Re: Episode 11 - 8/1 Finale - Discussion - Thread #1

[pavalygurl]

Just for the record. I know this is a public board which can be accessed by anyone. Believe me, I think before I post and I never say something here I would not say in person, to that person.

[kdubs_ca]

Deleted

[sjcaligurl]

: Did anyone else notice how at the F2 "RC" toast it appeared Ashley was speaking only to Ben for a good deal of it? Could have been editing, I realize.... and/or her overcompensating and not wanting to make her preference of JP too obvious. But I did wonder if that was part of the reason Ben felt he had an edge....???

I'm not convinced Ben was "competing". I just tend to think he too got sucked up into some fairytale dreaming.... till the bubble burst. But I appear to be in the minority so I'll hush up now. :missspeak:

I sincerely hope you don't feel that you have to hush up. I want to hear the perspective of Ben fans. I am also trying to be respectful of your feelings, while still being able to give my thoughts. Some of us may feel differently after we finally see what happens at the FRC with our own eyes.

My sense of it was that Ben seemed confident for some time. I remember how he mentioned the HTD to Ashley and spoke as if it was a done deal that he would be given a rose that week. She told him that he sounded really confident. I think JP may have picked up on the confident vibe from Ben and that might have been one reason for his fear and insecurity. If you feel that you're the one and have it locked up, then that would explain why Ben seemed so unflappable and calm. We are used to seeing some anxiety as the season moves toward its inevitable ending. I wondered why Ben was such a sea of calm. Then there was JP, who had the chemistry and passion with Ashley that we all saw for ourselves. He was a bundle of nerves in Taipai. I think seeing Ben come back after being out overnight and observing his quiet calm and confidence, could only have made it worse for JP.

I know that it was said yesterday that some were blaming Ben for what happened at the FRC. I am certainly not blaming him in any way. All I am saying is that it might have helped if he considered the possibility that he wouldn't get picked. A little healthy doubt isn't a bad thing, especially with this show. I don't know if it's entirely possible prepare yourself for the FRC. However, if you have some nerves and apprehension, then maybe that helps to absorb the shock. I still remember Trista's season, where Charlie was brimming with confidence and Ryan was a nervous wreck. I find it hard to believe that Ben didn't at least consider at some point that Ashley might pick JP.

That's what happens when you are in the Frat Pack ... His boys were probably trashing JP the whole time because he was clear about his intentions with Ashley from the beginning. I'm sure JP heard conversations where he knew why some of the other guys were there. Ryan irritated him too but I don't think he feared Ryan the way some of the other guys did. So funny, all that time worrying about Ryan and they really should have been worrying about JP. The guys in the frat pack, dismissed JP and so did Ben.

Since Ryan wasn't in the reindeer games, he was able to see what was going on ... as were most of the guys who left prior to Hong Kong. When the numbers dwindled, certain guys got closer and they excluded some folks. Ames said he wasn't into the whole social thing. He was into Ashley so didn't notice a lot of other stuff. I can buy that he was in his own little world because that's how he is normally. LOL! Lucas didn't want to give JP proper credit. Ben is still somewhat in denial about what was missing ...

The difference between JP and the other guys was that JP wooed and pursued the girl and was open and honest with her almost the entire time. Most of the other guys were busy trying to be in control. Ryan tried too hard. Ames wanted to take it slow in the fast lane. Lucas wanted to drag her back to Texas by her hair and call her Sweetie. Ben wanted to dangle the l-bomb in front of her eyes like a pendulum and scare her by telling her that they wouldn't work if his mother/sister didn't like her ... Constantine wanted to be pursued because he's a Greek god (I don't know why he bugs me. He got a free ride and had nothing to offer but that weird looking face).

Of course the lead BB guys are ragging on JP. He won the girl and the hearts of millions of women across the country, by being/doing the opposite of what they do. They believe that you treat a woman as poorly as possible and she's a keeper if she sticks with you through it.

David Good's beaming light of misogyny has come through on 2 shows, his book and all over the internet. I'm sick of hearing about him complaining about 'cutesy' bachelorettes like Jillian, Ali and Ashley. Cute/Ugly/Otherwise, no decent woman would want him. Kovacks went on the show to promote his winery and has been as big of a pig as the rest of them. Still don't know what Wes' trip is except he's always whining about not having a good woman or something of the sort. When will they get a clue? I just want to see who gets sucked into that particular crowd and who lines up with the Graham, Stagliano, Jeremy crowd. Richard Mathy rides both side of the fence so I guess he's Switzerland. I think William violated mancode so he probably won't get into that crowd. Looks like Constantine, Nick might be in ... Hopefully they won't lure in Ben even though Kovacks is trying to latch onto him. I'll be done with Ben if he gets in with them.

[sjcaligurl]

I don't think women like Ashley, who place so much significance on attaching emotional feelings to a physical relationship, operate that way- test driving the F2 for fun or random experimenting. I also can't imagine she would do that to JP. Would he get over something like that? Not in a million years IMO.

BTW, can't believe I'm thinking about the sex habits of these people now. Truly a new low. LMAO.

No way she would do that to JP. Heck, she went slashing in Hong Kong to get rid of the 'virile' guys after she realized how upset he was about the dates. She didn't even want to try to pretend with Ryan. She just didn't want to spend the whole day with him and have JP wondering what she was doing with him. She took Ben the friend with the peck kisses, Ames the slow one and Constantine (who might as well have been her gay best friend) to the home town dates. Trista was praising Constantine too by saying that at least he didn't go to the FS and try to bang her! How was that going to happen when he barely touched her and had barely kissed her more than a couple of times for a couple of pecks? Some folks just don't use good sense. She gave Dino a graceful out but he doesn't need to milk it or I will be tweeting him with my opinion. LOL!

[pbmax]

I don't think women like Ashley, who place so much significance on attaching emotional feelngs to a physical relationship, operate that way- test driving the F2 for fun or random experimenting. I also can't imagine she would do that to JP. Would he get over something like that? Not in a million years IMO.

BTW, can't believe I'm thinking about the sex habits of these people now. Truly a new low. LMAO.

Oh I don't know, she sure had those legs wrapped around Bentley while she was in his arms. LOL, if the camera's could have disappeared, she may have not ended up in that bed alone and crying but with a :D I never buy into the FS sex but I got a strong feeling she definitely slept with JP and maybe Ben. Constantine wasn't having it, that's why he dipped before she could offer.

[Guest]

I don't think women like Ashley, who place so much significance on attaching emotional feelings to a physical relationship, operate that way- test driving the F2 for fun or random experimenting. I also can't imagine she would do that to JP. Would he get over something like that? Not in a million years IMO.

BTW, can't believe I'm thinking about the sex habits of these people now. Truly a new low. LMAO.

No way she would do that to JP. Heck, she went slashing in Hong Kong to get rid of the 'virile' guys after she realized how upset he was about the dates. She didn't even want to try to pretend with Ryan. She just didn't want to spend the whole day with him and have JP wondering what she was doing with him. She took Ben the friend with the peck kisses, Ames the slow one and Constantine (who might as well have been her gay best friend) to the home town dates. Trista was praising Constantine too by saying that at least he didn't go to the FS and try to bang her! How was that going to happen when he barely touched her and had barely kissed her more than a couple of times for a couple of pecks? Some folks just don't use good sense. She gave Dino a graceful out but he doesn't need to milk it or I will be tweeting him with my opinion. LOL!

ITA with both of you.

sjcaligurl. Love that you tweet and tell them. :yougogirl:

[Guest]

Caligurl--To add to list Wes and Ty both have music careers to promote. Also David is wrong about Ali. Even though I not a huge fan of hers, I have to admit she is a really pretty girl and the camera loves her. As is Ashley.... so Dave's cute girl statement, and I heard him say it too (I don't read their stupid blogs), I thought was stupid.

[Guest]

I don't think women like Ashley, who place so much significance on attaching emotional feelings to a physical relationship, operate that way- test driving the F2 for fun or random experimenting. I also can't imagine she would do that to JP. Would he get over something like that? Not in a million years IMO.

BTW, can't believe I'm thinking about the sex habits of these people now. Truly a new low. LMAO.

No way she would do that to JP. Heck, she went slashing in Hong Kong to get rid of the 'virile' guys after she realized how upset he was about the dates. She didn't even want to try to pretend with Ryan. She just didn't want to spend the whole day with him and have JP wondering what she was doing with him. She took Ben the friend with the peck kisses, Ames the slow one and Constantine (who might as well have been her gay best friend) to the home town dates. Trista was praising Constantine too by saying that at least he didn't go to the FS and try to bang her! How was that going to happen when he barely touched her and had barely kissed her more than a couple of times for a couple of pecks? Some folks just don't use good sense. She gave Dino a graceful out but he doesn't need to milk it or I will be tweeting him with my opinion. LOL!

ITA with both of you.

sjcaligurl. Love that you tweet and tell them. :yougogirl:

I agree with your statements too. Ashley had her sights on JP pretty early. When these other guys left after BNB including Dino, her attitude was like "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you leave" because she had already decided on the last two, and I think F1 as well. There were really just two she truly cared how they felt. I think Ali did the same thing. She was invested in the last 2 or 3 only.

[albean99]

Yes, we need to see exactly how this plays out, because the words Ben says can come across differently depending on his tone. However, I still feel that while everyone is free to react to heartbreak in their own way (as long as no violence is involved of course), how they react gives insight into either their character, or their real emotions, or both. In Ben's case, not being able to muster much graciousness, as appears to be the case at the very least, to me speaks not so much to his character (although I don't think he has the emotional maturity of a Reid or a Jason), but to a combination of his overconfidence and somewhat to a lack of real depth of feelings for Ashley. For all the talk of JP and his supposed competitiveness, I think ultimately Ben ended up dealing with it (albeit unconciously) more like a competition, assumed he had it "in the bag", and then got upset when he lost the prize. But I think by that point, for him, the act of losing was of more concern than the welfare of the prize.

I'm trying to stay out of defending Ben because I think it's gotten a little ridiculous but this annoys me. So you want Ben to be gracious after Ashley not only lets him get on one knee while still holding his hands and lets him propose? Plus the first words out of her mouth was that he didn't know how hard it was on her. You call that gracious? I don't. I don't blame him a bit for being angry and walking out. Whether he should have known it could happen is debatable but it doesn't absolve what Ashley did or in this case didn't do.

Speaking of Reid, he may have been okay at the FRC but he wasn't so much at the ATFR. I seem to remember him insinuating that something happened at the FD. I didn't think that was classy and compared badly to Kiptyn.

I guess I've learned that this is not a good thread if you're a Ben fan.

[DMBFan]

Are there articles from Ryan & Ames saying they saw the JP connection?

[Pattycake92]

Are there articles from Ryan & Ames saying they saw the JP connection?

http://www.wetpaint.com/the-bachelorette/articles/new-interview-ryan-park-is-not-sure-hed-want-to-be-the-next-bachelor

[ironcat]

Yes, we need to see exactly how this plays out, because the words Ben says can come across differently depending on his tone. However, I still feel that while everyone is free to react to heartbreak in their own way (as long as no violence is involved of course), how they react gives insight into either their character, or their real emotions, or both. In Ben's case, not being able to muster much graciousness, as appears to be the case at the very least, to me speaks not so much to his character (although I don't think he has the emotional maturity of a Reid or a Jason), but to a combination of his overconfidence and somewhat to a lack of real depth of feelings for Ashley. For all the talk of JP and his supposed competitiveness, I think ultimately Ben ended up dealing with it (albeit unconciously) more like a competition, assumed he had it "in the bag", and then got upset when he lost the prize. But I think by that point, for him, the act of losing was of more concern than the welfare of the prize.

I'm trying to stay out of defending Ben because I think it's gotten a little ridiculous but this annoys me. So you want Ben to be gracious after Ashley not only lets him get on one knee while still holding his hands and lets him propose? Plus the first words out of her mouth was that he didn't know how hard it was on her. You call that gracious? I don't. I don't blame him a bit for being angry and walking out. Whether he should have known it could happen is debatable but it doesn't absolve what Ashley did or in this case didn't do.

Speaking of Reid, he may have been okay at the FRC but he wasn't so much at the ATFR. I seem to remember him insinuating that something happened at the FD. I didn't think that was classy and compared badly to Kiptyn.

I guess I've learned that this is not a good thread if you're a Ben fan.

I don't want Ben to be anything that he is not, he has to be true to himself. What I'm saying is how somebody reacts when put in this situation depends on many things, including their emotional maturity, their attitude going in, the depth of their actual feelings, etc. Since Ben and JP IMO are very different men when it comes to those areas, I don't think their reactions would be the same. And I definitely don't believe that acting gracious after being dumped is a clear indication that the feelings weren't as strong as someone who gets angry, although of course it's easy to be gracious if one isn't that invested. The real challenge, which I find eminently commendable, is being able to be gracious even though your heart is breaking. It appears Ben wasn't able to meet it.

And yes, Reid was a little snarky after the fact at ATFR. But at least he acted like a perfect gentleman when it counted, and didn't ruin Jill's big proposal day any more than it was already ruined, by swallowing his pride and pain and leaving her with class in Hawaii.

eta Let me put this another way. Some people seem to be commending Ben for handling things the way he did. That is their right, but I don't find his behavior to be something to be applauded, anymore than I think Ashley's behavior was exemplary. Were they both human and imperfect in how they reacted? Absolutely.

eta One more thing. One of my mother's favorite expressions is "two wrongs don't make a right". I think that applies nicely here.

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