Final Rose Ceremony - Screencaps - Discussion

agentcurls wrote:

Love_Me wrote:Maybe I don't want to know, but do you think Ben gets on his knee to purpose and they show the ring he picked out as he asks her "Will you marry me?"

you may see the rings that both pick out via NL...may not see Ben's ring as he proposes...you might see JP's ring up close ATFR

Thanks agentcurls! So maybe Ben gets on his knee, but Ashley helps him up before he opens the ring box?

I guess my thoughts on whether Ben should have seen the "red flags" that Ashley wasn't as into him as he thought, or shouldn't have dismissed JP as a contender as well, come down to this. Ben admitted after the fact that his mistake was being overconfident, and that it was a conscious decision to purposely ignore any thoughts about what was happening with any of the other guys, including JP. It was how he was able to maintain his calm demeanor throughout the process. Perhaps if he had considered what might be happening between Ashley and JP, instead of just basing everything on how he and he alone was feeling (and assuming that Ashley must reciprocate those feelings), we would have seen Ben's jealous side come out, which may have been even worse than JP's, and viewers would be criticizing him and speculating on his mental stability the same way some did with JP. Instead, going the route that he did would have turned out to be a wise decision on Ben's part if only he had really been F1, but as it did turn out, it sort of backfired on him, as he was left totally flummoxed and unprepared for the rejection. You make choices and then you have to live with the consequences, good or bad.

ironcat wrote:I guess my thoughts on whether Ben should have seen the "red flags" that Ashley wasn't as into him as he thought, or shouldn't have dismissed JP as a contender as well, come down to this. Ben admitted after the fact that his mistake was being overconfident, and that it was a conscious decision to purposely ignore any thoughts about what was happening with any of the other guys, including JP. It was how he was able to maintain his calm demeanor throughout the process. Perhaps if he had considered what might be happening between Ashley and JP, instead of just basing everything on how he and he alone was feeling (and assuming that Ashley must reciprocate those feelings), we would have seen Ben's jealous side come out, which may have been even worse than JP's, and viewers would be criticizing him and speculating on his mental stability the same way some did with JP. Instead, going the route that he did would have turned out to be a wise decision on Ben's part if only he had really been F1, but as it did turn out, it sort of backfired on him, as he was left totally flummoxed and unprepared for the rejection. You make choices and then you have to live with the consequences, good or bad.

So very true.

ironcat wrote:... You make choices and then you have to live with the consequences, good or bad.

IC, yes, and I guess we could have guessed because of the foreshadowing that Ben gave us talking with JP and Blake about how you can't think about what goes on with Ashley and others.... otherwise, it will drive you crazy. This is exactly what Ben did; put everyone and everything else out of his mind so that all he focused on was how he was with Ashley-- I don't even think he even bothered to analyze how Ashley was with him. I think if he had, he would have been able to have seen some of the red flags-- ie: less than passionate kissing, friendly interactions, etc... (and, I KNOW that we aren't shown everything but I contend that their alone time did not consist of passionate kissing and deeper context conversations. This is JMO.)

Ben would certainly not be the first person to think that such a deep level of friendship - which clearly was reciprocated - was precisely what is needed for a good marriage. He clearly felt attracted to her, she said she was to him, and they got along swimmingly - perhaps he did not have to take things for a "test run" to believe what they had together could go the distance. I think he had a deep trust in Ashley.... he was, more than anything, totally naive about TB process, and her "job" therein. jmho

LibbyBell wrote:This is exactly what Ben did; put everyone and everything else out of his mind so that all he focused on was how he was with Ashley-- I don't even think he even bothered to analyze how Ashley was with him.

This is a very astute and I think accurate observation of Ben. I don't think he ever really gave consideration to Ashley's side of the equation and that led him to be totally blindsided when he learned that she didn't feel the way about him that he felt about her. Adopting a position in a relationship that "because I love her she has to love me" is probably not a good idea.

alsoaktchr wrote:Ben would certainly not be the first person to think that such a deep level of friendship - which clearly was reciprocated - was precisely what is needed for a good marriage. He clearly felt attracted to her, she said she was to him, and they got along swimmingly - perhaps he did not have to take things for a "test run" to believe what they had together could go the distance. I think he had a deep trust in Ashley.... he was, more than anything, totally naive about TB process, and her "job" therein. jmho

All this makes perfect sense, except again for the fact that he wasn't the only guy left in the game, and he had no idea whether Ashley was operating using the same set of priorities as he was. He chose to allow himself to become overconfident, and I believe he also used the word complacent, which means since he already assumed he'd won, he apparently felt it unnecessary to use his time to further ascertain if Ashley was indeed in total agreement with him on these points, and if not, to attempt to "plead his case" to her, or even question what else she may have been looking for.

And yes, it's a naive approach to take when one knows he isn't in a committed, exclusive relationship, let alone on TB.

I don't recall Ben's using "games" /"win/lose" terminology w/r/t Ashley....? Perhaps their communication was not as clearcut as it needed to be, but I am not buying that he was in their relationship alone. Though it's hard to completely divorce one's ego from relationships, I saw little precedent in any prior episode for (edited) Ben as anything but considerate and caring. Something Ashley was saying/doing, albeit perhaps unwittingly, was serving to give Ben the confidence needed to go down on 1 knee. Short of asking her point-blank on their last dates, that was the best he could do.

Before I retreat once again to the Ben thread, I wanted to comment on the advisability of his asking for her input before he proposed. If I read the scoopage correctly (not certain), I took it that Ashley tried to speak and nothing came out. Ben's choosing to speak at that point could well have looked to him as a way of "helping" her, and/or as giving her the certainty/conviction she'd long been hinting she needed from her guys. Yes, he went down in flames. But I'm hard-pressed to see it as a totally self-absorbed act on his part, as some may choose to characterize it. Just because he was choosing not to think about JP doesn't mean he was not thinking about Ashley. Could just be as simple as that he misinterpreted her kindnesses to him, and her joy with him. And the anger which followed may well be more with himself for that misinterpretation. We will see a bit better on Monday. Many are now applauding Ed's approach with Jillian - oddly enough, because I remember a LOT of people who at the time saw that as evidence that Ed was "hedging his bets".... yet additional evidence of his less-than-total investment in Jed. At least the same charge cannot be leveled against Ben....
JMHO.
Peace!

I think this is a fair assessment. I am sorry that you feel the need to retreat to the Ben section, if that is the case. I am really looking forward to see what we actually can see with our own eyes rather than everyone's assumptions to this point. I love posts like yours, Alsoaktchr, even though I am a JP/Ash fan, because they are thoughtful and measured.

alsoaktchr wrote:I don't recall Ben's using "games" /"win/lose" terminology w/r/t Ashley....? Perhaps their communication was not as clearcut as it needed to be, but I am not buying that he was in their relationship alone. Though it's hard to completely divorce one's ego from relationships, I saw little precedent in any prior episode for (edited) Ben as anything but considerate and caring. Something Ashley was saying/doing, albeit perhaps unwittingly, was serving to give Ben the confidence needed to go down on 1 knee. Short of asking her point-blank on their last dates, that was the best he could do.

Before I retreat once again to the Ben thread, I wanted to comment on the advisability of his asking for her input before he proposed. If I read the scoopage correctly (not certain), I took it that Ashley tried to speak and nothing came out. Ben's choosing to speak at that point could well have looked to him as a way of "helping" her, and/or as giving her the certainty/conviction she'd long been hinting she needed from her guys. Yes, he went down in flames. But I'm hard-pressed to see it as a totally self-absorbed act on his part, as some may choose to characterize it. Just because he was choosing not to think about JP doesn't mean he was not thinking about Ashley. Could just be as simple as that he misinterpreted her kindnesses to him, and her joy with him. And the anger which followed may well be more with himself for that misinterpretation. We will see a bit better on Monday. Many are now applauding Ed's approach with Jillian - oddly enough, because I remember a LOT of people who at the time saw that as evidence that Ed was "hedging his bets".... yet additional evidence of his less-than-total investment in Jed. At least the same charge cannot be leveled against Ben....
JMHO.
Peace!

When I used the word, "won", I didn't mean that Ben strictly viewed this as a competition, I perhaps should have said, he assumed he was F1, and acted and made judgments as if he and Ashley were already in a monogamous relationship, which they were not. Although it rarely happens in real life, if you know that the woman you're in love with is also dating someone else, you should assume that if you choose to propose to her, there is at least some chance you might get turned down. That Ben ignored that logic proved to be his downfall.

Regarding Ed, I didn't mind that he didn't come straight out and propose to Jill, but it was the way he stopped, and then explicitly said, I won't go any further until you tell me if you love me, or something like that. Roberto confessed his feelings and then gave Ali a chance to respond before he proposed as well (and I believe JP does the same), which is fine. But I just think it was a little tacky to tell the woman specifically what she needs to do or say in order to get a proposal out of him. Good old Ed!

Peace to you too, and no need to retreat to the Ben section! I don't think anyone is slamming Ben, just analyzing why it seems he was so sure his proposal was going to be accepted, when the opposite was really the case. In past seasons, not every F2 has walked into the FRC with such misplaced confidence, so it's a valid issue.

alsoaktchr wrote:I don't recall Ben's using "games" /"win/lose" terminology w/r/t Ashley....? Perhaps their communication was not as clearcut as it needed to be, but I am not buying that he was in their relationship alone. Though it's hard to completely divorce one's ego from relationships, I saw little precedent in any prior episode for (edited) Ben as anything but considerate and caring. Something Ashley was saying/doing, albeit perhaps unwittingly, was serving to give Ben the confidence needed to go down on 1 knee. Short of asking her point-blank on their last dates, that was the best he could do.

Before I retreat once again to the Ben thread, I wanted to comment on the advisability of his asking for her input before he proposed. If I read the scoopage correctly (not certain), I took it that Ashley tried to speak and nothing came out. Ben's choosing to speak at that point could well have looked to him as a way of "helping" her, and/or as giving her the certainty/conviction she'd long been hinting she needed from her guys. Yes, he went down in flames. But I'm hard-pressed to see it as a totally self-absorbed act on his part, as some may choose to characterize it. Just because he was choosing not to think about JP doesn't mean he was not thinking about Ashley. Could just be as simple as that he misinterpreted her kindnesses to him, and her joy with him. And the anger which followed may well be more with himself for that misinterpretation. We will see a bit better on Monday. Many are now applauding Ed's approach with Jillian - oddly enough, because I remember a LOT of people who at the time saw that as evidence that Ed was "hedging his bets".... yet additional evidence of his less-than-total investment in Jed. At least the same charge cannot be leveled against Ben....
JMHO.
Peace!

No need to retreat. You have a right to your opinion and it's possible that you are correct. We may never know, but we should have a better idea once we see it play out for ourselves. Just because you don't have a "popular" opinion doesn't make it less valid.

Like all here, I will be heartbroken for Ben tomorrow night, like I am with all F2 when they are let go. I feel really bad for both Ben and Ashley. Something tells me, that after allowing Ali to let Chris go early last year, which had never been done before, and isn't likely to be done again, that TPTB really pushed for the two proposals this time, just for the shock to the audience, if nothing else. They didn't care if it hurt Ben, and they didn't care how it would make Ashley look in some eyes. I'm not going to criticize either of these two for how this came to be, because I am all too aware, as we all are, of the mind games TPTB play on these people to get the result they want. And IMO, the two proposals is exactly what they wanted to happen.