Re: Nick Viall - Bachelorette 10 - Discussion - #8

by MiaHawk Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:01 pm

SueSt wrote:
MiaHawk wrote:
GuardianAngel wrote:

Well said. I think that's the point some are trying to make, you summarized it perfectly.

All of the seasons are a bit different and the people on the seasons have their own unique relationships (good, bad, or ugly). Editing makes it difficult to ever know what truly occured. TPTB's manipulations and mind games are always a part of production. In Andi's season, I think it was well demonstrated that these manipulations can and do continue after the finale. I do not doubt that "things" may have been whispered around by certain friendly crew members prior to Chris' premiere in an attempt to gauge 'the temperature of the water' with Andi and Josh IF Nick were to also attend. IF Andi or Josh began to beat their chests or stamp their feet, it may have then gotten back to someone further up the foodchain and Nick's invitation was reneged or it was strongly advised not to attend. Heck, all they would have to say to Nick was that horrible Kelly was going to be there and he probably gladly declined.

Because this show is so highly edited and people are manipulated or are there for the wrong reasons from the start, I do not always judge the people or think I really know their character. I typically think character is what we see post- finale (at ATFR) and beyond. I just said above that Andi, Josh, and Nick could still be being manipulated by their friendly handler crew member buddies (who are really double agents), but I do strongly believe that Andi and Josh (to a lesser degree) have a particular personality type and continue to act accordingly.

It is my own personal opinion that Andi was doted upon and spoiled as a child (her words) and has grown into a materialistic, entitled woman. I feel she has a black or white view of the world...you are right or wrong, good or evil, with me or against me...which may be exactly what serves her well as an attorney but lends itself to a sort of harshness when it comes to personal relationships. In law, to hesitate, to shown any kind of ambivalence or wiggle room in a prosecution is a sign of a weak case, a flaw. And if you are being judged by your work, you in turn are seen as weak or flawed. That is not Andi's style. She is someone who fancies herself as a strong person and would rather go for the jugular than pull away from a fight (JPGand Nick). To me, this view of life is immature. She basically doesn't trust herself enough to be kind or forgiving to those who she perceives have wronged her. Hopefully she will grow and mature and change, but this little incident (if it occured as we are discussing here) just shows that she hasn't. It's easy to smile and be gracious when things are going your way. It's the true test of who you are when things aren't going your way. That's when true character shows. What I continue to see from her is a person who wants the sun to shine on her without any shadows cast. She craves the illusion of an in control, in the driver's seat, woman. Hopefully, in her inner circle she will be able to let her guard down and be real and accept others for being real, too. Otherwise, nobody will ever live up to her impossible standatds of perfection. JMHO.

Soooo true Mia. Thanks for articulating the nature of true character so beautifully.

And in contrast, to my eyes, is Nick, who aside from one (not terrible) airplane lapse (which he had the class to apologize for, I might add), has handled himself and continues to handle himself with kindness and grace. Interestingly, he retweeted a blog yesterday from a girl who didn't like him on the show but likes him now as a result of how he has presented himself since the breakup. Even Chris, an anti-Nick cheerleader on the show, has changed his tune and is more understanding and forgiving of Nick's actions.

I laugh at your comment about Andi being able to let her guard down in her inner circle. At MTP, when Nick was saying how nervous he was the first night, Patti said something like we're all nervous around her too... which to me indicates an deep rooted self-esteem problem (which I know sounds crazy to say considering how full of herself she is, but to me her overgrown ego is indicative of not being at peace with who she is internally, and having to put on airs, which, if I'm being honest, makes me feel sad for her).

I don't love Josh, but I do feel sorry for him... he's definitely got his hands full with Andi.

I agree with the bolded.

What follows are some of my own very personal (and non-professional) opinions of high achievers and their resulting low self-esteem when they realize that life is not always easy and they experience what I like to think of as "the grey areas of life". Included in that grey area are relationships with people, people who are naturally flawed.

I think that if you are conditioned as a child to accept nothing less than perfection from yourself in some area (could be academics, sports, dance, music, etc) and you are judged and ranked by the points you score or the grades you receive, then you are conditioned to see yourself as either a winner or a loser. And, as an extension of that, you view everyone else in those black and white terms. But, it gets tricky, because the world is such a grey place and not so easily divided into winners and losers. There's more than one way to 'win' or 'lose'. Because of this, you may create two separate classifications (you and a few others whom you perceive as capable of achieving greatness and all the other poor peons for whom the standards are set lower.) To accept flaws, in others or yourself, is to accept failure. And to accept failure makes you weak. And to be weak is to be despised or for the little people. You actually don't have contempt for the little people, because you know that inherently you are superior to them. They just are. And you exist on a plain above them---financially, socially, morally---you're just more evolved than they are. Except, you're not. You are still operating on a very simplistic, black or white, view of the world and of people. And your hubris is a mask for your deep rooted fear of being found out, of somebody recognizing that you are just like everyone else, you're not so superior after all. You are just like every one else. Unique and flawed.

by **GuardianAngel** Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:21 pm

Mia those are awesome analytical posts! yes

by Kashathediva Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:30 pm

With age, experience or just plain maturity, you are able to accept those grey areas hopefully sooner vs later. One day you wake up and realize you are just another grain of sand on the beach.

by SueSt Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:13 pm

MiaHawk wrote:
SueSt wrote:
MiaHawk wrote:

All of the seasons are a bit different and the people on the seasons have their own unique relationships (good, bad, or ugly). Editing makes it difficult to ever know what truly occured. TPTB's manipulations and mind games are always a part of production. In Andi's season, I think it was well demonstrated that these manipulations can and do continue after the finale. I do not doubt that "things" may have been whispered around by certain friendly crew members prior to Chris' premiere in an attempt to gauge 'the temperature of the water' with Andi and Josh IF Nick were to also attend. IF Andi or Josh began to beat their chests or stamp their feet, it may have then gotten back to someone further up the foodchain and Nick's invitation was reneged or it was strongly advised not to attend. Heck, all they would have to say to Nick was that horrible Kelly was going to be there and he probably gladly declined.

Because this show is so highly edited and people are manipulated or are there for the wrong reasons from the start, I do not always judge the people or think I really know their character. I typically think character is what we see post- finale (at ATFR) and beyond. I just said above that Andi, Josh, and Nick could still be being manipulated by their friendly handler crew member buddies (who are really double agents), but I do strongly believe that Andi and Josh (to a lesser degree) have a particular personality type and continue to act accordingly.

It is my own personal opinion that Andi was doted upon and spoiled as a child (her words) and has grown into a materialistic, entitled woman. I feel she has a black or white view of the world...you are right or wrong, good or evil, with me or against me...which may be exactly what serves her well as an attorney but lends itself to a sort of harshness when it comes to personal relationships. In law, to hesitate, to shown any kind of ambivalence or wiggle room in a prosecution is a sign of a weak case, a flaw. And if you are being judged by your work, you in turn are seen as weak or flawed. That is not Andi's style. She is someone who fancies herself as a strong person and would rather go for the jugular than pull away from a fight (JPGand Nick). To me, this view of life is immature. She basically doesn't trust herself enough to be kind or forgiving to those who she perceives have wronged her. Hopefully she will grow and mature and change, but this little incident (if it occured as we are discussing here) just shows that she hasn't. It's easy to smile and be gracious when things are going your way. It's the true test of who you are when things aren't going your way. That's when true character shows. What I continue to see from her is a person who wants the sun to shine on her without any shadows cast. She craves the illusion of an in control, in the driver's seat, woman. Hopefully, in her inner circle she will be able to let her guard down and be real and accept others for being real, too. Otherwise, nobody will ever live up to her impossible standatds of perfection. JMHO.

Soooo true Mia. Thanks for articulating the nature of true character so beautifully.

And in contrast, to my eyes, is Nick, who aside from one (not terrible) airplane lapse (which he had the class to apologize for, I might add), has handled himself and continues to handle himself with kindness and grace. Interestingly, he retweeted a blog yesterday from a girl who didn't like him on the show but likes him now as a result of how he has presented himself since the breakup. Even Chris, an anti-Nick cheerleader on the show, has changed his tune and is more understanding and forgiving of Nick's actions.

I laugh at your comment about Andi being able to let her guard down in her inner circle. At MTP, when Nick was saying how nervous he was the first night, Patti said something like we're all nervous around her too... which to me indicates an deep rooted self-esteem problem (which I know sounds crazy to say considering how full of herself she is, but to me her overgrown ego is indicative of not being at peace with who she is internally, and having to put on airs, which, if I'm being honest, makes me feel sad for her).

I don't love Josh, but I do feel sorry for him... he's definitely got his hands full with Andi.

I agree with the bolded.

What follows are some of my own very personal (and non-professional) opinions of high achievers and their resulting low self-esteem when they realize that life is not always easy and they experience what I like to think of as "the grey areas of life". Included in that grey area are relationships with people, people who are naturally flawed.

I think that if you are conditioned as a child to accept nothing less than perfection from yourself in some area (could be academics, sports, dance, music, etc) and you are judged and ranked by the points you score or the grades you receive, then you are conditioned to see yourself as either a winner or a loser. And, as an extension of that, you view everyone else in those black and white terms. But, it gets tricky, because the world is such a grey place and not so easily divided into winners and losers. There's more than one way to 'win' or 'lose'. Because of this, you may create two separate classifications (you and a few others whom you perceive as capable of achieving greatness and all the other poor peons for whom the standards are set lower.) To accept flaws, in others or yourself, is to accept failure. And to accept failure makes you weak. And to be weak is to be despised or for the little people. You actually don't have contempt for the little people, because you know that inherently you are superior to them. They just are. And you exist on a plain above them---financially, socially, morally---you're just more evolved than they are. Except, you're not. You are still operating on a very simplistic, black or white, view of the world and of people. And your hubris is a mask for your deep rooted fear of being found out, of somebody recognizing that you are just like everyone else, you're not so superior after all. You are just like every one else. Unique and flawed.

I agree, Mia. :yes:

And I think age is a big factor too... Andi's still relatively young and riding high... and without, it seems, having overcome many real emotional challenges.... to your great point of accepting that you can fail and are just like everyone else, unique and flawed!! :yes:

And it must be really bad for Andi, particularly when she can’t even accept advice from her own mom …

Interestingly, on their first one on one Nick talked about his broken engagement and how it taught him about life... and how he’s glad it happened since he might still think he's cooler than he is, had the breakup not occurred. And at some point, he knew, right, that Andi wasn’t there yet, and so he asks her in his letter if she ever had her heart broken... because on some level, he recognized that she was just being uber-protective, afraid of being vulnerable, accepting her imperfections and loving her flawed self (and him).

And so Andi chose the guy that will perpetuate the fantasy of perfection, the best guy on paper... and now is living the ‘good’ life, which I imagine is shockingly empty because it's all flash and no substance. And it’s so sad to me that she threw away something mature and authentic because she was afraid to take a chance on a real relationship; one that would require analysis, negotiation, compromise and vulnerability, traits, as you so aptly note, she is unable to tolerate.

by MiaHawk Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:13 pm

Kashathediva wrote:With age, experience or just plain maturity, you are able to accept those grey areas hopefully sooner vs later. One day you wake up and realize you are just another grain of sand on the beach.

Exactly.

by SueSt Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:17 pm

MiaHawk wrote:
Kashathediva wrote:With age, experience or just plain maturity, you are able to accept those grey areas hopefully sooner vs later. One day you wake up and realize you are just another grain of sand on the beach.

Exactly.

And here for the blink of an eye....

by **Norcalgal** Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:21 pm

Love all these thoughtful comments. Gives me something to chew on ...

by Rolly Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:49 pm

Norcalgal wrote:Love all these thoughtful comments. Gives me something to chew on ...

ITA....very interesting and thoughtful indeed. When all is said and done I am really really glad Nick did not end up with Andi. Andi and Josh are perfect for each other for however long it lasts...and it may last forever but I'm not sure I would bet money on it. Nick deserves someone wonderful in his life and clearly Andi is not "the one".

A side note, I totally disagree with those that think Nick did anything wrong with his question during ATFR. Her actions, having sex with him, confused him because he was clear that he was in love with her. I don't really care "that they all do it" so that makes it OK. Many people have sex just to have sex and I see nothing wrong with that unless you clearly know that the other person sees the significance of your actions to be much more meaningful. I think Andi did know that having sex with Nick would be send him a message. Because he is confused and this was the only opportunity to get clarity why shouldn't he ask? And why can't she just own it and take responsibility for her behavior? I think Andi knew she was going to choose Josh so why did she have sex with Nick? She was in love with Josh right? If you decide to have sex with all three in the FS you have to know that there is always a possibility that this information will come out. I think he deserved to have an answer to his question. Somehow she ends up the victim here?!? I just don't get it. no no

by soccermom333 Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:06 pm

Not going back to quote everything, but wanted to comment that Andi imho chose the one she could see a future with and the one she was in love with. Period. I don't believe her relationship is "shockingly empty" at all. In fact just the opposite. Smiley

She was not afraid of Nick or a real relationship. She chose who she wanted and has her "real" relationship with Josh. Smiley

by sdmom Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:36 pm

Rolly wrote:
Norcalgal wrote:Love all these thoughtful comments. Gives me something to chew on ...

ITA....very interesting and thoughtful indeed. When all is said and done I am really really glad Nick did not end up with Andi. Andi and Josh are perfect for each other for however long it lasts...and it may last forever but I'm not sure I would bet money on it. Nick deserves someone wonderful in his life and clearly Andi is not "the one".

A side note, I totally disagree with those that think Nick did anything wrong with his question during ATFR. Her actions, having sex with him, confused him because he was clear that he was in love with her. I don't really care "that they all do it" so that makes it OK. Many people have sex just to have sex and I see nothing wrong with that unless you clearly know that the other person sees the significance of your actions to be much more meaningful. I think Andi did know that having sex with Nick would be send him a message. Because he is confused and this was the only opportunity to get clarity why shouldn't he ask? And why can't she just own it and take responsibility for her behavior? I think Andi knew she was going to choose Josh so why did she have sex with Nick? She was in love with Josh right? If you decide to have sex with all three in the FS you have to know that there is always a possibility that this information will come out. I think he deserved to have an answer to his question. Somehow she ends up the victim here?!? I just don't get it.

Totally agree with the bolded parts. He used "making love" but not "having sex" or "sleeping together" because it meant something special for him.
Anyway, I don't want to discuss something that's happened months ago. I am interested in talking about what just happened.
It's after the show the true characters of all the contestants will be revealed. Nick going back to his job, staying off the limelight and quietly leading a normal life prove to me he's the guy I think he is.

by SueSt Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:46 pm

Rolly wrote:
Norcalgal wrote:Love all these thoughtful comments. Gives me something to chew on ...

ITA....very interesting and thoughtful indeed. When all is said and done I am really really glad Nick did not end up with Andi. Andi and Josh are perfect for each other for however long it lasts...and it may last forever but I'm not sure I would bet money on it. Nick deserves someone wonderful in his life and clearly Andi is not "the one".

A side note, I totally disagree with those that think Nick did anything wrong with his question during ATFR. Her actions, having sex with him, confused him because he was clear that he was in love with her. I don't really care "that they all do it" so that makes it OK. Many people have sex just to have sex and I see nothing wrong with that unless you clearly know that the other person sees the significance of your actions to be much more meaningful. I think Andi did know that having sex with Nick would be send him a message. Because he is confused and this was the only opportunity to get clarity why shouldn't he ask? And why can't she just own it and take responsibility for her behavior? I think Andi knew she was going to choose Josh so why did she have sex with Nick? She was in love with Josh right? If you decide to have sex with all three in the FS you have to know that there is always a possibility that this information will come out. I think he deserved to have an answer to his question. Somehow she ends up the victim here?!? I just don't get it.

I think Andi was in love with Nick or falling in love with him and so she slept with him; plain and simple. Her words and actions on the FS night left NO doubt for me. I don't think she knew it was Josh at that point. My theory is she knew after MTP... and that Hy had a lot to do with her choice.

I had ZERO problem with Nick asking the question. It was a fair question given the inconsistencies between Andi's claims and actions. I believe Andi lied to Nick at ATFR when she told him she never loved him in order to save face with Josh and the Murrays.

Victim is a choice in this case, it is a smokescreen; this is the persona Andi is projecting to ??? gain sympathy, extend her notoriety? but mostly to cover her indiscretions, prevent herself from acknowledging her part in this drama and from taking responsibility for what SHE did.

by aviej Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:03 pm

I am a JODI fan however I believe I can still appreciate logic and reason. I do believe that Andi was falling in love with Nick as well or in love with him at the point of the FS date. Contrary to your thoughts though of her choosing Josh at the MTP, I think in her FS date with Josh is when she switched to Josh. In the beginning Josh was the frontrunner, but when they had that lie detector test in Italy, IMHO, she pulled back and Nick became the frontrunner. IMO, she never allowed herself to fall completely for Josh because of her past and the Italy episode which raised doubts. In the dinner at the FS date, it is clear IMO, that Andi was a bit regretful and she said she didn't know for a while how Josh felt, which is why she forgot about him and focused on the next best, Nick. But in the FS date, especially when the cameras stopped rolling, it was Josh till the end. I do think however, that she may have said she never loved Nick to save face with Josh - I can see that happening. But to me, she clearly was conflicted with the two men, almost right down till the end.

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