The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - Episode 9 - Discussion - #3 *Sleuthing - Spoilers*

aviej wrote:

ForeverLove wrote:

agentcurls wrote:I don't think she had anything personal against Lauren, IMO.
I just think she was uncomfortable. I know I would be. The whole thing was so awkward to watch. 

True. But my friend said, at least Lauren tried to be nice. You can't hide those glaring eyes. Imo of course .

IMO those glaring eyes were in direct response to Lauren's comment about "I couldn't ask for a better week". It came off IMO that she was trying to make JOJo jealous by deliberately saying how great her week was. But I guess at this stage you are highly invested in the relationship. So I Don't hold JoJo's glaring eyes or Lauren's remark for that matter against them. They are both in an awkward situation.

I agree, I think JoJo came in to the rose ceremony completely confident, then saw how content and happy Lauren looked and the wheels started turning. I'm sure she was asking herself why Lauren looked so self-assured. That said, JoJo did her toast first, and I think the claws were already out at that point! Definite "nasty mean eyes" (to quote another poster) from her at the end too.

I'm sure JoJo is ok now, but Ben definitely did not handle his feelings or the situation well at the time. I was really impressed with him up until the FD. And now its just weird that in his ITM and in his blog, he hasn't even acknowledged the horrible position he has put his F2 in. It is all about him. I guess now we know why they built up the "blindside" theme this year!

^ So are we all (audiences) going to be blindsided?

Idlemess wrote:^ So are we all (audiences) going to be blindsided?

*Personally* I think JoJo is the only one going to be blindsided. Through no fault of her own.

Aside from the spoilers, for me it comes down to clues throughout the season...Like knowing Lauren's FD (and all those ILY's) happened after JoJo's. I just can't see Ben acting that way with Lauren coming off his date with JoJo if he was going to pick JoJo.

And Lauren also got the last date and the best suite, clear signs that the producers knew she was the front runner. I didn't see anything monumental happening on JoJo's FD to change that front runner status (regardless of Ben saying ILY). Some conversation and lots of physical chemistry, but nothing that would upset the balance of things longer term, given how well Lauren's date also went.

And like others have mentioned, the way Ben has pursued Lauren all season, to the point of the other girls noticing and being really upset. Men always want what they can't have.

I really do hope that Ben gives JoJo some clues that she doesn't have it in the bag during the LCD.

sunnymicki wrote:

aviej wrote:

ForeverLove wrote:


True. But my friend said, at least Lauren tried to be nice. You can't hide those glaring eyes. Imo of course .

IMO those glaring eyes were in direct response to Lauren's comment about "I couldn't ask for a better week". It came off IMO that she was trying to make JOJo jealous by deliberately saying how great her week was. But I guess at this stage you are highly invested in the relationship. So I Don't hold JoJo's glaring eyes or Lauren's remark for that matter against them. They are both in an awkward situation.

I agree, I think JoJo came in to the rose ceremony completely confident, then saw how content and happy Lauren looked and the wheels started turning.  I'm sure she was asking herself why Lauren looked so self-assured.  That said, JoJo did her toast first, and I think the claws were already out at that point!  Definite "nasty mean eyes" (to quote another poster) from her at the end too.  

I'm sure JoJo is ok now, but Ben definitely did not handle his feelings or the situation well at the time.  I was really impressed with him up until the FD.  And now its just weird that in his ITM and in his blog, he hasn't even acknowledged the horrible position he has put his F2 in.  It is all about him.  I guess now we know why they built up the "blindside" theme this year!

In fairness, when his blog was posted he had not yet publicly said he was engaged.  So I don't think he could address the position he put F2 in since at that point it was possible that he chose no one (especially for the unspoiled)  I will be curious to see how he deals with this in the future.

eliza3 wrote:

sunnymicki wrote:

aviej wrote:

IMO those glaring eyes were in direct response to Lauren's comment about "I couldn't ask for a better week". It came off IMO that she was trying to make JOJo jealous by deliberately saying how great her week was. But I guess at this stage you are highly invested in the relationship. So I Don't hold JoJo's glaring eyes or Lauren's remark for that matter against them. They are both in an awkward situation.

I agree, I think JoJo came in to the rose ceremony completely confident, then saw how content and happy Lauren looked and the wheels started turning.  I'm sure she was asking herself why Lauren looked so self-assured.  That said, JoJo did her toast first, and I think the claws were already out at that point!  Definite "nasty mean eyes" (to quote another poster) from her at the end too.  

I'm sure JoJo is ok now, but Ben definitely did not handle his feelings or the situation well at the time.  I was really impressed with him up until the FD.  And now its just weird that in his ITM and in his blog, he hasn't even acknowledged the horrible position he has put his F2 in.  It is all about him.  I guess now we know why they built up the "blindside" theme this year!

In fairness, when his blog was posted he had not yet publicly said he was engaged.  So I don't think he could address the position he put F2 in since at that point it was possible that he chose no one (especially for the unspoiled)  I will be curious to see how he deals with this in the future.

I don't know, I think he could have still said something like "In retrospect, I can see that telling both women I was in love meant that at least one would be hurt more than necessary," without giving anything away.

Maybe because he didn't say that, it really means that he doesn't regret it? And so maybe that means that he did have some kind of resolution with his F2? Its hard to imagine, but just thinking out loud about reasons he might be ok with how he handled things.

IMO the way he has dealt with it, and answered questions during the WTA interviews, he will do fine. He'll apologise for the hurt, what else is tgere to it? IMO it's never easy to face the girl you blindsided, but on this show F2 always gets blindsided to a point. It is the chance you take going on the show.

IMO the plot is that the lead is in love with 2 whenever the lead is not taking a villain to the f2 or the chosen one decides the lead is not for him(her) at f3 (or maybe f4- but tptb probably make them do a "Frank" so they stay as long as f3.

I think Ben's problem here is that he compartmentalized his relationships so well that he did love both women (probably a good thing that it wasn't more than that). And while, obviously, it comes through that he led one on, I think that IRL (dating only one at a time) he would have told each that he loved her- and one relationship would maybe last forever and one would last awhile. Ben's anguish (and he really has had an anguished face in the previews) is that once he's had this RC it hits him what he's done- and I'm going to guess that he's never broken up with a women he's said he loves within a week of telling her that- and haven't his girlfriends (IRL) broken up with him not he with them? So he's charting completely new territory for himself.

I think some of the leads (JP for example) don't fall in love at all, and some just madly lust after one or two. But Ben's completely in the bubble and tptb have done their diabolical job well with Ben. I think the experience chewed him up. But you know, it's a little like giving birth- what you have at the end is worth all labor- which you remember, but not that much because of the result.

Fingersandtoes wrote:IMO the way he has dealt with it, and answered questions during the WTA interviews, he will do fine. He'll apologise for the hurt, what else is tgere to it? IMO it's never easy to face the girl you blindsided, but on this show F2 always gets blindsided to a point. It is the chance you take going on the show.

I agree, I do think he will have some well thought out words to make up for giving his F2 unnecessary reassurance. And the girls do take their chances when they sign up for the show. I'm sure JoJo is fine now.

But it was still hard to see JoJo's face relax and light up when he said ILY on their date. You could just see her guard fall down as she processed what (she thought) that ILY had to mean. Ben had the perfect out, because he is not expected to say ILY back, but he chose not to use it. He could have shown more restraint to protect F2's feelings a bit. I don't even actually like JoJo that much and still feel bad for her. The FRC is going to be particularly excruciating to watch this year.

^ it can be hard for both girls. No matter how it's viewed. Both girls either way were used but it's a show of their own chosen. Tough pill however.

aviej wrote:And maybe that's why I like JoJo. She's not perfect and she's not afraid to show it. She doesn't give off the vibe of trying to say the right things at all times and react the ways it'll be most socially accepted. She just is.

IMO if Lauren says the right things and always acts most socially accepted could come from the job she is in. Being an airline attendant I am sure she was trained that way.

Well, in thinking more about the "mess" that the dueling ILYs created (which I do think was strongly encouraged and maybe even orchestrated by producers once they knew that "nice guy Ben" had very strong feelings for 2 women), I now suspect that the additional heartbreak Jojo experienced might end up landing her the Bachelorette job. No doubt the fan outcry at the ATFR for her to receive some sort of "compensation" will be overwhelming. And since I'm sure she is over Ben by now (it will have been 4 months by the time of their confrontation, and no doubt EVERY F2 is really over the lead by the time of ATFR and is really just sticking to the script by that point), the producers might decide this time to go a different way, and not present a "still hung up on Ben" Jojo, who wouldn't be ready to find love with another guy, as they usually do, but instead present a "pissed off Jojo" who deserves to find her Prince Charming NOW. Especially since the fan feedback on Caila hasn't been all that positive/enthusiastic.

Tptb are experts at creating the moment they want. IMO if they want JoJo to be b-ette (and her season would be much better than Caila's would be IMO- and probably better than Lauren's if she were f2) they will set it up to make it work... for instance, they could make turn a show of emotion at ATFR into part of her story line or do a video of all the things she's done in the 4 months since Ben, etc. They are professionals. It's their job to figure out how to make it work. And by the time May rolls around the general public really won't remember... because how many boxes of wine will be consumed the evening of the finale? I don't think details will matter at that point.