THE BACHELORETTE - SEASON 12 - JOJO FLETCHER - **NO SPOILERS** - Episode Discussion - *SLEUTHING* DISCUSSION #2

I had to take a breather from watching as that was the most heartfelt emotional parting with Luke. I actually had a few tears in my eyes.

He was completely blindsided. The look on his face - it made my heart ache.
And then in the car he said

"I was in love with her but never got the chance to love her"

So sad but so heart breakingly romantic!!!!  :broken heart:

There's a saying in the most romantic book ever written - The bridges of Madison County - and it goes like this

"The human heart has a way of making itself large again even after it's been broken into a million pieces."

I really hope that's true for Luke and he gets to piece together his heart and find love. Let's hope we get to watch him do it on the next Bachelor. I certainly would love to see his journey!

Last nights episode was so disappointing.  Once they showed the previews of her in the shirt she wore on Chase date I knew he was done.

Luke was a great guy and HOT, but I never got him. Sometimes in his quiet state I couldn't tell if he was feeling nothing or thinking/processing.  I had a few of those moments with him when she sent him home and he was just staring into space.  His comment in the limo was heartfelt though and he is very good with words and how he expresses himself.

Robby's date was the first time I began to see her real interest in him.  The way it went leads me to believe that he is her F1. if he isn't her pick, he is going to be blindsided and :broken heart:  (along with Mia )

Jordan's date was choppy and distant.  It was either made to be this way to throw us off or she knew by that time he was not the one for her.  Though once he said some random words she acted like it was all better and she loved him too.  I just don't get this whole relationship.  If he is her F1 it will be the most "left field" pick in a long time.

Chase's date broke my heart (of course).  Regardless of him moving slower than the others, he was the most real to me.  He began to open up to her, we FINALLY got to see the fun and joking side of Chase I knew he had.  Then BAM -the minute he says he loves her (which I am pretty sure he was "encouraged" to say by TPTB for added drama) it is See Ya, Good-bye, Sorry I don't feel that way, I want to love you but I can't because I am going to fall into the same pattern as in the past or I want fame more than I want a real relationship.  

Some may think Chase was cold when she said good-bye but to me that was a REAL reaction to what had just happened and am glad he didn't cry his eyes out in the car like his life was coming to an end.  He was pi$$ed and hurt and showed a normal reaction.  I applaud him for coming back, not to make JoJo do more explaining but to apologize and tell her that he cares for her greatly and though he still wants her if he isn't what makes her happy then he wants her to find that.  It takes a very selfless human being to say those things and be that gracious.  I saw this from him all through the season and that is why I was drawn to him.

Part of me hopes his break-through of being able to verbalize his feelings and him coming back to apologize is a good sign that he could be in the running for the next Bachelor    The other part of me wants him to run from the craziness of this francise and find a great girl in the real world and have a great life!

Here's a new preview of the MTA from GMA this morning:  Preview

The preview itself is safe, the tweet it came from not because of comments.  So click preview, not source.

Source

Chad bear is a total %^#&*)&^!!!  Not an ounce of class in his body. He is the true fame-whore of the season. They need to walk him out with security escort, yet they allow him to go onto BIP. SMH.

Ouch! As much as I dislike Chad to the 100th power, is there some truth in what he said? Doesn't seem far fetched to me at all. He is a dog for speaking to her like that, but all insults aside, can we trust what he's saying? His commentary for the time he was on air was distasteful, but it was almost always the truth. I do agree that maybe JoJo isn't the best reader of persons. If she were, then Luke and Chase would have been it he F2. Did TPTB prod Chad to say those things to prep us for her potential failed relationship with F1 post show? I guess all will be revealed on ATFR.

I don't believe that there is any truth in what Chad says about Robby. I've heard enough details about Robby's past relationship (from him and his mom) to believe that he didn't "break up 3 days before the show" (paraphrased). I've heard it explained over and over, and I choose to believe Robby 100%. Therefore, yes, if Chad says that then he is a liar.

I don't know anything about what he says about Jordan. He says Jordan is a liar and a cheat (paraphrased). The only thing I know about Jordan is from the conversation that Jojo had with him regarding his ex and the ex's concerns that Jordan had perhaps been unfaithful. He admitted that he gave attention to other girls. He said it wasn't physical cheating. I feel that there is a whole spectrum to 'cheating'. To me, cheating is anything that interferes with or disrupts the intimacy and exclusiveness that you share with your life partner. Emotional cheating could be the building of parallel intimacy with another. This could lead to physical cheating. I tend to believe Jordan when he said there was no physical cheating. However, emotional cheating can hurt just as much, if not more, sometimes. So, I don't know if what Chad said about Jordan is 100% false, but I don't consider him a reliable source of information. Interesting that he says all of these things with the benefit of knowing that Jordan and Robby are not there to defend themselves against his accusations. He is classless at minimum, and pathological at maximum. IMO.

Chad is playing some sort of villain role for TPTB because something in his personal make up allows him to act that part. (For example, Wells would never be able to play the villain because he doesn't have that personal make up) Chad is a mean, petty, vengeful brute who could not get along with anyone (except maybe Daniel-who himself referred to Chad as being a Hitler-persona). The preview clip shows me an angry person who goes out onto stage with the purpose of tearing down as many people as he possibly can. He is still threatening the other men, disrespecting the show's premise and Jojo herself.

I don't believe that Chad's running comments through out the show were always grounded in truth. I think they were grounded in his version of the truth in a universe that revolves around him as the Alpha male. I also don't believe that all of the other men's running comments were always truth. I think that the comments are always their version of the truth at that moment of time with the information that they have available.

I also don't think that I can agree that Jojo is a poor judge of people based on who her final 2 men are. I personally think she did a good job of whittling down the men each week. She ended up with a good group in the final weeks. We only get to see what they show us. And we each choose to believe all or part of what is shown to us. I choose to see Jojo as a very emotional and sensitive person who is looking for a similar person for a spouse. I think that was the biggest determining factor in her recent eliminations of Luke and Chase. But, yeah, Jojo admits to having trusted people in her past that she shouldn't have. That is what optimistic, romantic, emotional people do. And sometimes they get taken advantage of and people use them. I think that romantic dreamers are people who have to live a certain way, just like artists are compelled to create art and musicians are compelled to create music. It doesn't make her foolish or less, it just makes her herself.

The only point that I will concede as a possibility is the last statement: that Chad might be saying those things to prep us for her potential failed relationship with teh F1 post show. To me, this makes sense only if her F1 is Jordan. Jordan has been getting a bad edit all season and this would just be the cherry on top of that bed edit. Why? To simply create drama for a tv show or for the TPTB to get revenge over a F1 who was a wrong choice which led to a failed relationship? IDK. I tend to think the former-drama. That is because I truly believe Jojo is a good judge of people and she picks Robby.

All of this is only my opinion, as always. I'm unspoiled. I'm flying blind. But I'm choosing to see a love story of epic proportions with Jojo and Robby (who is without a doubt the biggest hopeless romantic I have EVER seen on this series in all these years). Peace.

moonchild wrote:I agree that if she does choose from her F3, it will be Jordan.  Sorry, Mia!

I dont use the term bad boy to mean they are bad people but more about what kind of baggage they are bringing into this.  As far as I can tell, for Robby, the baggage is just that he had a  very recent  breakup of a long term relationship.  She's been in that position and realized after the fact that it was a mistake to jump quickly into another committed relationship.  He didn't help himself by telling her ILY so early in.  She is afraid of being rebound girl.

JMO but I think Jordan is carrying more baggage than United Airlines.  If she does choose him, I guess we are to believe that the love of a good woman fixes everything or is it that he's just misunderstood.  It will be interesting to see if they start making his edit more positive.  They haven't started yet with that jab they gave him with his comment about Luke in the hanger.  Maybe he is like Courtney, he gives them so much good material that they cant pass on it.

It probably has already been talked about but I could not find it. When I first saw Jordan- the first guy- get out of the limo and go up to Jo Jo -she said," We finally meet". I realized they knew each other- probably well -from social media. It has to explain why all the red flags concerning him - over and over again- she has seen but not given proper concern for. With all those great guys Why?

Did anyone else notice during Robby's FD, they panned the camera to the bedside table and she had a cell phone charging? I didn't think that they were allowed to have cell phones while taping. Can the lead have a phone?

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ETA:

MTA thoughts: Luke, Chase, and the rest of the men (except for angry meat boy) seemed to really like and respect Jojo.

Angry meat boy: classless to the core. Jojo 100% has his M.O. and loved the way she wouldn't respond because all he craves is attention.

Hey all, just wanted to say I'm out, it's just not as fun to watch with my fav gone.

Mia, I hope your guy takes it, and all is good with them outside the show.  

Thanks to all for making it fun for me this season...oh my goodness, I think I see something...yes, it's a flying unicorn!! danceround :Bubba:   See ya on the other side!

  Thanks for all the silliness, Lost! You will be missed. 

(Deep breath)...I've been in recovery mode...

FS episode was a doozy! So sad to see both Luke & Chase go. I think if JoJo wasn't so broken (incomplete) and if she had experience with a good relationship and was a little older, Luke and Chase would've been the last two standing. I melted at the words each of them spoke in this epi.  

JoJo seems like she hasn't recovered from her past hurts and now she is continuing her old patterns because her old wounds never had a chance to heal. She jumped from Chad R---->to the Ben nonsense--->to a questionable F1 without much time for self-reflection. I'm not mad at JoJo for sending these fine young gents home, but I am sad for her. Luke and Chase conducted themselves as I expected they would....with total class. And whoever these two lads end up with will be LUCKY ladies indeed!  

I can't blame Chase for such real and raw emotion upon leaving JoJo. I think he got more closure going back to see her during the RC. I also think given his and JoJo's conversation at MTA that he is still in love with her and trying to leave the door open for her if things don't work out with her F1. :Nod: I don't think Luke is over JoJo either, but he stated he was ready to fall in love again because that's what the puppet masters told him to say to seal the deal as next lead (LUKCY us!!....although I'm sad it's most likely not Chase) By the way, JoJo doesn't get to call him Chaser anymore. No more nicknames!  Save them for your chosen one and stop teasing the man who poured out his heart and spilled it on the floor for you!

JoJo's HTD with Jordan was an eye-opener. She wants to nurture and chase a guy, not the other way around. The mixture of these two reasons are why she keeps asking Jordan probing questions to alleviate her doubts/fears 1) She is the most invested in him 2) Her intuition is telling her to not trust him fully.

When you compare/contrast Jordan's BL/FE/Eye contact to that of the other men, something is sooooo amiss.  Then when Jordan is giving an ITM/PI he doesn't have these issues (rehearsing for broadcasting?) IMO, he comes across as one of the least sincere (probable) F1's I think I've seen from this franchise. I can see how his slick, smooth-operator style could make JoJo and maybe many others fall under his spell but I'm not buying it for one minute. (This season mirrors Jillian Harris' so many ways. Dead Ed anyone?)

I don't think TPTB are buying it either and that is why they have edited JoJo, Jordan, & Jordan antagonists the way they have this season.
The edit has shown, IMO:
1) JoJo couldn't help herself and fell for someone with questionable integrity....so someone not like Ben, but someone like ex-Chad, the good guy vs. the not-as-good guy
2) That she will have a fun and passionate but short ride with her F1 post-show
3) the highlights of both Chase and Luke in the edit were to show what JoJo missed out on (most like Ben, most likely contenders to break her toxic love pattern) with the added bonus that America will fall in love with one/both
4) the 1:1 dinner date with Wells was to show perhaps the less grounded view JoJo has about long-lasting love, then proceeds to walk into the nightclub alone (foreshadowing after her breakup from F1...sorry, but it will most likely happen sooner rather than later, IMO)
5) JoJo's need for words of affirmation rather than affirmative actions
6) I will go so far as to say, tptb edited this season in such a way that they were hoping for a change-of-heart or switcheroo a'la Mesnick.  

There were several things that disturbed me during the FS episode but the biggest thing was this conversation:

(Brooks Forrester's SC, actually)
I did not see the kind of lovey-dovey afterglow I was expecting. This just does not scream out "special" to me.
Jordan might be a nice in RL, but he has also come across pretty much all season, IMO, as a token narcissist.
Also, I can see how some may think Jordan's VO about "wanting to be a better man for JoJo"is endearing but...how about being the better man on YOUR OWN so that you can bring your whole, authentic self to the table? I wanted MORE for JoJo, someone more complete...someone who didn't need fixing. If we are to believe JoJo brings out the best in him....well....I am not that impressed.

I still adore JoJo and know that everything will be okay for her in the long run. She will learn.....eventually...and probably end up with someone amazing....in a few more years.

I'm with veg_out, it's getting harder to relate to these younger leads...just a few more years even would make a big difference in terms of sincerity and realistic long-lasting outcomes.