Re: Andi Dorfman and Josh Murray Bachelorette 10 - Media - Twitter - General Discussion Thread #2

[luvlady345]

If you go by SM Andi and Josh are one of the most popular couples to ever come out of this franchise and really that's the only thing you can go by. Everything else is opinion of the individual.

[Kashathediva]

If I had to say what TPTB used as a barometer--ratings would be high on my list. Social media didn't bring ratings and it does not make the show's sponsors happy.

[luvlady345]

Well if that's the case none of the  female leads will be getting a wedding because  they are never as high as the male leads, like I said earlier in a post really who is surprised about the ratings? Women are other  women worst enemy. The worst male lead rating are better than the best female ... So really no surprise here.

[pander3575]

Well if that's the case none of the  female leads will be getting a wedding because  they are never as high as the male leads, like I said earlier in a post really who is surprised about the ratings? Women are other  women worst enemy. The worst male lead rating are better than the best female ... So really no surprise here.

Which is something I really don't understand. I'd much rather look at 25 good looking guys than 25 drama queens. I've always liked the Bachelorette better than any of the male leads.

[stuckinsc]

My point is Ashlee,IMO, made up something out of nothing, just to hurt Sean back,  because he didn't reciprocate her hmmm.. "LUVVV"!!

Andi was kind to her F2 by letting him go before the FRC.  And I still think Andi was an awesome 'rette,  not perfect, but still awesome.  Things happened post show, IMO, contributed to her demeanor at the ATFR.

I don't disagree, I was not an AshLee fan at all.

My point is that Sean handled his F2 and F3 with kindness and understanding that he had the power and broke their hearts.  Andi did not show that same kindness.  You and others thinks she did and excuse her because of Nick's actions.  As I said you made my point, AshLee attacked Sean on live tv and he was nothing but graceful.  Andi did not handle the same situation with the same kindness and grace.  

BTW, Nick was not completely innocent.

Truthfully this is all months ago now and they have moved on, so hopefully we can too!

I still think Vivi's point is valid. When you compare the two situations, they're completely different. Sean was able to be sweet to Lindsay because she was sweet to him. She didn't try to see him after the show completed. She didn't write him a letter telling him she still loved him, thought the decision he made was a mistake and mentioned the importance their relationship played in her life. Like I've stated before Sean and Lindsay left each other under interesting circumstances because of some of the words Sean chose to use. She respected him enough to be happy for him and to let it go. You could tell that she genuinely cared for him. Nick did the opposite of that.

In regards to crazy AshLee, what she did also doesn't compare to what Nick did. AshLee said that Sean said something that there was no real proof of and it was just ridiculous. She didn't tell the world Sean had sex with her and she didn't track him down for a couple of months either or bad mouth him and his fiancée on a plane and spoiled the ending.

There were far more issues Andi had to deal with than Sean. I guess for me, your points would ring more true if I thought Andi did anything awful at the ATFR because in my opinion, she handled it just fine. It was someone else who didn't. We all talk about moving on, but we're all here on the thread talking about it. Kind of hard to stop when it's always brought up.

Thankfully, it appears Andi and Josh are doing well together as a couple. I'm looking forward to seeing what their big announcement will be. I personally think it's just going to be that they're 100% televising the wedding.

Just a reminder. Vivi brought up the comparison in the first place with this post.

Why do people think that Andi and Josh are planning to rush into marriage? I know they said some announcement was forthcoming, but if it is about announcing a date, maybe that date is sometime next spring? I heard them say that they were considering marrying on the anniversary of their engagement, May 9. That's still more than 8 months away, so plenty of time, IMO, to make sure they're really compatible.

Regarding why the ATFR was "The Nick Show", for me, there's no mystery, and it has nothing to do with the producers' feelings about Andi or Josh. Nick was this season's villain, and even after filming ended, Nick kept the story and suspense alive by continuing to pursue Andi (or falling for the producers' manipulations to get him to continue to pursue her) and they were hoping/expecting to turn this series of events into an explosive episode, which is exactly what happened. (For all we know, they try this every season with the heartbroken F2, and Nick was the only one to fully take the bait.) They teased it enough to goose ratings for the ATFR, then because it was so explosive, they even got mentioned in TIME magazine, right? Couldn't have worked out better for them.

I agree. Especially with the bolded---IMO, they tried this with F2 in Sean's season, but Lindsay wouldn't do the dirty job for them 'cause she truly loved Sean. But they had more luck with the F3 instead...hence the most explosive WTA ever!!!

The season is over. Nick could have let go sooner, like other F2s. Though in the tradition of this board and the most beloved F2 ever on this board, Arie, it takes more than two to three months sometimes. I will give him a pass because I like him. I admit it. If he ever gets caught having a loud plane conversation again, I will supply the stones and let you all take aim at him, for not learning.

Andi could have been warmer and shown more compassion. I hope with time she might see that too. As they say you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. While as a prosecutor or litigator that take no prisoners go against me and you are wrong attitude may help in negotiations or a court of law, not all life is a court room and sometimes you have to compromise and learn from others not just think you are completely right. She is young and went through a fairly emotional crazy process to get here, so I will wait and see.

I wish Josh and Andi happiness, as I have said I think she is in transition, when she and he are ready, then I hope their wedding is wonderful and that they a great life.

Nick appears to be moving on too. He seems to have gotten the closure that he was seeking too.

I hope in the future we can discuss what Josh and Andi are doing now in this thread and discuss Nick in his thread. Since they are at least two weeks from having anything to do with each other, I hope we can stop going round and round about what did happen. Again, this is JMO.

[stuckinsc]

Well if that's the case none of the  female leads will be getting a wedding because  they are never as high as the male leads, like I said earlier in a post really who is surprised about the ratings? Women are other  women worst enemy. The worst male lead rating are better than the best female ... So really no surprise here.

Which is something I really don't understand.  I'd much rather look at 25 good looking guys than 25 drama queens.  I've always liked the Bachelorette better than any of the male leads.

Summer tv ratings are traditionally lower than winter. I wonder if given average viewership at the two times if they aren't more similar.

I do agree, though that ratings are what TPTB care about.

[luvlady345]

Well if that's the case none of the  female leads will be getting a wedding because  they are never as high as the male leads, like I said earlier in a post really who is surprised about the ratings? Women are other  women worst enemy. The worst male lead rating are better than the best female ... So really no surprise here.

Which is something I really don't understand.  I'd much rather look at 25 good looking guys than 25 drama queens.  I've always liked the Bachelorette better than any of the male leads.

I think that people are use to or more comfortable seeing catty women verses catty men on these shows and the women bring more drama and drama sells.

[pander3575]

Well if that's the case none of the  female leads will be getting a wedding because  they are never as high as the male leads, like I said earlier in a post really who is surprised about the ratings? Women are other  women worst enemy. The worst male lead rating are better than the best female ... So really no surprise here.

Which is something I really don't understand.  I'd much rather look at 25 good looking guys than 25 drama queens.  I've always liked the Bachelorette better than any of the male leads.

I think that people are use to or more comfortable seeing catty women verses catty men on these shows and the women bring more drama and drama sells.

I always knew I was different.   

[luvlady345]

Me too Pander, I would much rather watch men trying to woo a woman than catty women.

[Lucas15]

I think that people are use to or more comfortable seeing catty women verses catty men on these shows and the women bring more drama and drama sells.

     

You might find this article interesting and maybe also amusing:

One ABC reality series is dipping in the ratings while the other has stayed pat, and the reasons may surprise you.

A bunch of dudes sat quietly in their suite’s living room sipping wine, as dudes do, when the perpetually scarved front-runner, salesman Nick V., finally returned from his impromptu one-on-one date with Andi. Brian broke the bronotony. “You know what, I’m not going to beat around the bush…” Then the five men laid in to him. Nick is, according to the brollective, “not here for the right reasons.” He’s a snake; a gamer who “cares more about strategy than Andi.” To which Nick replied: “We’re good friends, but we’re different people in how we handle our feelings. So…”

Thus ended the most explosive scene of this season’s intolerably tedious Bachelorette. As for why The Bachelorette is so dull, especially compared to its Bachelor counterpart, it’s complicated. But as the Bachelor’s creator, Mike Fleiss, has said, the real star of the show isn't the one handing out roses—they’re the lonely hearts competing for them. Sadly, the parade of anemic fellas just can’t compete with the ladies.

For perspective, let’s remember what happened in The Bachelor in the episode before hometowns.

By this time in Juan Pablo’s season, opera singer Sharleen was rejecting JP, and the leftover women were raging against both sl**-shamed Clare and pediatric nurse/good-girl Nikki, who in turn were both screaming at each other one moment and involved in a marathon silent treatment the next. In the previous iteration of The Bachelor, born-again virgin Sean Lowe’s season, the women were in St. Croix, which set the stage for the most epic fight in the show’s history (the one where Tierra valiantly declared, “I can’t control my eyebrow!”)

Back in 2002, while toasting the first season of their ratings horse The Bachelor, ABC producers kicked around the idea of turning the format on its head. Instead of 25 lovely ladies cavorting for the attention of a single beau, ABC would find two dozen men ready to lay their hearts (and self-respect) on the line to woo the show’s runner-up. 

At the time, critics were incredulous that the show would work. Sexism was mostly to blame. A columnist for Canada’s National Post summed up the general skepticism this way: “When our bachelorette can libidinously test drive more than two dozen guys over the course of six weeks, quiz and cajole the devoted pack down to a fierce pair of spitting competitors who’d risk their last smidgen of dignity for the honor of her hand in marriage, then the double standard will officially be dead, and the casting call can begin.”

Fast-forward a decade and 10 seasons of The Bachelorette later. The country has indeed accepted that a woman can make out with, and even bed, more than one suitor at a time on national television. So it should mark a small feminist victory that The Bachelorette exists at all. Still, that doesn’t make me want to watch it. And I’m not alone.

By the time The Bachelorette first debuted in 2003, 16.7 million tuned in to witness the experiment, according to Nielsen’s ratings, crushing the more conservative boy-and-his-harem narrative on the first season of The Bachelor, which only managed to attract 10.7 million viewers. While it captured the prurient curiosity of a nation, The Bachelorette couldn’t hold on to us. Andi’s season has been the worst in terms of ratings and has so far attracted less than half the viewers Trista Sutter did in that first season, again according to Nielsen. While The Bachelor’s viewership has remained roughly the same over 18 seasons, more than half of The Bachelorette’s fans have switched the dial since the show first started.

The issues are many. There’s the first, most obvious reason: though women might say they want a sensitive man, the type that might, oh, declare their eternal love and propose after a few dates, when that type of man presents himself live and in color, it’s not so appealing (see Kasey’s sad promise—with matching tattoo!—to “guard and protect” bachelorette Ali Fedotowsky’s heart.)

But the bigger issue at play, one that even Nick V.’s unhinged confessional sobbing can’t overcome, is that men competing for love is boring. It’s a scientific fact.

Psychologist Joyce Benenson has spent 25 years studying the different ways men and women compete. Far from the conventional wisdom that men are more competitive, Benenson argues in her new book, Warriors and Worriers, that women are just as aggressive as men—just in cleverer, more fascinating ways. In other words: It makes for better TV.

With males (human and chimpanzee), Benenson says you see “direct verbal and physical aggression—a big fight and that’s that. Shouting and screaming and it’s very loud and unpleasant, but there’s also a sense of predictability.” But, and this is where the show comes in, “because males do really cooperate very well against other groups, the intra-Community fighting is left hanging, and usually reconciled. Once they figure out the hierarchy, they generally abide by it. [Males] know where they stand and they respect that.”

“Now females do not form a hierarchy easily and there is no basic reason to cooperate,” added Benenson. “Generally they do not cooperate with unrelated individuals. They naturally take care of children, parents, relatives, but when it comes to a best friend, it’s really easy to get rid of her, as sad as that is,” she says.

Take this lack of cooperative instinct and add a competitive situation, and Benenson says you get a real conundrum. A woman, she says, avoids manlier physical altercations in an evolutionary move to protect her reproductive organs, and enable her to care for future children. “So what you get is this very subtle, very severe competition.”

“Women are basically nice,” Benenson claims. “They’re giving the impression that they want to cooperate, that they don’t want to compete. But that’s dumb, because if you want the guy or the job, then you have to compete, because otherwise you will lose. So you disguise it. And then it becomes very complicated and interesting. You smile as you quietly take somebody else’s whatever it is.”

“There are so many levels going on with the girls,” she says.

Where the congeniality all falls apart is with the introduction of a too-confident favorite—a Vienna Girardi, or Courtney Robertson, or Nikki Ferrell (there’s one every season). When this character shows up, all the women turn on her.

“The ultimate tool they use is social exclusion,” says Benenson. “That is what girls use in place of direct aggression. If someone is prettier or smarter or a better violin player, and not at the same time putting herself down or saying she’s an equal, then she’s out. Compared to men, they are terribly worried about social exclusion, and for good reason. That is what women do, from 4 years old to nursing home residents, if they find they can’t be dead even. And they find it very pleasurable.”

Not only do women exhibit more complex behaviors, but also the stakes for them in a marriage competition are much higher than they are for men, for whom age is less of a factor in reproducing. “Men have more time to figure it out,” Benenson says. “Just mathematically, the amount of time you want to invest in that first choice, it’s much more important for a woman.”

This urgency and desperation fuels the fire for The Bachelor’s contestants. A bunch of men competing for one woman—no matter how fabulous she is—just doesn’t work.

People Prefer ‘The Bachelor’

[mindless]

Which is something I really don't understand.  I'd much rather look at 25 good looking guys than 25 drama queens.  I've always liked the Bachelorette better than any of the male leads.

Same here. I love watching 25 guys and their developing bromances. They're usually much more chill than the women on the Bachelor, except for some members of the Right Reasons police force. I also think the female leads are much better at picking with their brain+heart as opposed to... other body parts. I guess Andi was too manly for me.

Don't you think the ratings have a lot to do with the Bachelorette being a summertime show though? People have a lot more going on during summer than winter. And it's so soon after the Bachelor that people feel like they've gotten their fill of forced TV romance and can't get invested again so soon after.

[GuardianAngel]

If we are talking about SM popularity, I see way more pics of JPG and Nikki and Sean and Catherine, way more, on SM than I do of Josh and Andi.

That may mean nothing, but I wouldn't say they are the most popular couple to come out of this franchise on SM.

In the few vid's that I've watched, I noticed Josh is the one that takes over the conversation. It's almost as if he wants control, to avoid any slip ups by Andi. I watched the one earlier, they were being interviewed by a young girl. I do not like the digs Andi gives him. She was making fun of him for loosing the group date basketball game.

I personally do not like it when one partner finds the need to constantly point out the negative or ridicule the other, let alone in the media. I realize it's joking around, but it's not funny to me at all. Why not say something like, he really tried to win that game, he was upset he lost, he's a good basketball player? He on the other hand, said she wasn't that bad, when Andi said she can't play basketball at all.

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