The Bachelor 20 - Ben Higgins - NO SPOILERS - Discussion

Rolly wrote:
Just curious.... how do you avoid getting spoiled? It has to be hard to avoid magazines all around and TV ads. Those that are unspoiled this season have you been unspoiled before?

I've been very busy in the past few months so I haven't really had a whole lot of downtime to come to the board. The temptation to read the spoiled threads, therefore, has been less. And I've never been a viewer who does too much preseason reading/sleuthing. I pretty much start the season with the first episode.

None of my family or friends watch or discuss this show, so I don't have that temptation.

I don't look at the magazines in the stores or watch any of the entertainment shows that may give away secrets.

I have completely avoided the internet stories/spoilers by not searching for anything Ben related. It's happened to me in seasons past that I've just wanted to find some info about the lead, and I've come face to face with spoiler info and gotten spoiled.

I was probably unspoiled for several of the early seasons of this show. Then through my involvement in certain boards, I've been spoiled pretty much ever since. A few times I have begun a season unspoiled, gone 4 or so episodes without participating in the spoiled threads, but then the temptation got to be too much and I entered the threads and got spoiled. I think my attitude toward this show and the outcome has changed a lot over the years. Because I am no where near as emotionally invested in these people as I once was, I think I'll be able to handle it if Ben doesn't pick who I think he does (Jojo).

It has been difficult to be here for the last few weeks and not read any of the other threads, though. I haven't been able to participate in a lot of discussions about a lot of different things. I've avoided all the threads (even the ones about certain former male contestants because I wasn't sure if spoiler info might be in there, such as So-and-so and F2 would make a good match). I've noticed more avatars contain photos of Lauren than Jojo, and that has made me wonder if I'm not wrong about Jojo being F1, but then I think of how many avatars contained Arie and Nick and Becca and...

aviej wrote:I was unspoiled for most of this season, but when I heard he was in love with two women, I jsut couldn't take it any more and gave in to the spoilers. To unspoil myself I stayed away from the forum and I unfollowed RS on Twitter and other mag sites. However, I have one question for Mia. How do you know that in the bathroom the words "I love you" and "I'm in love with you" were directed at JoJo? Could it be that the "i'm in love with you" was actually a clip from his time with Lauren? Don't get me wrong. I'm rooting for BenJo till the end. But I just want to cover all the bases.

To be completely honest, for as much as I do not trust the editing and VOs, for some reason that possibility has not registered in my brain. Maybe because I think Jojo is F1? So, I am seeing what I wish to see?
You are correct, it could be a VO. We see no lips moving. ( Thanks for Haha!) You could be absolutely correct, and now I am questioning myself as to why I did not consider that. I mean, I thought that Ben's "ILY" to Lauren (in SC where she has her hand near his mouth) might very well be a VO... so why have I not questioned the bathroom conversation?

One reason is because I think he's going to pick Jojo and that fits my narrative.

Another reason is because a LCD conversation has never taken place on a bathroom floor before, and it makes me think he is pulling out all of the stops to reassure Jojo. I'm not completely convinced that Ben would join the F2 on the bathroom floor to reassure her. It seems like such an intimate thing to do. If a conversation was taking place with a F2 and that F2 got upset and retreated to the bathroom in tears, I think a guy (even Ben) would be more likely to give her some space and take that time to compose himself. If he was trying to comfort the woman he loves and wants to propose to, I think he'd go the extra mile and go off camera to try to convince her that she must trust him and trust in what they have together. If Ben told Jojo (F1) that he also fell in love with Lauren, I'm sure she'd be questioning everything she is feeling for Ben and vice versa. That would basically require him to sit on the bathroom floor and reassure her. If Jojo was the F2, why would he need to do that? Wouldn't that be extra cruel?

Also, the continuity of that conversation appears in tact. The words seem to flow out in a logical order. The sound of the words seems consistent, too. (tone of voice, volume of voice). As opposed to the VOs at in the previews that supposedly take place at the FRC! Those VOs make completely no sense to me. They are so spliced and diced that they seem to conflict one another and make no sense to me at all. If somebody is so inclined to transcribe them and explain them to me, go for it!

I agree Mia, you can hear the echo of words in the bathroom conversation.  Unless Ben went into a bathroom to do the VO then I think the conversation is authentic.  What I did notice when rewatching previews is that I don't hear the echo in the "Yes" at the end.  It could be that Ben is struggling to admit that to JoJo and so that is why it comes out differently, but I am now starting to wonder if he doesn't confirm outright that he loves Lauren too?  However, they are making such a HUGE deal of this shocking confessing I don't see them building it up then it being completely false.  There is too much riding on that.  VO during certain situations/dates is one thing, VO during a pivital confession is a whole other thing.  I don't ever remember the producers ever doing something that drastic to the lead.

Do y'all want SC's from the new preview released today?

Ladybug82 wrote:Do y'all want SC's from the new preview released today?

Thanks Ladybug!

I've had great fun this morning catching up with everyone's posts. There's a lot that I want to say but if I did the "multi quote" option my post would be about a page long!

First off I am loving that we now have different points of view. For such a long time it's just been me and @theKeptGrits on this thread and we pretty much agree on everything

From the very beginning of the show I had Lauren, JoJo and Becca as my top 3. I saw his connection with L and JJ straight away and as for Becca, well I just like her. His relationship with L has gone from strength to strength, even the Leah moment was just a tiny blip. However, I see his relationship with JJ as having more fits and starts, moments of understanding and connection followed by confusion and uncertainty. If she is F1 it might make their relationship stronger, who knows. But I don't think she is F1.

I don't trust TPTB and their edit - they are sneaky and manipulate the story - I'm still a bit pissed off about the Leah and the black eye situation!

What I do trust, however, is the unaltered footage we've seen and those brilliant screen caps @Ladybug82 put up for us. Awesome job by the way!

The way that Ben looks at Lauren is like he's looking through her eyes to her soul. I know that does sound overly poetical - but I hope you understand what I mean.

Also that bit in the preview where they are on a boat and he's resting his head on the crook of her neck and she's scratching his scalp (also brilliantly screen capped by Ladybug) - to me that's contentment, that's peace, that's unity and that's acceptance.

And I just don't see that with JoJo sorry.

But it's JMHO!

sophienette wrote:

Ladybug82 wrote:Do y'all want SC's from the new preview released today?

Thanks Ladybug!

Yes! Please, please, please, please!

Where can I find that latest preview? Is it different from that one at the end of WTA?

locoforbach wrote:I agree Mia, you can hear the echo of words in the bathroom conversation.  Unless Ben went into a bathroom to do the VO then I think the conversation is authentic.  What I did notice when rewatching previews is that I don't hear the echo in the "Yes" at the end.  It could be that Ben is struggling to admit that to JoJo and so that is why it comes out differently, but I am now starting to wonder if he doesn't confirm outright that he loves Lauren too?  However, they are making such a HUGE deal of this shocking confessing I don't see them building it up then it being completely false.  There is too much riding on that.  VO during certain situations/dates is one thing, VO during a pivital confession is a whole other thing.  I don't ever remember the producers ever doing something that drastic to the lead.

I agree that they have made a huge deal out of Ben's bathroom confession ni the preview, and if they are going to put that much attention onto something, do they really want it to be advertised as a full conversation with Jojo, only to have the viewers later watch it and see that it was spliced and diced from 2 separate conversations? TPTB want to trick us but they don't want the pull the curtain completely wide open and show us how 'the sausage is made'.

The dialogue goes like this:

J: I need something from you.
B: I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor.
B: And...
B: Hey...
B: I love you.
B: I'm in love with you.
J: But you love her too.
B: Yes.

We know 2 things for sure from this conversation:

1) that Jojo said to someone "I need something from you".

I do believe that was said to Ben, meaning that she needed some reassurance that she was F1. Could Jojo have said that at a completely different time to a different person with a completely different context? Sure, I suppose. But, because the next line of dialogue from Ben appears to be a response to that request and it contains the same echo tone, ("I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor" aka I am here fighting for you, for us), I personally believe those 2 lines go together. So that puts Jojo and Ben in the bathroom sitting on the floor. Now, if you don't agree with me that those 2 lines of dialogue fit so well together that it proves they go together, then I suppose you could argue that Jojo and Ben were never together on a bathroom floor, and that "I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor" was actually what occurred with Lauren or some other completely random time.

One other troubling thing sticks out to me. The SC of the bathroom shows a coral colored clothing object hanging near the shower. Lauren is shown wearing a coral colored bathing suit in the preview clips. Is the footage, therefore being shot from Lauren's bathroom? Did the lines 2 thru 6 take place with Lauren in Lauren's bathroom, with Jojo's VOs at the beginning and end spliced in? Possible. But I agree with Loco that that's getting super creative with what is show to be a pivotal conversation. Pivotal based simply on the controversial nature of the content of what is being confessed, that Ben is in love with 2 of the woman. THAT is shocking enough, why go to such lengths to dummy up a supposed conversation between him and Jojo about it?

Also, the coral clothing may not be a bathing suit at all. It has a long tie, so it could be a robe.

Or it could be Lauren's bathing suit in Lauren's bathroom, because they shot dummy footage of Lauren's bathroom to splice into the Ben and Jojo conversation. Why would film footage on Ben and a woman sitting on the bathroom floor necessarily be shot from that angle? Would the camera man shoot down at the couple or would he get down onto the floor too? IDK. But it seems like if a woman retreated to a bathroom because she was upset, and Ben followed her inside the bathroom to find her slumped on the floor in tears, Ben would probably say to heck with you camera people, I'm shutting/locking the door to have an important conversation in order to save my relationship. At the very least, I think Ben would object to having a cameraman cozy up to him and the girl on the floor. I mean, a little personal space does seem in order, IMO. So, was the footage shot at a different time? Or in a different place? We may have film and VO that do not match up.

2) We know that Jojo says "But you love her too". This had to have been said to Ben, right? So, it makes sense that Ben must have told Jojo that he also loved Lauren. Now, the only answer that makes logical sense is "Yes" because Jojo is basically repeated back to Ben what she was told by Ben, that he loves Lauren too. So, I feel confident believing that the "But you love her too" and the "Yes" are in the proper sequence.

What remains to be seen in the finale is whether that was an actual conversation and if lines "and..." "hey..." "I love you" "I'm in love with you" were actually said to Jojo. But, I"m sticking with my gut that says Yes, it was a full conversation with Jojo and the cliffhanger may just be when they go to commercial right after he says Yes, and next up are the helicopters delivering the women to the FRC.  

JMHOAA.

Oh - just thought of another thing to add to my two cents above. Amazing what you think of when your mind wanders as you are doing the ironing!

One of the more experienced posters on this site once said something very wise and that has always stuck in my head (sorry can't remember who, so can't give the credit). It was something like this - "screen caps don't lie but TPTB do". And we have had proof of that truth over many seasons.

MiaHawk wrote:

locoforbach wrote:I agree Mia, you can hear the echo of words in the bathroom conversation.  Unless Ben went into a bathroom to do the VO then I think the conversation is authentic.  What I did notice when rewatching previews is that I don't hear the echo in the "Yes" at the end.  It could be that Ben is struggling to admit that to JoJo and so that is why it comes out differently, but I am now starting to wonder if he doesn't confirm outright that he loves Lauren too?  However, they are making such a HUGE deal of this shocking confessing I don't see them building it up then it being completely false.  There is too much riding on that.  VO during certain situations/dates is one thing, VO during a pivital confession is a whole other thing.  I don't ever remember the producers ever doing something that drastic to the lead.

I agree that they have made a huge deal out of Ben's bathroom confession ni the preview, and if they are going to put that much attention onto something, do they really want it to be advertised as a full conversation with Jojo, only to have the viewers later watch it and see that it was spliced and diced from 2 separate conversations? TPTB want to trick us but they don't want the pull the curtain completely wide open and show us how 'the sausage is made'.

The dialogue goes like this:

J: I need something from you.
B: I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor.
B: And...
B: Hey...
B: I love you.
B: I'm in love with you.
J: But you love her too.
B: Yes.

We know 2 things for sure from this conversation:

1) that Jojo said to someone "I need something from you".

I do believe that was said to Ben, meaning that she needed some reassurance that she was F1. Could Jojo have said that at a completely different time to a different person with a completely different context? Sure, I suppose. But, because the next line of dialogue from Ben appears to be a response to that request and it contains the same echo tone, ("I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor" aka I am here fighting for you, for us), I personally believe those 2 lines go together. So that puts Jojo and Ben in the bathroom sitting on the floor. Now, if you don't agree with me that those 2 lines of dialogue fit so well together that it proves they go together, then I suppose you could argue that Jojo and Ben were never together on a bathroom floor, and that "I'm sitting here, on a bathroom floor" was actually what occurred with Lauren or some other completely random time.

One other troubling thing sticks out to me. The SC of the bathroom shows a coral colored clothing object hanging near the shower. Lauren is shown wearing a coral colored bathing suit in the preview clips. Is the footage, therefore being shot from Lauren's bathroom? Did the lines 2 thru 6 take place with Lauren in Lauren's bathroom, with Jojo's VOs at the beginning and end spliced in? Possible. But I agree with Loco that that's getting super creative with what is show to be a pivotal conversation. Pivotal based simply on the controversial nature of the content of what is being confessed, that Ben is in love with 2 of the woman. THAT is shocking enough, why go to such lengths to dummy up a supposed conversation between him and Jojo about it?

Also, the coral clothing may not be a bathing suit at all. It has a long tie, so it could be a robe.

Or it could be Lauren's bathing suit in Lauren's bathroom, because they shot dummy footage of Lauren's bathroom to splice into the Ben and Jojo conversation. Why would film footage on Ben and a woman sitting on the bathroom floor necessarily be shot from that angle? Would the camera man shoot down at the couple or would he get down onto the floor too? IDK. But it seems like if a woman retreated to a bathroom because she was upset, and Ben followed her inside the bathroom to find her slumped on the floor in tears, Ben would probably say to heck with you camera people, I'm shutting/locking the door to have an important conversation in order to save my relationship. At the very least, I think Ben would object to having a cameraman cozy up to him and the girl on the floor. I mean, a little personal space does seem in order, IMO. So, was the footage shot at a different time? Or in a different place? We may have film and VO that do not match up.

2) We know that Jojo says "But you love her too". This had to have been said to Ben, right? So, it makes sense that Ben must have told Jojo that he also loved Lauren. Now, the only answer that makes logical sense is "Yes" because Jojo is basically repeated back to Ben what she was told by Ben, that he loves Lauren too. So, I feel confident believing that the "But you love her too" and the "Yes" are in the proper sequence.

What remains to be seen in the finale is whether that was an actual conversation and if lines "and..." "hey..." "I love you" "I'm in love with you" were actually said to Jojo. But, I"m sticking with my gut that says Yes, it was a full conversation with Jojo and the cliffhanger may just be when they go to commercial right after he says Yes, and next up are the helicopters delivering the women to the FRC.  

JMHOAA.

Im sure alot of that bathroom scene is spliced and diced , we hear voices and we know they are in the bathroom but I still say it's Lauren that he is in that bathroom with. I could be wrong but that's what im getting out of it. jmo

Sorry, didn't mean to post and run... it's been one of those days, so I left work, grabbed my pup and went for a run.

Here's the preview:



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