The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - Episode 9 - Discussion - #3 *Sleuthing - Spoilers*

ironcat wrote:Well, in thinking more about the "mess" that the dueling ILYs created (which I do think was strongly encouraged and maybe even orchestrated by producers once they knew that "nice guy Ben" had very strong feelings for 2 women), I now suspect that the additional heartbreak Jojo experienced might end up landing her the Bachelorette job.  No doubt the fan outcry at the ATFR for her to receive some sort of "compensation" will be overwhelming.  And since I'm sure she is over Ben by now (it will have been 4 months by the time of their confrontation, and no doubt EVERY F2 is really over the lead by the time of ATFR and is really just sticking to the script by that point), the producers might decide this time to go a different way, and not present a "still hung up on Ben" Jojo, who wouldn't be ready to find love with another guy, as they usually do, but instead present a "pissed off Jojo" who deserves to find her Prince Charming NOW.  Especially since the fan feedback on Caila hasn't been all that positive/enthusiastic.

I think that could work. Thing is Jojo is really nice and sincere. She doesn't have to be super pissed off. The problem is MF has created a scenario where the final 2 has every right to yell and cry at the ATFR which he would LOVE. Is he willing to give that up for a season of a fun and charismatic Bachelorette? I would hope so but I wonder. What is so interesting to me is after this crazy double I love you episode no one is running around yelling Lauren for Bachelorette if she doesn't get Ben. I think it's very telling how hurt everyone is for Jojo and we don't know for certain that she isn't happily engaged.

rhondam wrote:Put yourselves in her shoes—Ben told her he loved her just 2 or 3 days before. She knew it was against the rules and he confirmed it. She is now certain she is his final choice, how could she not be, he just told her he loved her a lot. Yet she sees Lauren acting like she's not worried at all. She is looking at her quizzingly trying to figure out why this other girl is acting so confident. This is my opinion of how and why JoJo's look was as it was.

Agree.  She looked the same way with Amanda whey they were the last 2 waiting for a rose the week before.  To me it's more of a "what's going on here" suspicious look.  Jojo seems pretty aware and observant and IMO she's never been one to hide her opinion on things or what she's feeling.  It usually shows on her face.

And as you said above she literally said to Ben "are you allowed to say that" ILY to her, he said "no" smiled and kissed her.  IMO the girl now thinks 100% she if the F1.  Add in Ben's reassurances of "I promise not to blindside you", "we're on the same page" and at the waterfall "you doubted it but I always knew we'd be here".  Come on Ben  . Jojo is seriously going to be the most lead on F2 ever IMO.   He laid it on thick if he was just following producer orders or had decided on Lauren weeks earlier.  I don't think Ben's that cruel so that's why I have to believe he was actually conflicted.  Otherwise, what a huge jerk.

Lastly, most lead on, blindsided F2 ever, who is already pretty popular with fans = no brainer for Bachelorette, IMO.

Lauren couldn't carry her own season of being 'ette. Too bland, imo. The 'ette needs to be someone animated, which I guess you could say that fits with Caila. She is bubbly and outgoing, but a little OTT in my opinion. She reminds me a little of Whitney in a way. JoJo is outgoing, but also has a laid back personality from what I've seen. I think she could be a great 'ette!

relaxing wrote:

rhondam wrote:Put yourselves in her shoes—Ben told her he loved her just 2 or 3 days before. She knew it was against the rules and he confirmed it. She is now certain she is his final choice, how could she not be, he just told her he loved her a lot. Yet she sees Lauren acting like she's not worried at all. She is looking at her quizzingly trying to figure out why this other girl is acting so confident. This is my opinion of how and why JoJo's look was as it was.

Agree.  She looked the same way with Amanda whey they were the last 2 waiting for a rose the week before.  To me it's more of a "what's going on here" suspicious look.  Jojo seems pretty aware and observant and IMO she's never been one to hide her opinion on things or what she's feeling.  It usually shows on her face.

And as you said above she literally said to Ben "are you allowed to say that" ILY to her, he said "no" smiled and kissed her.  IMO the girl now thinks 100% she if the F1.  Add in Ben's reassurances of "I promise not to blindside you", "we're on the same page" and at the waterfall "you doubted it but I always knew we'd be here".  Come on Ben  . Jojo is seriously going to be the most lead on F2 ever IMO.   He laid it on thick if he was just following producer orders or had decided on Lauren weeks earlier.  I don't think Ben's that cruel so that's why I have to believe he was actually conflicted.  Otherwise, what a huge jerk.

Lastly, most lead on, blindsided F2 ever, who is already pretty popular with fans = no brainer for Bachelorette, IMO.

I agree with this. This is probably the closest to a Mesnick season as we've ever had. At least Ben is still happily engaged. By this point in Jason's season, he was deep underground and no longer crowing about his engagement (I believe that actually stopped at about the same time that the episodes started airing).

Yeah I don't think Jojo is acting out of character at all. I think I would act very close if not exactly how she is acting after all the transpired during their fantasy date. I, too, hope for Ben's sake that he really loved her in those moments or he really does just look like a jerk.

From my perspective, I believe that Ben did feel "love" like emotions for both girls remaining. They are two very different relationships (imo) and each can be seen as love stories, depending on who is watching. And that's why I think that tptb seem so thrilled with this season...they got real emotions for and from two girls and therefore a lot of real anguish from all sides....a real train wreck emotionally at the end .

^^^^^ I believe that too. ^^^^^^^

TPTB have referred to things as horse races. Dark horse etc. They loved this season because it was probably neck and neck ,ending in a photo finish. If it was that close then it's no wonder Ben expressed love openly to both. Everytime he was with one, he felt they were his F1 imo. He treated them as such . It could be the order of the dates. After leaving Jojo he was on a high. He didn't know what lay ahead with Lauren. When he had his dates with Lauren, that impression might have been stronger , even if by a little. If the order of the dates were reversed, who knows if the outcome would have been different . But that wasn't the case. I'm not going to fault Ben for the two ILY's . If that's what he felt like saying , so be it. There will be consequences but it can't be reversed . In that moment, that's what happened and how he felt. I'd rather see the lead conflicted and confused vs knowing who his F1 would definitely be and they just have to fake it through with the F2 until the FRC.

Both Jojo and Lauren really fell for Ben so whomever the F2 is, it's going to hurt no matter. But Ben cannot be faulted for not giving his 100% to each as he tried to figure out which one he couldn't live without . Jmho

I apologize about the convo my two friends and I had about Jojo's "glaring eyes" . When someone mentioned it, I had already had my convos with my friends and it got triggered by what was mentioned . They brought it to my attention . I knew it was awkward at the RC but didn't think about it . I guess we can all interpret why she did it, just like we can interpret why Ben did what he did in saying the two ILY's . And although it seems like a faux pas, he had his reasons just like Jojo had hers. Jhmo

The editing is still the biggest mystery to me. I am missing why it was done in the manner presented. I get the hook but it was also like wait for it. With the laser focus on Lauren and how cute and agreeable everything was, I feel like they created a bit of tunnel vision with the general audience up until last week. While JoJo did get screen time and many reaction shots throughout the season, her relationship with Ben had a more subtle, low key presentation with lots of "counseling" moments addressing his and her issues along with making out.

They could have spread the wealth around earlier and still had their 2 ILYs ending. However, it might have been more understandable or palatable if why he was torn had been presented better and sooner. Leaving Ben to look a little less like a schmuck.JMO

We know they have a storyboard of how they want to shape the season. We don't even know how things will unfold after MTP or LCD. Because it's never happened before, openly and with cameras running , they can have a field day. Making Ben look like a schmuck is the least of their worries imo. They have show to produce and a story to manufacture. The fact that Ben ended up with an F1 is his reward. He found love. That's all they really promised him. Again jmo. Because what Ben felt for the two was as real as their feelings for him, they got a lot of film to work with. I'm curious how things will unfold but, I don't think Ben faked anything and that was his problem imo. The Bach bubble did a number on him , but through it all, he found his ONE. As with all F2's who fell for the lead, it will hurt . But like Caila said, until she watched back, she could see what he had with Jojo and Lauren was indeed stronger than what he had with her , no matter what she thought. In that moment, Jojo will probably call things into account with Ben during the FRC. It's her right to question and his right to try to explain why. He might even be clumsy and emotional about it. It's going to be a lose/lose at that point. But for whatever reason, Ben came to a decision in the end . Maybe Jojo seems at peace with things because like Caila, as she watches, she sees the differences . Maybe ? If Jojo ends up being F1, though I don't think so, then everything above can relate to Lauren too.

ForeverLove wrote:

Jeepers wrote:It's difficult to determine all that eye contact when they aren't in the same frame  .. There is a lot more in that RC clip .. That is not exclusive to JoJo .. Including the little snide look that she gave Lauren .. When JoJo turned away... And more as well

Omgoodness! I have two friends who watch with me when possible. Not this week's episode . They watched on YouTube today . They kinda  liked Jojo . Last week one said she  didn't like her family , and this week the other caught Jojo's "nasty mean eyes ". Her words!

2.0 and 2.30

Jojo definitely has a mean girl streak in her. Or at least that's how she comes across to me. It's not really noticeable like how Olivia's craziness was put out there but Jojo acts like she's the leader of a mean girl pack in high school. Her little micro-aggressions towards Jubilee was when I first noticed it then watching her on several other group dates, I've noticed it more and more like how she was seen talking about Jubilee as soon as Jubilee left the room, how she was the one that asked outright what Ben wanted to talk to Olivia about. Like she always has to be in the know. Her little look towards Amanda in the hometown rose ceremony and her look to Lauren in this rose ceremony just add to me thinking that Jojo isn't as nice as how she comes across, especially towards other women.

Well Jubilee just said in an E! online interview that she's Team JoJo all the way and that she's a sweetheart and a great person. It's in her thread.

Wait a minute. What "look" did JoJo give Amanda during the HTD RC? I saw JoJo give her a compliment when she first arrived and Amanda ignored her. Did I miss something?