Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[Aunties_Love]

Just wondering...when Juan Paul asked, "What did I say to Clare that I should regret?" He said he hadn't watched. Chris just told him he offended her by what he said in the helicopter. He didn't tell him exactly what he was supposed to have said. Is it because it isn't really what he said and he would refute it? Is that why Clare didn't "need" to talk to him? She didn't want him to be able to deny it?

That's my thinking.

Since when have tptb given any of the contestants the option to not speak to the lead ? I found that extremely fishy 1

I think this is the first time they did not allow F2 to confront the lead.

They DID give her that chance. She chose not to as she says, she's had enough of his BS and didn't feel the need to have to put up with more.

[Aunties_Love]

weird conspiracy theorists here.

to me it was clear that in helicopter incident did occur.

that was the whole basis of their discussion the night of their final date.

those of you that are trying so hard to convince yourself otherwise.. i'm shocked.

juan pablo watched the show backstage.  if he wanted to refute anything, he would have.  even now he hasn't denied it.

  

  

[Guest]

weird conspiracy theorists here.

to me it was clear that in helicopter incident did occur.

that was the whole basis of their discussion the night of their final date.

those of you that are trying so hard to convince yourself otherwise.. i'm shocked.

juan pablo watched the show backstage.  if he wanted to refute anything, he would have.  even now he hasn't denied it.

  

  

OR...HE's the one who doesn't want to deal with this crap anymore.
Reasoning works both ways ...  

[Guest]

weird conspiracy theorists here.

to me it was clear that in helicopter incident did occur.

that was the whole basis of their discussion the night of their final date.

those of you that are trying so hard to convince yourself otherwise.. i'm shocked.

juan pablo watched the show backstage.  if he wanted to refute anything, he would have.  even now he hasn't denied it.

  I'm surprised this is even being questioned. Clare alluded to it pretty specifically in their LCD evening and said it directly after the FRC.

  Thank you. Even if you toss f-gate aside, there are plenty of other things very wrong here.

Ok, so I am just catching up... Was away for a few days without Internet connection. Felt so on another planet.

I am reading a few posts now and.... Whoaaaa !
So many sour grapes !!!
Both from rejected Clare and posters whose favorite wasn't picked...
Common people, no need to demonize the guy because he's not politically correct and didn't pick your favorite !

On the contrary I applaud JP for doing what he believes was right for him, and in fact the only lead with a child that took the right decision not to rush things. Good for him !
Also good that he has enough personality not to follow the others and pressure from the production. At least, he is not a puppet like some others...

I had Nikki as F1 all along and guess what... I think he's an ass. So no, not sour grapes. Soon he will treat Nikki the way he treated Clare and his own mother. People aren't upset with him for not proposing, they are offended by how insensitive and rude he is... how utterly clueless he is, how he just doesn't acknowledge or comprehend anything anyone says.

[Aunties_Love]

weird conspiracy theorists here.

to me it was clear that in helicopter incident did occur.

that was the whole basis of their discussion the night of their final date.

those of you that are trying so hard to convince yourself otherwise.. i'm shocked.

juan pablo watched the show backstage.  if he wanted to refute anything, he would have.  even now he hasn't denied it.

  I'm surprised this is even being questioned. Clare alluded to it pretty specifically in their LCD evening and said it directly after the FRC.

  Thank you. Even if you toss f-gate aside, there are plenty of other things very wrong here.

Ok, so I am just catching up... Was away for a few days without Internet connection. Felt so on another planet.

I am reading a few posts now and.... Whoaaaa !
So many sour grapes !!!
Both from rejected Clare and posters whose favorite wasn't picked...
Common people, no need to demonize the guy because he's not politically correct and didn't pick your favorite !

On the contrary I applaud JP for doing what he believes was right for him, and in fact the only lead with a child that took the right decision not to rush things. Good for him !
Also good that he has enough personality not to follow the others and pressure from the production. At least, he is not a puppet like some others...

I had Nikki as F1 all along and guess what... I think he's an ass. So no, not sour grapes. Soon he will treat Nikki the way he treated Clare and his own mother. People aren't upset with him for not proposing, they are offended by how insensitive and rude he is... how utterly clueless he is, how he just doesn't acknowledge or comprehend anything anyone says.

Thanks, I have been trying to say that too but it is assumed it is only sour grapes talking.

[Guest]

Grace, I can't say I disagree about you on this one. I don't think it's properly sour of grapes in my case. I have no fav. And if anything, I am #TeamCarla ftw...lol.although I was guessing Clare is the F1, I've also seen part of editing and media hints that pointing out to Nikki. Either way, I'm not invested in him whatsoever to really care about his pick .

I give him mad props for stay true to himself and not proposing. I even felt pity for him being thrown under tractor trailer all season long. I also have given him the benefit of the doubt all along...that all of his season's disaster can be blamed on the "edit" demon. But really , he was downgraded himself on the last episode, mainly for what he did to Clare. No need to lead her by saying " we can have baby in a year and 2 mo", playing their theme song on LCD night, and saying it was their last time before can see e.o in 4 mo. Look, I know the name of the game, but IMO he took it too far. He even surpassed Em in my book..lol

As for the effing-gate, as crazy as Clare as some of you might think, she still has self pride ..and an honest person the way I see it. I'm also willing to give her benefit of the doubt that she told us the truth. She brought up the effing gate right after the day portion of the LCD , on the couch convo. Only in the heat moment after FRC she spilled it in verbatim. So no... I dont think the egging by production is the only factor . If they really have done the deed, the fact was already out there. The hurt moment tap this fact when she can't hold back anymore. It's still a disgusting idea for me if a Bach need to do " test drive" on his F2 and/or F3 in the FS pretty much knowing whom he is going to pick as his F1. ( unless, he based his decision on bed performance alone..lol ). The last time I feel the same say was in Jesse Palmer season.

And no... I am not a Clare fan. Far from it.

I truly feel sorry for Nikki, I do think she deserves much better.

Now bring me Andi's hotties to get me out from this cringeville... lol.

[mprssdbyu]

LOL, wide awake and reading... Millions watched the show and still the  take away from it....emotions are so different....it's hard to grasp reading such animosity towards JP (for me) and remember that we were actually watching the same show.

As most reading know, I was absolutely postive he would pick Nikki. But believe it or not, I think his decision in the end was not as easy at the time that I thought it would be. I thought Clare handled the evening portion of LCD beautifully with her questions BUT....I'll start once more with it's my opinion only...

There's no doubt in my mind...oceangate was much more than a midnight swim. He was very attracted to Clare physically and when she allowed it to go that far...it was her undoing. She showed up on his door in the middle of the night and she wanted him to spend that time with her. Afterward, she had no regrets. I heard her PIS...at the time she wouldn't have had it any other way...UNTIL....while on cloud nine she realized it didn't have quite the same effect on JP. On what day is telling her....having sex was not the smart or right thing to do an easy task.  He could just NOT have that happen again. The editors made him out to be an azz over a swim in the ocean...Yeah right!  They both got caught up in that moment...that physical chemistry was the basis of their relationship.  She knows what happened and still did that interview weeks ago. The editors cut exactly what they needed...paraded her out for her interview but I'm not buying what they obviously successfully sold to so many! So now we have a LCD when Clare wants him to tell her what she wants to hear...it doesn't work that way. Sorry. I think they probably talked dirty playfully many many times but now when she wants to KNOW it's her who is going to be chosen, it's not okay. You know....tell me ...they can't hear you. LOL, he walked right into it, though! What a dream for TPTB! During the evening of LCD, I can totally see her misunderstanding the comments about children...again it goes back to physical chemistry...unfortunately he said too much and she wasn't on the same page in how she interpreted it. She was so determined to get her final answer before FRC...she'll just have to join the rest of those in many many seasons who didn't. She spews...I wouldn't want my children to have a dad like you because she wasn't chosen. This is TB and there is only one F1, Clare. But there is a bright side to this for Clare, TPTB edited it and edited it to make her shine in their eyes. So, we get a dancing Clare on the bed the night before ATFR. All is not lost after all!

[Guest]

I'm not sure where to put blogs about this...

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[Litta123]

I've been wrestling with how to communicate my thoughts and feelings...and I'm still not sure I can say it clearly, but I'll try.

First, this was my first full season of trying to sleuth The Bachelor (and without spoilers). It was a learning experience for me. I thought the F1 would be Clare (60-40), but I was wrong. No sour grapes, plain and simple...I was wrong. I wasn't a Clare champion -- nor was I a Nikki hater -- I just saw it different. And, I was wrong. It's okay.

I was left after ATFR with impressions...my feelings and, no doubt, influenced by my life experiences. These are not intended to be "facts," but simply how I felt after the show. With respect to...

Chris Harrison -- the guy seemed mad...to put it simply. Part of me understands why, but part of me recognizes that he should have stayed professional. He broke out of his role and got sucked into the reality of reality tv.

Juan Pablo -- He disappointed me. I experienced him as petty...and putting himself first. I do understand he has been run over by TPTB's edit train, but, nonetheless, he had a choice to rise above it. It's not so much what he said and did, but how...the tone, the attitude. There is a way to show "righteous" anger, but I didn't experience his that way.

The video he released (which btw was really sweet) seemed to me to represent his power struggle with TPTB. Unfortunately, as a woman putting myself in Nikki's shoes, I would have preferred for him not to make my relationship with him part of a power struggle. It just feels petty...and, to me, minimizes the relationship. He said he wants to keep their relationship private, but then releases the video. It's just confusing to me. Does he want the privacy or does he just want to win the battle with TPTB? I could go on, but I think I've said enough...

Nikki -- I actually liked her more on ATFR than I have all season. It's the first time I could actually see her affection towards Juan Pablo as being real. I experienced her as emotive and relaxed in spite of the circumstances...previously, she just seemed too much in her head.

Clare -- What can I say? I never liked being a Clare apologist. Much like Juan Pablo, I don't think Clare brought her "best self" to the FRC. Clearly she was hurt and reactive. (I still think Lindsay Yenter had the classiest exit. Going from memory, I believe Lindsay saying something along the lines of being happy for Sean -- that she just wanted him to be happy. How selfless!) I hope that Clare grows from all this. If Juan had picked her, I seriously doubt they'd be together today.

Anyway, those are just some of my impressions -- not sure I've been really able to express them adequately. Overall, the way this show ended just left me feeling sad...for everyone.

[Guest]

I've been wrestling with how to communicate my thoughts and feelings...and I'm still not sure I can say it clearly, but I'll try.

First, this was my first full season of trying to sleuth The Bachelor (and without spoilers). It was a learning experience for me. I thought the F1 would be Clare (60-40), but I was wrong. No sour grapes, plain and simple...I was wrong. I wasn't a Clare champion -- nor was I a Nikki hater -- I just saw it different. And, I was wrong. It's okay.

I was left after ATFR with impressions...my feelings and, no doubt, influenced by my life experiences. These are not intended to be "facts," but simply how I felt after the show. With respect to...

Chris Harrison -- the guy seemed mad...to put it simply. Part of me understands why, but part of me recognizes that he should have stayed professional. He broke out of his role and got sucked into the reality of reality tv.

Juan Pablo -- He disappointed me. I experienced him as petty...and putting himself first. I do understand he has been run over by TPTB's edit train, but, nonetheless, he had a choice to rise above it. It's not so much what he said and did, but how...the tone, the attitude. There is a way to show "righteous" anger, but I didn't experience his that way.

The video he released (which btw was really sweet) seemed to me to represent his power struggle with TPTB. Unfortunately, as a woman putting myself in Nikki's shoes, I would have preferred for him not to make my relationship with him part of a power struggle. It just feels petty...and, to me, minimizes the relationship. He said he wants to keep their relationship private, but then releases the video. It's just confusing to me. Does he want the privacy or does he just want to win the battle with TPTB? I could go on, but I think I've said enough...

Nikki -- I actually liked her more on ATFR than I have all season. It's the first time I could actually see her affection towards Juan Pablo as being real. I experienced her as emotive and relaxed in spite of the circumstances...previously, she just seemed too much in her head.

Clare -- What can I say? I never liked being a Clare apologist. Much like Juan Pablo, I don't think Clare brought her "best self" to the FRC. Clearly she was hurt and reactive. (I still think Lindsay Yenter had the classiest exit. Going from memory, I believe Lindsay saying something along the lines of being happy for Sean -- that she just wanted him to be happy. How selfless!) I hope that Clare grows from all this. If Juan had picked her, I seriously doubt they'd be together today.

Anyway, those are just some of my impressions -- not sure I've been really able to express them adequately. Overall, the way this show ended just left me feeling sad...for everyone.

T4share, Litta!!...agree, its been a fun learning experience for me as well, regardless of my wrong F1 guess..LOL..
ITA that no one coming out of this disaster smelling like roses...CH included. :Frown: 
On a better note, thank God this season is over! and it seems Andi gets a bunch of hotties and cuties worth to watch for..(yes..im afraid i will get suck in anyway. :P ...despite pesimist side of me suggesting high doubt of any real love story may emerge from her season..). sooo...hopefuly c u (and your awesome work ) again sometimes on the board   .

[Guest]

Grace, I can't say I disagree about you on this one. I don't think it's properly sour of grapes in my case. I have no fav. And if anything, I am #TeamCarla ftw...lol.although I was guessing Clare is the F1, I've also seen part of editing and media hints that pointing out to Nikki. Either way, I'm not invested in him whatsoever to really care about his pick .

I give him mad props for stay true to himself and not proposing. I even felt pity for him being thrown under tractor trailer all season long. I also have given him the benefit of the doubt all along...that all of  his season's disaster can be blamed on the "edit" demon.  But really , he was downgraded himself on the last episode, mainly for what he did to Clare. No need to lead her by saying " we can have baby in a year and 2 mo", playing their theme song on LCD night, and saying it was their last time before can see e.o in 4 mo. Look, I know the name of the game, but IMO he took it too far. He even surpassed Em in my book..lol

As for the effing-gate, as crazy as Clare as some of you might think, she still has self pride ..and an honest person the way I see it. I'm  also willing to give her benefit of the doubt that she told us the truth. She brought up the effing gate right after the day portion of the LCD , on the couch convo. Only in the heat moment after FRC she spilled it in verbatim. So no... I dont think the egging by production is the only factor . If they really have done the deed, the  fact was already out there. The hurt moment tap this fact when she can't hold back anymore. It's  still  a disgusting idea for me if a Bach need to do " test drive" on his  F2 and/or F3 in the FS pretty much knowing whom he is going to pick as his F1. ( unless, he based his decision on bed performance alone..lol ). The last time I feel the same say was in Jesse Palmer season.

And no... I am not a Clare fan. Far from it.

I truly feel sorry for Nikki, I do think she deserves much better.

Now bring me Andi's hotties to get me out from this cringeville... lol.

Regarding bolded, I can't sympathize with Clare since she was totally participant in everything that was done, and even pushed things as far as she could on the physical relation. She fell harder because she pushed harder.
She was the one who sneaked out to get him regarding the ocean episode.
Also, as far as being led on, it's the name of the game for the F2. Every season same story. But she signed for it.
People feel sorry for her, but I believe that if she had been chosen as F1, we wouldn't hear her complain about anything. She didn't get what she wanted, so she tried to sink the ship. Typical Clare.
I am not feeling bad for her at all.
It's too easy to put the blame entirely on JP when you have 2 willing participants in a very physical relationship.

[Guest]

I guess we are forgetting who made her feel like she was the one and hence gave her the confidence to "push" as you put for more time. If he hadn't treated that group date as a 1-1 for him and Clare, I doubt oceangate would have happened.. Being led on might be the game and her anger proved that she had real feelings and was hurt. In real life when pple get played like that, show or no show, anger is part of the emotions you feel and for all we know, she felt up until the time she heard the words coming out of his mouth that she might be the one. Her anger IMO was appropriate, could she have been a little more gracious about it, absolutely but I totally understand her reaction and boy, was I glad she was not the emotional mess everybody was expecting of her. Ironically, she seems to be stronger than ...let me leave that alone. Everybody involved though seem to have no regrets strangely and are happy how it all ended, so I am happy for all involved. Was never invested in any of them, definitely do not care what happens with them here on out(Made the mistake of getting invested in the Jef and Emily whatamacallit and see how that turned out for me).

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