The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - MTP -LCD - FRC - *Sleuthing - Spoilers*

Lucas15 wrote:

grace8136 wrote:I took the hell to mean the backlash on SM and how it will seem that his F1 "wins" Ben by 51%. It's not exactly a romantic fairytale for poor Lauren.

I took the Hell to mean what happened during filming because Ben expressed it as something that already happened - not something that is going to happen; anything that will or won't be said on SM about a close call on the "win" can't begin until Monday. IMO by 11:00PM Monday, EDT, everyone is going to have a different view of things and the "narrow margin of victory" may either not seem narrow at all, or won't matter to most.
JMHO

Remember, also, there are handlers involved. Ben's conflict of love is not unusual to the show. In what previews we are shown, I see parallels to Andy, Bevin and Tessa season. In fact, they even have JoJo in a swimming hole similar to Bevins. Andy professed his love for Bevin very distinctly on the FRC (and may well have said it to her before that - off camera)...it's just this season, Ben was more vocal about it (and likely because of his handler, and tptb desire to promote it through the encouragement of him to be candid instead of quiet).

So I tend to agree here - "we" is likely something that happened and is a retrospective statement. He may well have deep regrets for awhile on "how better he could have played his cards" but - will, become much like Jason and Molly over time with "whatever hellish events that occurred" being completely insignificant to their relationship today.

Mgrissom wrote:Imo Ben is one of the smartest most true to himself bachelors ever.  I have been so impressed with how he has handled interviews and has supported all of the women.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the one thing the lead cannot do is give away the outcome of the show. Telling just one girl ily would do that. MO is that he wanted to say ily to Lauren, so when JoJo said it to him, he said it back - love has many meanings and he cared for her a lot.  To Lauren he said, "I've been in love with you for awhile now." The producers then took the story and ran with it.

If a lead tells one girl that he loves her - it is highly unlikely the other girl would find out.  In this situation - both Lauren and JoJo knows that Ben loves both of them.  So, I would presume he was very candid with his feelings with both girls.  

If you turn back time to the first Bachelor, Alex Michael, he clearly told Trista that he was going to choose her on their last date together, while laying on the bed and she believed him, only to get dumped at F2.  That could have "given away the outcome of the show" but it didn't.  TPTB, did however, allow it to be seen to set up the viewership for a shocking ending.

Keep in mind, the ending of the show is always in the hand of the producers - and they spend the entire season spinning the edit so that there are water cooler discussions throughout the season to secure viewership.  They have done this successfully for 20 seasons.  Even if a bachelor is 100% smitten - um.m. like perhaps Brad Womack was to Emily Maynard, the edit will likely never show his candor or professions unless it suits their storylines.  A good example of this that comes to mind is Desiree's season when the producers showed just how "in love" with Brooks she was - just to build the suspense on whether she was going to go home heartbroken without someone, or accept the proposal of someone she was not in love with.  

Another thought on what you said, many ex-contestants said that "if you don't say it, they can't use it".  While they will wear you down on ITMs,...or drive you in circles in a hot car without a/c until you say something they could use in their edit,...or even make you cry over someone at home that you loved and lost so that it looks like you are crying over rejection of the bachelor/bachelorette (all of which has been done).... they will only "use" what they need to build a story.  

There are incredibly gifted/sly/creative/smart minds behind this show that has given this series longevity as well as international spin-offs/copycat shows in Canada, Australia, Russia, etc.  Those men/women who stand behind the scenes are not invested in romance as much as they are invested in their careers and job security.  At one point, very early on, in Trista's season - I thought this show did invest in the contestants and a positive love story - but then when they aired her bachelor/bachelorette weekend party that led up to their big wedding, we were shown "antics" that producers played to build drama and obstacles for Trista and Ryan (like bringing strippers to his bachelor party).  Since then, "the line" has been pushed out many, many times.

grace8136 wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

grace8136 wrote:I took the hell to mean the backlash on SM and how it will seem that his F1 "wins" Ben by 51%. It's not exactly a romantic fairytale for poor Lauren.

I took the Hell to mean what happened during filming because Ben expressed it as something that already happened - not something that is going to happen; anything that will or won't be said on SM about a close call on the "win" can't begin until Monday. IMO by 11:00PM Monday, EDT, everyone is going to have a different view of things and the "narrow margin of victory" may either not seem narrow at all, or won't matter to most.
JMHO

Well that would point to JoJo because Lauren is currently having a rough go of it on the internet. What he did during filming hurt her AND has already created SM backlash and embarrassment. This forum is relatively kind to Lauren and Ben, other places, not so much.

jmo

There are a number of "couples" who struggled when seeing the show once filming was over. It would and should cause any newly engaged bachelor couple to assess their relationship in the light of reality and not the fantasy settings that this show puts them in. What person would not want to "win" by a landslide, and not just a narrow margin? Emily questioned Brad when she saw all he said to Chantal, Molly questions Jason, Tessa questioned Andy, etc. I think it would make sense that each couple would - at some point - assess how "narrow the margin really is or isn't".

Reviewing Desiree's season was a huge strain in the SM world on both of them. Chris was slammed for proposing to a woman that could not possibly be in love with him in less than a week of losing her "beloved Brooks" and Des was questioned without mercy on how she would accept the proposal of a man she didn't love. And when they hit the interview circuit - they were on the defensive the entire time. It wasn't a positive time - but there was a positive outcome.

The polarity of the viewership is not new. I don't know of when there was a time when the F2 were not fairly evenly split with supporters.

Lucas15 wrote:

viola-b wrote:Ben did say that Jojo "gets it" more than anyone else.

But ... exactly what is Ben referring to that JoJo "gets" more than anyone else?

*snipped*

I think it's very simple. Until then she'd been his empathetic buddy, who told him he's doing a good job at being the Bachelor, letting women go. The night he dumped Jubilee was the perfect example. People even said she was being tactical by kissing his a**. But then she saw how Ben was with Lauren and her bubble burst. She knew who he was most into and it wasn't her, so she became standoffish. Ben freaked out and tried to get the old JoJo to return. He needed someone to commiserate with because everyone else was acting strange as well. But JoJo was legitimately upset, so he was on his own. The fact that she reacted the way she did, proved to me she was genuine. If she never really wanted Ben and just the Bachelorette gig, why would she have been upset? She would've just kept kissing his a** to make sure she gets as far as possible. I prefer to use Occam's razor on these matters. JMO.

Tiger Tip wrote:The polarity of the viewership is not new.  I don't know of when there was a time when the F2 were not fairly evenly split with supporters.  

Watching a horse race where one horse has a 31 length lead going into the final straightaway doesn't get people standing up and cheering - it's the nose to nose dual to a photo finish that does that - and if the bets on each of those two horses are relatively even then it really gets watchers cheering them on. IMO the show has learned this over the years and will always edit and script to provide a photo finish; the last thing they want is indifference. The polarization of viewers and fans over the F1 / F2 race to the wire is part of the secret sauce that has helped this franchise survive as long as it has with little signs of running out of steam.

TPTB have to continue to innovate how they create polarizing situations; IMO we're seeing one such innovation this season.

George1218 wrote:I totally think that the feelings between Ben and Jojo were real, just that there was so much more between Ben and Lauren.  I don't think Jojo was a plant or anything, I just think that there is a possibility that as it became clear to TPTB that Ben was totally into Lauren, they decided to that they may a well play up the chemistry with Ben and Jojo to keep things interesting.  Maybe Ben agreed so that he could let other girls go that he wasn't feeling as strongly for and Jojo agreed so that she could be the next lead.  Maybe everyone, but Lauren was in on it. That would make what Ben said about "we put her through he##" true.  I do think that Ben and Jojo were very attracted to each other from the start and TPTB capitalized on that as much as possible.  I don't know, to me, it just seemed like Jojo has kind of been "acting" the last few episodes.

I'm not so sure it would be as calculated as this might suggest.  While you are very right - manipulation and plotting is a huge part of the foundation of this show when it comes to everything behind the cameras - but, not always.

Ben may well have had 'love' feelings for both girls - being lost in the bachelor bubble is just an added bonus for producers to have more footage to use in developing the story line that is often predetermined at the beginning of the season.  The "we put her through hell" could be very much referencing handlers and his inability to see the one woman he couldn't live without - when overcome with very strong emotions for both.  

The challenge in JoJo becoming the next lead is in how it would demerit this current season.  The FRC and ATFR have to be credible.  She just can't come out on stage and say, "yeah I loved you but I am already over you and looking forward to meeting 25 men who are better than you".  While the actual FRC happened in November and she would "in reality" be ready to move on now, to the average viewer, the FRC happens on Monday - and it wouldn't seem right for her to suddenly be ready to have her own show.... particularly if they edit her with intense heartbreak at the FRC.  Think about the reunion with Deanna and Brad - she was still very crushed by his refusal to choose her and came to the ATFR with hope that he would realize this - - they could not have offered her the lead that moment for her own show and she gladly accept without discrediting her reaction as phoney to the viewership (which I don't believe it was).  Now,...if filming is scheduled to start a number of months from now, then there is plenty of time for her to be promoted, and emotionally recover, for the viewership to get behind her.  (And I say this to the reference of the who - most of the millions of viewers don't know the background information these forum boards know.)

As for the attraction - you are right - it is there with JoJo in a number of ways.  But this is usually the case with all leads and their final 2 or 3.

Ali - F3 (Frank), Jillian - F3 (Reid), Brad 2 - F2 (Chantal), Sean - F2 (Lindsay) - - such attractions or tenderness toward these people don't need to be manufactured agreements behind the cameras - they just exist in the undercurrent of basic decency in most human beings.  And the editors just have to do the chopping magic.  Where it gets "sticky" is when the handlers start "handling" - like they did with Ashley and Ben - setting him up to "propose because Ashley wants him to" and telling her in essence that "he knows he isn't the F1 but will attempt to propose so we can get a following for him to become the next lead" - then, they have a reaction from both having been blindsided because of the lies behind handlers that they have come to trust throughout the season.

The key here is - you may well love a number of people very intently, but who can't you imagine living without?  Bens conflict may be less over being unsure of who is F1 is and more over regretting that his candor would have contributed to his F2 being all the more blindsided in his rejection.

Lucas15 wrote:

Tiger Tip wrote:The polarity of the viewership is not new.  I don't know of when there was a time when the F2 were not fairly evenly split with supporters.  

TPTB have to continue to innovate how they create polarizing situations; IMO we're seeing one such innovation this season.

Great analogy.  You are right - the profession of love for the final few is not a new thing - but showing it and promoting it so openly is. This will be a photo-finish unlike any other season for the franchise.

mindless wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

viola-b wrote:Ben did say that Jojo "gets it" more than anyone else.

But ... exactly what is Ben referring to that JoJo "gets" more than anyone else?

*snipped*

I think it's very simple. Until then she'd been his empathetic buddy, who told him he's doing a good job at being the Bachelor, letting women go. The night he dumped Jubilee was the perfect example. People even said she was being tactical by kissing his a**. But then she saw how Ben was with Lauren and her bubble burst. She knew who he was most into and it wasn't her, so she became standoffish. Ben freaked out and tried to get the old JoJo to return. He needed someone to commiserate with because everyone else was acting strange as well. But JoJo was legitimately upset, so he was on his own. The fact that she reacted the way she did, proved to me she was genuine. If she never really wanted Ben and just the Bachelorette gig, why would she have been upset? She would've just kept kissing his a** to make sure she gets as far as possible. I prefer to use Occam's razor on these matters. JMO.

Interesting post. When I think of the final three - only two come to mind when I imagine who would want to be the bachelorette and not the F1 for Ben. Caila (who I never saw as being in love with Ben as much as she would be in love in being within the final 4) and JoJo (who has a very broad life of opportunities including picking up a lead role as had her brother). Now, if true, and JoJo would love to get the bachelorette gig, would it be because she really wants to find love, or because she wants the adventure?

Tiger Tip wrote:

mindless wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

But ... exactly what is Ben referring to that JoJo "gets" more than anyone else?

*snipped*

I think it's very simple. Until then she'd been his empathetic buddy, who told him he's doing a good job at being the Bachelor, letting women go. The night he dumped Jubilee was the perfect example. People even said she was being tactical by kissing his a**. But then she saw how Ben was with Lauren and her bubble burst. She knew who he was most into and it wasn't her, so she became standoffish. Ben freaked out and tried to get the old JoJo to return. He needed someone to commiserate with because everyone else was acting strange as well. But JoJo was legitimately upset, so he was on his own. The fact that she reacted the way she did, proved to me she was genuine. If she never really wanted Ben and just the Bachelorette gig, why would she have been upset? She would've just kept kissing his a** to make sure she gets as far as possible. I prefer to use Occam's razor on these matters. JMO.

Interesting post.  When I think of the final three - only two come to mind when I imagine who would want to be the bachelorette and not the F1 for Ben.  Caila (who I never saw as being in love with Ben as much as she would be in love in being within the final 4) and JoJo (who has a very broad life of opportunities including picking up a lead role as had her brother).  Now, if true, and JoJo would love to get the bachelorette gig, would it be because she really wants to find love, or because she wants the adventure?  

Maybe she wants both. For anybody that was a contestant on this show, I think the offer to be lead would be hard to turn down. JMO.

Please utilize the multiple quote button when possible. 
If you plan on responding to someone's long quote--you can also "snip" it by simply cutting off the irrelevant parts of the quote to your response and writing "snipped". 
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I keep going back to this..and I am very curious as to how far they're going to go with it.. and how they're going to spin Ben out of this mess in 2 hours if this comes to fruition on screen:

Julychild re: the current US issue:

Ben told F2 his feelings were deeper than anything he had ever felt, said she was his best friend , loved their passion and dumped her the next day

If it does, I can see how JoJo gets tons of instant buy-in for any reaction that she offers up...a free pass of sorts due to outrage. Melissa Rycroft  and the DWTS gig comes to mind. Bypassing a lot of the hand twisting over the newness of the situation.

The Vox article summed it up beautifully:

The real winner of The Bachelor is not the woman who is chosen by the bland, vanilla hunk; nor is it the hunk himself. It's the woman who gets rejected, laughs off her heartbreak, and rises triumphantly to go after what she really wants — or at least agrees to go through it all again — on The Bachelorette. It's a narrative that, compared with the falseness of the final couple, is the kernel of truth at the center of the joke. Tragedy, plus time, equals comedy.

Based on a lot of the commentary on SM...Ben's explanations for his behavior and even the tears about it aren't excusable as it is outside the realm of what is socially acceptable re: relationships and engagements. JMO

Tiger Tip wrote:

Lucas15 wrote:

Tiger Tip wrote:The polarity of the viewership is not new.  I don't know of when there was a time when the F2 were not fairly evenly split with supporters.  

TPTB have to continue to innovate how they create polarizing situations; IMO we're seeing one such innovation this season.

Great analogy.  You are right - the profession of love for the final few is not a new thing - but showing it and promoting it so openly is.  This will be a photo-finish unlike any other season for the franchise.

These are great points.  What I've noticed the last several seasons is that TPTB are finding ways to really build up the story with the F2.  That allows them to show some nice, obvious moments with the F1, who is usually out there via spoilers. Then they build a story on "how is it possible he/she really picks F1 when XYZ has happened with the F2?"  (eg Kaitly slept with Nick, Ben told Jojo he loves her, Chris seemed more after and into Becca at the end).  This way even if most can see the building of the relationship between lead and F1, and don't necessarily question they outcome, they will question how do we possibly get from here to there.  And that's what always makes a good story, IMO. And gives fans lots to talk about along the way.