Bachelor 21 - Nick Viall - General Discussion - *Sleuthing Spoilers* #3

I suspect they were on the same page regarding whatever happened in the FS. They were already heading up to the boom boom room the week before, so if they did have sex it probably wasn't the first time and if it was, they both obviously wanted it. Jen's the one who talked about dolphins having sex for pleasure like "us humans" on their very first date. I highly doubt she had sex with Nick on the condition that they continue dating or get engaged, she did it because she wanted to. Jen's own mother said in her post that he treated Jen with nothing but respect. That's why I don't see the need to make a big deal about it. Kirk was having sex with Carly the whole time last season, yet he dumped her before the end. Still, most people were understanding and instead blamed Carly for being desperate and vindictive. JMO.

ironcat wrote:I also don't believe Nick was faking the tears, but I suspect that they were a result of a lot of mixed emotions he was feeling at the time, and perhaps included some guilt.  As was said, this happened right after having spent the night in the FS, so who knows what they discussed and what Nick implied he was feeling to Jen that night (and morning after) regarding the future only to dump her?  And I still think that Nick was made to realize by producers (perhaps subtly) that breaking up with Jen was the only ending for him on BIP that would allow him to still be in consideration for the next lead, and he might have felt guilty about going that route.  And before anybody says anything, in no way do I think he should have gone the fake engagement route instead, but had he cared more about Jen than he did about being the Bachelor, he could have (and would have IMO) fought to have the "let's just date in the real world and see where it goes" ending that has been done before.  It's obvious to me that his feelings for Jen were less important than his desire to be the next lead, and there's nothing wrong with that, but he may have felt guilty about it (since I agree that he is an emotional kind of guy who would take that to heart).  Again, JMO.

I don't think let's just date is an option they are allowed to use in BIP. They specifically tell you either you get engaged or you go your separate ways. That's the only way they could get some people to commit in the end.

1)It takes two to boink.
2) boinking is not = to making love 100% of the time.
3) lots of people like to boink.
4) unless I was there, and I was not, who knows what went down and how, for lack of better words.

GrownAzzMan wrote:I'm confused. If he was trying to make himself look better to be the Bachelor wouldn't he have not gone on the last FS date at all? Or if he had to go to the end he could have said they would just be talking or whatever. How does going to the end and breaking up with her make him look better? Anyway, I saw no chemistry between them throughout the 10 days they were together and she lives in FL so I wasn't expecting him to say he wanted to date her after the show. She didn't seem into it either. IMO

I can't stop laughing at ur avi and the name

It's this guy's own dialogue that will make him prime.
Like they prob F'd not made love.
Or, did Jen say, "if you didn't love me why did you
make love to me?" 
Somehow I don't think they did, Nick wasn't feeling it. 

I can't stop laughing at ur avi and the name  

HA! My way of keeping him close to my heart..

Beagle wrote:

ironcat wrote:I also don't believe Nick was faking the tears, but I suspect that they were a result of a lot of mixed emotions he was feeling at the time, and perhaps included some guilt.  As was said, this happened right after having spent the night in the FS, so who knows what they discussed and what Nick implied he was feeling to Jen that night (and morning after) regarding the future only to dump her?  And I still think that Nick was made to realize by producers (perhaps subtly) that breaking up with Jen was the only ending for him on BIP that would allow him to still be in consideration for the next lead, and he might have felt guilty about going that route.  And before anybody says anything, in no way do I think he should have gone the fake engagement route instead, but had he cared more about Jen than he did about being the Bachelor, he could have (and would have IMO) fought to have the "let's just date in the real world and see where it goes" ending that has been done before.  It's obvious to me that his feelings for Jen were less important than his desire to be the next lead, and there's nothing wrong with that, but he may have felt guilty about it (since I agree that he is an emotional kind of guy who would take that to heart).  Again, JMO.

I don't think let's just date is an option they are allowed to use in BIP. They specifically tell you either you get engaged or you go your separate ways. That's the only way they could get some people to commit in the end.

That's incorrect, because they have used it before in both the previous seasons. Examples- Michelle/Cody, Nick/Samantha and Justin/Cassandra. Maybe they took it off the table this season, but Nick could have protested if he really liked Jen that much, but he obviously didn't, IMO.

My opinions regarding the break up scene on BIP: It appeared to me that:
1) the sun was very much in Nick's eyes and he needed to squint
2) his right eye was irritated more than his left eye. Sweat or sunscreen in it possibly. Difficult to keep it open?
3) the sniffling sounds were amplified and dubbed in just like Josh's moans
4) he was actually nervous and upset to hurt Jen's feelings
5) he probably shed a few tears as a result of his mix of emotions
^ All JMHOAA.

My opinions regarding men who cry:
1) I think that it is normal and healthy for both men and women to cry
2) I think it, unfortunately, is more socially acceptable for women to cry
3) men are generally scrutinized more closely as to their motivation for and emotions behind their tears
4) people process thoughts and emotions at different paces. One (filmed) moment in time does not tell the entire story regarding the depth of one's feelings or how many tears they did or did not eventually shed. I believe that men are conditioned in life to 'hold it together' longer, cry only in private, and do not discuss their crying. I suspect more men cry more frequently than we will ever really know.
5) I prefer to interact with people who emote. Seeing emotions expressed helps all of us navigate relationships.  I get joy out of seeing positive emotions expressed by my loved ones. I am informed and able to offer support when I see people expressing negative motions. Emoting serves a function. Crying is just one form of emoting. If that is how a person's body is processing their emotions, then I say let the tears flow.
6) Crying is like the body's natural pressure valve. I think that tears release 'emotional pressure' and deescalate things.   I believe that the act of crying may reduce stress and negative emotions, possibly reducing further negative thoughts and actions.
^All JMHOAA.

My opinions about Nick - To Cry or Not to Cry?
1) I think Nick, in general, is a person in touch with his feelings and the feelings of others. That is not to say, that he is incapable of being insensitive at times. We all are.
2) I think Nick as the lead will be like many of the lead before him--uncomfortable, nervous, sad, worried, stressed, and conflicted as he goes through his season.
3) I think Nick as the lead will show his above emotions to varying degrees with each woman, and he will, of course, also be influenced by the emotions he sees from those women. I expect to see him cry from time to time.
4) I, personally, will not question whether his crying is sincere or not. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is being sincere, knowing that there is a multitude of reasons for tears---even in men. For some reason, I personally feel very uncomfortable questioning if his tears are real or fake. I find that question to be 'above my pay grade' in that I'm not a mind reader. I also think it plays a bit into the stereotype that men should not cry. By scrutinizing Nick we are subtly suggesting to other men that, perhaps, it is better not to cry in public because then you too will be subject to questions about your genuineness, etc.
^ All JMHOAA.

Great post Mia.

My take - Nick's squinting was due to the fact that the sun was right in his eyes, or sweat, or sunscreen or sand or wind or all of the above. I did not at all take that as him trying to "fake" it.

As someone who has incredibly sensitive eyes I appear to cry/squint cry all the time...when really all it takes is a gust of wind and then I am squinting like mad - I have to be wearing sunglasses pretty much any time I am outside to avoid this.

I remember one of the very first pre-season things we found out about Nick on Andi's season, from RS, was that he was an emotional guy. He said that when Nick saw his friends on his HTD he got emotional. I also remember when Andi did a word association game during her promotional tour she labeled Nick as "sensitive".

Nick has cried plenty of times on the show - ones that come to mind:

- Andi - Before hometowns he was doing an ITM - I remember this because a lot of people who didn't like him saw this as him being sincere as he was talking about introducing her to friends and family
- Andi - During hometowns he cried with his mom
- Andi - when they found out about Eric
- Andi - In the car after he was dumped he cried
- Kaitlyn - He cried to Kaitlyn when she was questioning his intentions/whether he would be telling the guys about their Ireland escapade and he was explaining how hard the last time was
- Kaitlyn - He cried to Kaitlyn's mom I think during the MTP

Overall I think he is a sensitive guy who is in touch with his feelings - I believe we will be seeing him cry next season but rightfully so.

PS - do not ask me why or how I remember this ... it is a little embarrassing haha  

@mindless & @MiaHawk - I agree 100% with your posts re. the FS debate/Nick (+men in general) breakup crying assessment. 

Jen did not seem under the illusion that Nick was fully in love, so if they did choose to have sex, I doubt that the act would somehow "mislead" her. 

I personally felt really sad for both parties while watching the breakup scene, but others may interpret it as less genuine, which is fine. Different strokes and all

I also don't see how the GMA hosts/Jimmy Fallon appearing to be laughing at the scene somehow reinforces that the crying was fake or that they thought the crying was fake. People can laugh at strong displays of emotion for a variety of reasons, including 1)they feel awkward/uncomfortable 2)they are trying to be funny 3)they are trying to act "cool". I didn't see the Jimmy Fallon clip but I watched GMA & it sounded/appeared to me that somebody made a joke that may or may not have been related to the clip & they all laughed in response, which is fine. This is Bachelor in Paradise, not some Oscar winning tearjerker - I don't expect media people to react with somber emotion when viewing it. 

I'm personally really looking forward to Nick's full range of emotions, complexity & analytical nature hopefully being displayed in full force during his season. One thing I'm fairly certain of: I won't be bored :D
 
Eta: I feel you on the sensitive eyes thing, @sbolduc - I'm always squinting in the sun as well, my contacts get a bit dry, all sorts of fun things. I saw this (sensitive eyes/too much sun combo) as the reason for Nick's squinting as well, along with the tears/sweat etc like Mia mentioned.

^^^ IMO most people are aware Nick is an emotional guy who is prone to tears and THAT is why we are able to contrast those genuine moments in the past with this latest exaggerated display of emotion IMO.  It looked and felt different to me.

Anyway, I love listening to Nick's interviews but it's really hard to ignore how self aware and how well versed he is in understanding the show's dynamics and those they "cast".  If he becomes a Bach host or producer after this I wouldn't be shocked at all.

And for what it's worth I agree, 1) the decision to have sex looked pretty mutual to me, maybe Jen felt it meant more or maybe she was only hoping 2) IMO I think it would take an incredible amount of restraint for him to give up a night in the FS with someone he clearly was IMO highly physically attracted to and had spent so much time making out with plus IMO he'd want to finish his story arc (will he be engaged, 3rd times a charm? Max screen time.  Brownie points with producers etc.)    IMO he had to do all he could to make sure Jen and the viewing audience knew he felt awful as the natural sympathy nearly always goes with the one who is left broken hearted.  

Sucks for Jen, but I'm happy it seems to have landed him the gig... I feel selfish saying that!

Acrunch wrote:I think Nick has learned how to get the viewers' reactions he wants.  I didn't buy the tears but I guess I'm just immune to his charms.  He took her to the FS, makes love to her, knowing he was not that into her and then dumps her the next day.   Anyone else does that and they'd be ripped and accused of all sorts of things; none of them good.  But Nick is just sooo sensitive...

Unless Jen comes out and said they made love in the fantasy suite, no one knows what went on.  I dont believe anything went on because Nick was still deciding if he was feeling long term for her, but above all I did not see much chemistry there either.  JMHO.