'm still not sure I can say it clearly, but I'll try.




Chris Harrison -- the guy seemed mad...to put it simply. Part of me understands why, but part of me recognizes that he should have stayed professional. He broke out of his role and got sucked into the reality of reality tv.

Juan Pablo -- He disappointed me. I experienced him as petty...and putting himself first. I do understand he has been run over by TPTB's edit train, but, nonetheless, he had a choice to rise above it. It's not so much what he said and did, but how...the tone, the attitude. There is a way to show "righteous" anger, but I didn't experience his that way.

The video he released (which btw was really sweet) seemed to me to represent his power struggle with TPTB. Unfortunately, as a woman putting myself in Nikki's shoes, I would have preferred for him not to make my relationship with him part of a power struggle. It just feels petty...and, to me, minimizes the relationship. He said he wants to keep their relationship private, but then releases the video. It's just confusing to me. Does he want the privacy or does he just want to win the battle with TPTB? I could go on, but I think I've said enough...

ITA with the bolded, It was hard to see, and I hope in hindsight Juan will see things differently and be able to learn and grow from this.

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