Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #1

[Guest]

Reminds me of the old saying 'what goes around, comes around'.

It's rather astounding that those who said that JP is jealous, bad tempered and much worst, with no compassion or understanding that it was because he loves Ashley and it stung to see her interact with other guys & Ben ~
now it's ok and justified for Ben to be bad tempered, mad, storm off the FRC and jealous that he was not F1.
Pot, meet Kettle.

[skitts]

Regardless of how the finale plays out, Ashley should have had the wear-withall to stop Ben before he got down to propose. I don't think she has the level of emotional maturity to pull it off. I believe that will come in time. Yes, she has been through the ringer emotionally during this journey. Hell, I feel like I've been put through that ringer just watching her! I'll give her that! I do not believe she would have intentionally wanted to react that way, but got caught up in 'fear of the moment'. Yes, she should have been prepared for it, but caved. It should never have happened and Ashley was in the wrong regardless of TPTB prompting. Plain and simple! Very excited for the new cupcake couple, but Ash screwed up royally!

[Ayana]

Are there articles from Ryan & Ames saying they saw the JP connection?

http://www.wetpaint.com/the-bachelorette/articles/new-interview-ryan-park-is-not-sure-hed-want-to-be-the-next-bachelor

I actually like Ryan a lot more after reading this interview and I won't complain too much if he ends up being the Bachelor.

[chaslom4]

It's interesting what Ash says in one of the new interview vids about it being easy for people who aren't there to look at a situation and say what you would have done instead. She goes on to say the whole thing is a psychological struggle.

[Guest]

Personally, it surprises me that any guy on this show would propose before the lead has told them of her decision. But I think without seeing it, it's hard to say if anyone is at "fault" (except maybe TPTB if they talked Ben into doing it). JMO and it may change after watching.

[sjcaligurl]

Ben asked her to let him talk first. While the premise of the show is to have proposals from suitors at the end people sure seem to be opposed to it happening. Ben wanted to take charge and he did. Again I ask, what is the big deal with him proposing and why is it humiliating? Proposals are questions and questions have answers - not all of which are positive. Now that these days people date forever, plan to get engaged, pick out their own ring ... proposals are just a formality for a foregone conclusion. Is that why people get so mad? People demand/expect a ring and the guy knows she is going to say yes? There is no romance in that at all. I'm sorry Ben came in so sure that he didn't let her get her rejection out first. That's why 'communication' is so important. From the spoiler we got, sounds like Ashley started smiling the minute she saw JP and he was able to pick up that things were going to go his way. If she'd been about to reject him, he would have known and probably would have turned away before she got it out.

It may not be so bad. Ben was understandably hurt and there is no good way to be hurt. In the end he can't blame her for opening his heart no matter what happened. JP had a broken heart too but she couldn't chose him simply because of that anymore than she could pick Ben because he'd come out of hiding. Sometimes you don't want to hear an explanation or even think about it so he handled things the best way he could. He was never lacking female attention I don't believe, he just wasn't appreciating it the way he should have been and he wasn't reciprocating it either. Maybe he knows how it feels for the women he's shut out while he was in grief.

[JBF]

I didn't have a problem with Ben opening up to his mom on his HTD and thought it was a natural progression from finally tearing down his emotional walls through the show experience, to reaching a moment of clarity that he wanted to share with his mother about his father's death.

As to whether he is cocky or overconfident, I'm reserving judgment until we see his behavior on Monday's show. The dynamic the producers are setting up is obviously the confident one (Ben) vs the scared one (JP), with the scared one winning of course, because karma's a biotch. I also am interested to see how he comes across on ATFR and if he's still in denial about the whole thing.

My take on Ben closely matches yours, but I’ll add a few other “dimensions” here.

I often wonder if JP's own comment regarding mind**** back in Taiwan could even be viewed as a "foreshadow warning" for Ben. Ben is SO sociable and outgoing with others that, maybe, he tends to take what others say a little too seriously. In his abc.com bio, he lists a group trip with nine buddies as a high point in his life, while JP traveled alone in a walkabout-like journey to Australia. It is obvious which of the final two has the most friends… and is more influenced by friends… and just maybe (*gasp* we hope not but you never know) his Fleissian “handlers” and PI interviewers as well.

***********************

Different subject matter here, but also relating to Ben… and JP and Chrystie too.

I’m also going to get a bit “windy” here, so hope nobody reading this feels too “blown away” and lost here.

A month ago, on the Fun thread, a couple of us checked out the astrology stuff on Ben and JP. One’s a Virgo and the other a Pisces, both “mutable” signs, but Ben has a lot of other mutable signs (counting moon, etc.) while JP has lots of “fixed” signs. Even if you have no clue what all of this mumble-jumble means, you can easily see how different these two are when alone with Ashley.

Ben is a go-with-the-flow fun guy who claims the two of them “are going places”, sometimes taking wrong turns on the scooter (Chris Harrison even pointed that one out I think), but… oh well! They enjoy sight-seeing, trying out new things, enjoying the wine and getting a little into “trouble”.

It is rather interesting that Ben had his first 1 on 1 date the same week William got the axe in Chaing Muy. Willie had that wild let’s-get-married-date in which he never said “no” to anything she suggested; he just did what she told him. Both shared a discussion about an alcoholic father and similar disorganized backgrounds. (Both Ash and Willie resembled Brad in this regard, i.e. dad not there.) Ben had a more stable upbringing than Willie (his dad was there for him). However, he shares with Willie that “yeah I’m game”/ “surprise me” mentality.

Jordan (who is not as fond of surprises) told Ashley directly back in episode #2, “WE got to talk!” and she chirps “Oh no, am I in trouble?” We all laughed at that, but I think it reflects what she wants and needs in her life. When roller-skating, she got giddy and excited and he barked rather sternly “PLEASE Be careful!” Now, maybe some of you watching may think… oh no… he is taking charge of his little woman! Only that is not how she takes it… instead, she said in Fiji that he’s her “rock” in this very bumpy journey. He is probably also quite stubborn (and yeah… jealous), but that is exactly what a girl whose dad was never there for her wants. She is constantly seeking comfort, but the only time she says that with Ben was when they were on the scooter. On the other hand, she is completely relaxed with JP, because no matter what happens, he will help her get through it. The more “fixed” his personality the better! In any case, he still allows her to be her goofy dorky self.

The quote a few of you here were fishing for from her hometown date with Brad was this one: “I think my family has an inflated sense of my confidence. I think they see me in these situations when I’m, like, comfortable. They do NOT see me when I’m out of my element.”

Of course, JP has had to help her when she was out of her element.

Chrystie to Brad: “She works hard. She plays hard. She has a rich life and she wants to share it with someone who also has a rich life who is also just as excited… y’know… about the future like she is.”

I’m just guessing here that Chrystie sees JP as very fixed and too “stable”, but also… and we can’t blame her for this… knows NOTHING about Bentley or her melt down at the comedy roast, in addition to all of her other insecurities brought out on this show.

More fore-shadowing from Brad’s hometown visit?

Ash PI: I’m feeling the closest I have ever felt to being in love with Brad but if my parents were to be, y’know, hesitant about it, I would definitely take a step back and reevaluate the situation.

Perhaps one she should listen to is her step-dad, Mike… despite the fact that he wasn’t there EARLY in her life. When Brad visited, he PI-ed: “He feels like he really likes Ashley, but if he really loves her and respects her ambition and what she wants in life, he should support her 100% and that’s what I want to ask Brad.” My impression of Mike on that date was that he was a family involved “outsider” looking at Ashley a little more objectively than those closest to her.

[Guest]

Great post, JBF. My only suggestion is to listen again at the roller rink. IMO he doesn't say it sternly at all. Just more like sweet concern that she's going to fall and break her neck. He doesn't raise his voice or bark at her at all, he's almost whispering it, like "please, don't let her get hurt", when he says "please, be careful" ~ it's one of the sweetest parts of that date to me.

[JBF]

Great post, JBF. My only suggestion is to listen again at the roller rink. IMO he doesn't say it sternly at all. Just more like sweet concern that she's going to fall and break her neck. He doesn't raise his voice or bark at her at all, he's almost whispering it, like "please, don't let her get hurt", when he says "please, be careful" ~ it's one of the sweetest parts of that date to me.

When I said "stern", I meant it in the best way of course.

Oh no... I took it the same way you did! It was a highlight for me... and she LOVED it!

... and he is the one that falls!

[Guest]

You are so great with the phase connections JBF "he's the one who falls" and show me things
I never connected. :missclap:

[atem]

It sure is hard waiting for the finale! I guess there's nothing like seeing it for yourself, even when you know the end.

[Guest]

Reminds me of the old saying 'what goes around, comes around'.

It's rather astounding that those who said that JP is jealous, bad tempered and much worst, with no compassion or understanding that it was because he loves Ashley and it stung to see her interact with other guys & Ben ~
now it's ok and justified for Ben to be bad tempered, mad, storm off the FRC and jealous that he was not F1.
Pot, meet Kettle.

Did not plan on returning to this thread, but I think the majority of posters who are here currently empathizing with Ben and expressing disappointment with Ashley re: proposal tended to steer away from criticism of JP's temper. At least this poster did. I would appreciate not being called either a Pot or a Kettle.... though with the time spent in front of the computer lately I could see the resemblance...

Once again, how do we know he wasn't more upset with himself for being suckered into things than he was with Ashley?

And if her big day was in fact ruined, she might've been able to prevent that - or at least keep the damage, inherent in the process, to a minimum. (btw I will be looking to see whom she labels as "cruel" - is it Ben or herself? or TPTB??)

I am not praising Ben for getting angry. I too wish he had been more gracious, if not for Ashley's sake, then for his own, and for the ability to end this process with the same maturity I felt he showed through just about all of it. But I totally understand his anger. I have a harder time making excuses for Ashley partly because I remember her behavior on Brad's season, and also because I was less than thrilled with her behavior towards a number of her own guys. But certainly no one can take away from her that she was always honest with, and considerate of, her fiance, which indeed bodes well for their relationship. jmho

[Sponsored content]