The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - ATFR - *Sleuthing - Spoilers* #3

Fingersandtoes wrote:I love these bts tidbits we get that shed so much light on the whole show.

So do I - it's my favorite part of every season and each season teaches a little bit more about how it works and that's always helpful when watching subsequent seasons.

Fingersandtoes wrote:I think it was in that sadly interrupted today periscope, where they were asked if the lead could request extra time with someone, and Ben said he could but that leads to extra pressure or something. I'm going to assume from the other ladies AND TPBP.
He said it leads to hurting other girls and them questioning what are they even doing there. I bet the Mexico stroll took it's toll.

If you think about it, up until the FD when everyone is sequestered and can't know what's going on, the girls all live together. They surely know when someone isn't there because they have little else to do but keep track of who's there - and who's missing. Approaching the effects of extra time that way - that it's a "secret" that can't be kept secret - helps me to understand why it has an effect that becomes problematic. I have to believe that everyone on the Mexico GD knew that Ben was missing and so was Lauren - most likely for a much longer time than anyone else on that date got. How many of those girls started wondering if they were "just spinning their wheels"? Follow that up with the swimming with pigs date - if posters here could tell just from still shots of Ben and Lauren in SM that there was something very different in how Ben was with Lauren - just imagine what it would have been like to see them interacting live in front of their own eyes. How many basically shut down and just went through the motions - without the emotions? Just my opinion, but I saw a lot of that (motions without the emotions) and I think it really had an effect on how the show had to go about getting to the FRC at the end.

SarahD wrote:Those lines though seem full of insecurities. I think she should have done what Lace did which is to work on her own and heal herself rather than getting into an unnatural way of dating in the hopes of getting a proposal. If her insecurities are deep seated, I'm going to be so curious if she will find healing just because 25+ men will be competing for her.

They are expressing her insecurities. How deep seated they are is something we may not be able to know yet. Like Ben's "unlovable" comment - I'm certain it had to sting more than just a little bit to be in love with some who moves away - and rejects your offer to move to be with them. I don't think it scarred him for life, but I do think it made him really think about a relationship that seemed too good to be true. At the end that same skepticism played out for both Ben and Lauren as they found out that what seemed too good to be true turned out to be truly as good as it seemed.
JMHO

Fingersandtoes wrote:I just think it's crazy to sign up on a show where the lead dates multiple other people after leaving another relationship where other people were involved too. Especially if you're tired of competing for men to love you. That's why I think JoJo's 'I'm tired of competing' was straight up lead line for her own season of 20+ men competing for her.

Ben's 'system' was interesting IMO, I don't know how other leads have done it before. Ben each week looked for the person he saw a future with the least, and IMO Lauren never was even considered on that list.

I think it was in that sadly interrupted today periscope, where they were asked if the lead could request extra time with someone, and Ben said he could but that leads to extra pressure or something. I'm going to assume from the other ladies AND TPBP.
ETA: Here's the periscope https://youtu.be/XP-NikEjjko
He said it leads to hurting otger girls and them questioning what are they even doing there. I bet the Mexico stroll took it's toll.

I love these bts tidbits we get that she'd so much light on the whole show.

Jmo again.

It's not like the whole competing thing was continuously brought up by JoJo throughout the whole season. She said it once to Ben, while they were in the bathroom hoping for some sort of privacy, right after he says, yes I'm in love with you, but I love someone else too. Ben said numerous times that JoJo was the most comforting and supportive person there for him the whole time and we saw parts of that. I don't think she had issues competing with other women the whole season. At the time that she said it I would assume she was burnt out and confused.

If there was a storyline for her season I would think it would more so center around, "can she trust someone completely to believe he loves her as much as she loves him?"

SarahD wrote:

2observe wrote:

Fingersandtoes wrote:^
IMO it has helped that he was open and honest from the start, with Lauren. It was a risk he took, instead of blaming it on production and bla bla. He owned it all, still does. And Lauren being so level headed has made it easier for him. So now he can still own it, and there are no surprises around the corner. Jmo.

ETA, I just don't see anything that hints that he misses being the crntre of attention. He seems to appreciate hear Lauren do a lot of the talking, he turned down the prospect of DWTS. He seems more than eager to get Lauren and himself settled in. Denver and away from the attention.

My issue with Ben is him not telling Lauren about him telling Jojo he loved her before he asked her to marry him.  To me, it seems that he was more truthful to Jojo by telling her that he also loved Lauren.  I just think that it would have been more honest if Ben had given Lauren a chance to consider how she felt about his feelings for Jojo before she accepted his ring. jmo

He didn't really tell Jojo out of his own volition to be "truthful" to Jojo. Jojo coaxed it out of him because she wanted validation.  Lauren never questioned what Ben feels for her.

I think Ben telling Lauren in private was the right thing to do. He had so much respect for Lauren and was considering what Lauren would feel. Lauren said it stung! Of course it did. Ben chose not to tell her before or right after the proposal. He told her a full day after. Was that not being truthful?  No, IMO it's not. His main concern was how Lauren would feel. He told her in private the day after the proposal because he didn't want to taint the day of the proposal. He wanted that to be a happy occasion for Lauren to remember but their real lives began after that and that's when he chose to lay it all out. He chose to do that in private for a reason. It isn't because he's only truthful to Jojo. All my opinion.

I have to go back and watch the ATFR because I recall Ben asking Lauren if it was truly the happiest day of her life. They looked at each other and Lauren laughed.
This showed me that this couple really communicated and most likely had a long heart to heart. Lauren wasn't looking to Ben for answers; she was giving them as a woman who got it and chose to move on. Ben's lucky that Lauren is gracious and trusted him. But it's love that allows her to be forgiving.

My ONLY hope for Jo's season is that they don't dwell on Ben or make it part of her story line in any way. I know it's inevitable initially that he will come up during her set up, and I'm sure we will have a few guys telling her how stupid Ben was to let her go. But I want it to end there. I'm not interested in any prolonged story line where JoJo tries to find a guy who matches what she felt with Ben. And I can see the editors maybe trying to angle that way.

I don't think JoJo's insecure really, the bad relationship where she "wasn't the only person in their life" caused some insecurities, which in understandable. Then when Ben broke the rules and told her he loved her too, she was taken by surprise and thought "wow, he really loves me, I finally found a guy who really loves me". I can see why she thought it was game over at that point, no more competition, just going through the motions. But then on the LCD she realised that ILY meant nothing really, since he was still undecided. Competition back on. I would've felt awful in her position as well. It's not that she was in a competition she signed up for, it's that she thought the competing had ended already, thanks to Ben's selfish words, and then it was back on. I think she knew deep down she was losing at that point, since she'd always suspected Ben was more into Lauren, but his stupid ILY fooled her for a few days.

Lucas15 wrote:

Fingersandtoes wrote:I love these bts tidbits we get that shed so much light on the whole show.

So do I - it's my favorite part of every season and each season teaches a little bit more about how it works and that's always helpful when watching subsequent seasons.

Fingersandtoes wrote:I think it was in that sadly interrupted today periscope, where they were asked if the lead could request extra time with someone, and Ben said he could but that leads to extra pressure or something. I'm going to assume from the other ladies AND TPBP.
He said it leads to hurting other girls and them questioning what are they even doing there. I bet the Mexico stroll took it's toll.

If you think about it, up until the FD when everyone is sequestered and can't know what's going on, the girls all live together. They surely know when someone isn't there because they have little else to do but keep track of who's there - and who's missing. Approaching the effects of extra time that way - that it's a "secret" that can't be kept secret - helps me to understand why it has an effect that becomes problematic. I have to believe that everyone on the Mexico GD knew that Ben was missing and so was Lauren - most likely for a much longer time than anyone else on that date got. How many of those girls started wondering if they were "just spinning their wheels"? Follow that up with the swimming with pigs date - if posters here could tell just from still shots of Ben and Lauren in SM that there was something very different in how Ben was with Lauren - just imagine what it would have been like to see them interacting live in front of their own eyes. How many basically shut down and just went through the motions - without the emotions? Just my opinion, but I saw a lot of that (motions without the emotions) and I think it really had an effect on how the show had to go about getting to the FRC at the end.

This reminds me of a similar situation with Andy and Tessa - on a particular group date skiing, Andy and Tessa went "off the trail" in order to steel time away from the group and cameras. They "got lost" which was commented on by one of the girls in an ITM - but this was something that Tessa brought up and the two of them together acknowledged as having purposefully done just to have extra time. On the screen, we were shown a few minutes of their time together which was edited to appear as 'equal' to other moments with key women, when in actuality it wasn't - and none still remaining were fooled.

sosleepy wrote:My ONLY hope for Jo's season is that they don't dwell on Ben or make it part of her story line in any way. I know it's inevitable initially that he will come up during her set up, and I'm sure we will have a few guys telling her how stupid Ben was to let her go. But I want it to end there. I'm not interested in any prolonged story line where JoJo tries to find a guy who matches what she felt with Ben. And I can see the editors maybe trying to angle that way.

Based on some past examples, I doubt they will make the whole show about what happened (or didn't happen) between JoJo and Ben. Ashley's season - or at least the first half of it - was (IMO) painted on a canvas of her insecurity (small boobs on the roast date, Bentley wanted it to be Emily instead of Ashley) but really very little mention of Brad. Ben's season seemed built on his feelings of being unlovable but there was little flashback to Kaitlyn - more to his ex GF - and in truth his "unlovable" storyline was based on only one statement he made on Kaitlyn's season - it just happened to be something they (TPTB) could run with.

The show has to pick up JoJo's storyline in some way but IMO it will quickly transform to a fuller development of her own storyline - whatever that is - and Ben really won't be much of a part in that beyond setting up a starting point. IMO in reality, fans and show watchers seem to carry a torch for past (and unsuccessful) relationships on this show much longer and stronger than do the contestants themselves and this is very apparent in SM comments.
JMHO

sosleepy wrote:My ONLY hope for Jo's season is that they don't dwell on Ben or make it part of her story line in any way. I know it's inevitable initially that he will come up during her set up, and I'm sure we will have a few guys telling her how stupid Ben was to let her go. But I want it to end there. I'm not interested in any prolonged story line where JoJo tries to find a guy who matches what she felt with Ben. And I can see the editors maybe trying to angle that way.

I don't think it'll be a storyline about Ben, that rarely happens iirc. Only DeAnna kept bringing up brad, but otherwise the lead forgets all about the previous season. I think she'll mention her past and her real ex, but not Ben.

For me, it was hard to get into JoJo "loving Ben" but there was good physical chemistry between the two with an easy vibe. JoJo for Ben was no pressure and someone he could shoot the breeze with. Kind of a friend with benefits. Someone he was able to love because she seemed to have his back and to Ben that was a best friend in the bachelor bubble. 

I do think that Ben did truly love JoJo in that instance, but there was no comparison to the kind of love he has for Lauren. The kind of love that scared him since he never felt it before but the kind he couldn't give up. 

IMO, JoJo using the word compete kind of summed up how I felt about her. JoJo knew what was going on around the house because she made sure she sized the girls up. Same with Ben. She used everything opportunity to be "his friend" Think of the Jubilee situation. Ben is low after letting Jub go and here is JoJo asking not to be blindsided. 
She knew how he felt about Lauren but yet she kept questioning Ben's feelings rather than to be in her and his moment.

Lucas15 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed those same "audition" comments from the final episode.

Maybe they were audition lines, but since most of them were given in her limo exit, I think they were genuine. Jo spent a season reflecting on being scared to let someone in again. She watched the way that Ben was with Lauren, commenting on it in Mexico, the Bahamas, and Warsaw. I suspect that Jo also thought after her HTD that she'd be eliminated. So when she reaches the FSD and has Ben telling her that he loves her, that he won't run away in hard times, and then during the LCD, he reiterates those points and tells her she's his best friend, well, the limo exit lines are simply a reflection of unfulfilled promises and probably a compilation of emotions felt in other relationships.

Though I think that Ben and Jo played their parts, something unexpected happened along the way: they realized that they both loved each other. Ben thought he'd make a beeline through the season with Lauren, yet he, by his own words, paused b:c of Jo.

Since Ben recognizes his relationship with Jo as something important to his journey, I can also see that. I applaud Ben for finding a way to hold up both Lauren and Jo. So often the F2 has been slammed by the lead, show, etc. in an effort to justify the final relationship.

Ash2214 wrote:

If there was a storyline for her season I would think it would more so center around, "can she trust someone completely to believe he loves her as much as she loves him?"

I loved your entire post. This part nailed it, though. I also think that Jo is going to struggle a bit with trusting the words, "I love you."

Idlemess wrote:For me, it was hard to get into JoJo "loving Ben" but there was good physical chemistry between the two with an easy vibe. JoJo for Ben was no pressure and someone he could shoot the breeze with.

snip

She knew how he felt about Lauren but yet she kept questioning Ben's feelings rather than to be in her and his moment.

I also struggled with JoJo's affirmations of loving Ben because while I could hear the words, I couldn't see the underlying emotions that make them sincere. I always sort of wondered why JoJo was trying to figure out how Ben really felt about her - was it because she loved him and wanted to know if he was going to pick her? Or was it because she was afraid he was going to pick her which could cost her any chance of being The Bachelorette. I will probably never know the answer - but will think about the question.
JMHO

veg_out wrote:Though I think that Ben and Jo played their parts, something unexpected happened along the way: they realized that they both loved each other. Ben thought he'd make a beeline through the season with Lauren, yet he, by his own words, paused b:c of Jo.

Since Ben recognizes his relationship with Jo as something important to his journey, I can also see that. I applaud Ben for finding a way to hold up both Lauren and Jo. So often the F2 has been slammed by the lead, show, etc. in an effort to justify the final relationship.

I never expected that Ben would completely back away from his feelings for JoJo and I believe that in that moment they were real and (by his own words in the People Magazine photo shoot edition of March 28) "best defined" by the words ILY. In that same article Ben was quoted as saying "It was actually JoJo who said 'Who can you not picture your life without?' And right away my mind went to Lauren. No matter how great things were with JoJo, I had another woman I could never say goodbye to." That doesn't really sound to me as though his feelings for JoJo gave him much reason to pause.

IMO there's always the perception that leads re-write history after the season to justify the choice they made. But I also think that we are given two very different pages in a history book. One is written by the show and presented to us as part of a heavily scripted Reality TV show, and the other is written by the lead - after they are free from the shackles of conforming to the storyline of the show. We all have to decide which of these two pages is the most accurate version of reality.
JMHO