Re: Nick Viall Bachelorette 10 - Fan Forum - Updates - Discussion - Thread #9

[Gingsterose]

Andi’s lack of empathy has really come to bite her in the butt big time.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at any point, the media situation would have been much more controlled.

If Andi had been gracious and honest to Nick when she let him go in the DR, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick post show and deigned to speak with him, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at ATFR, he might not have questioned her about the FS.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick in the post ATFR media, Nick might not be getting all the positive media support he’s been receiving.

Despite her protestations, I do believe Andi fell in love with Nick.  As Nick suggested, I think she was afraid of her feelings for Nick and so pulled away.  But fear is not something that Andi could acknowledge or own… so she (subconsciously) rewrote her own story; saying she never loved him and turned cold, cold, cold - Andi’s recipe for self-preservation.

I also think Andi felt she needed to totally deny her feelings for Nick so that Josh and his family would not question her journey or final decision… (and accounts for her over the top declaration of love to Josh at the FRC.)  

And Andi’s total abandonment of feelings for Nick carried over into the post show too… and here Andi seems to be grasping at her version of the story very very hard to try and convince Nick, the world, Josh, her inlaws and herself that it is real.  But to me, the harder she grasps, the more desperate she looks (and less I believe her….) Sad, sad, sad.

   

[happygolucky]

Sue ...
from bottom up:
He will never say it. We may think that way, he probably at the end came to similar conclusion.
There is a level of deceit ... or this show would call it ... lead on.
And he knows it ... he called it ... he is using more delicate words in the interviews now ... but he is saying it.
The last part of the interview on E! - the video above - the part that is not transcripted is "when people have an understanding when love's involved and falling in-love ... I think there's a level of respect that both people should give to it" ... of course he says later ... "I'm not saying she didn't...."  ... but well, I would call it: leave it to the interpretation.

The letter ... hmmm... the letter ... He wrote it. - Yes. But I don't buy the story of wanting her back. Even he doesn't say it. It is written in a way that it can allude. It is mostly him questioning her (challenging must say, to explain herself about her actions and words to him).
In the video in MKE ... he and his mom - on tape - clearly say that he needs closure (not about what), but also Nick is very strong-minded, he doesn't talk about wanting her back in any way, just that he wants to understand.
In the voice-over he talks about the hope and possibility of her changing her mind. That part, together with the MTA visit, together with the letter ... was all scripted and produced for the purpose of the storyboard "heartbroken Nick" (not his idea, but he ran with it).
Did he try to contact her ... let's assume and believe every word CH says ... yes ... once - and I say, only once - when he called ... he was told that they cannot contact her (probably, because she was vacationing or whatever) ... he knew by then she was engaged (or at least he figured it out himself) ... so it wasn't his intention to get her back, he wanted to discuss the issue about the whole experience and how she made him feel ... to get clarity but most importantly his peace.

About the closure ... (and MTA visit that I don't believe was much of his idea, beside they flew him in and set up the whole thing, even the talk between CH and Nick in CH's room was scripted)
imagining to be in Nick's shoes ...
He gets told in DR, by the girl, that she doesn't feel it, that it doesn't feel right, that he is analyzing to much, that he drags her down and she cannot relax with him, ...,
and he asks her "do you really think that?" ... and she confirms and puts more salt on the wound.
He goes home, on the plane he says he just left it at that, didn't want to argue... because he felt it a night before, he heard it then that morning from her mouth, she had a complete wrong picture of him... so he knows that they aren't IT ...
but he questions ... why did I feel like we were? ... was I imagining all that connection between us? ... where did I misread the signs?
- it's normal, we start to doubt ourselves ... and he probably was going crazy overthinking about every step of the way ... her action, her words and at the end coming to his room being a complete different person -
that's a inner turmoil he had all this time post filming, prior to ATFR, that's what his mom hoped he can get a closure with. His questions about why misleading him, why making him believe in all the connection when she didn't really get him (otherwise she wouldn't say those things to him on the day of the breakup)? And just like Eric, he was wondering when was she acting with him and when was she real? ... because if he felt a deep connection, which he never felt before, it is heartbreaking to know, that it wasn't real at all, because it was only one-sided, or in different words, it was an idea, since the person he "saw and understood" wasn't really the person 100% in.
And I believe that's the closure he needed to get. With her behavior, he got his answers.
I hope I explained better.

[Cecilia]

I'm back bc I watched one more part of the interview with Billy Bush last night. And Nick said that he and Andi slept together and 8 days later got engaged to someone else. If this is true then Nick was the Last FS!! It explains why he was so tan.

[nutty1]

I love this from the E! interview…..

"I said fiancée-type stuff," Nick clarified. "I probably divulged enough information, so I won't get into too more detail now that I'm not caught up in the moment, but I mean it was a level of intimacy that was far beyond just the act of sex for me, which obviously was part of it."

"It was just very passionate, intimate, personal and emotional, just with the fact that an engagement was on the line, and that was understood by both of us and I was very clear about my feelings, and she was very clear about where she wanted this to go and I was very clear about where I thought it might be going," he said frankly. "I think that's kind of what I meant about it, in the situation."

It explains so much, without really saying what happened.

[Catdwoman50]

First off, welcome and hello to new #teamNick-sters, sarahd, VAgirl(wonder if we live in the same neighborhood) and to those I forgot.  Also to all old timers coming back to commiserate/celebrate with us.  Once again #teamNick thanks for the blogs, esp. Survivor blog - validated my feelings again, esp this:

I have liked Andi as the bachelorette from the beginning. She is an intelligent, career-driven, confident woman. But her true colours came out on After the Final Rose, the live reunion show after Monday’s finale. We saw shades of her narcissism earlier in the season with the whole Eric Hill departure episode, where he accused Andi of “acting” for the cameras and she unnecessarily flipped out on him. At the time, I chalked that one up to her being emotionally and physically exhausted. But then a familiar sort of meltdown happened on After the Final Rose.

Andi's natural reaction to conflict comes out in the most difficult times, perhaps warranted in her profession, but very unattractive when applied out of a courtroom and esp on National TV.  I will say this tho because I would not want to speculate any longer on anything that is highly produced. Obviously, no one before, during, and after filming can divulge the outcome so Andi cannot, would not have been able admit at breakup day of FR that it's about someone else.  I will give her credit for that.

However, it was her actions during the live TV show that I can't forget still cannot forgive because she took the qualities I admire about her or a woman with all the power, like her in that case, to an extreme.  I won't belabor any longer that Andi lied, whether she really had feelings for Nick validating their relationship or she took him on a spin, to make him look like a fool.  I think she attempted at the latter but it backfired - it was not pretty.  Glad it's over, I have a little girl (tween) and a boy (teen), I will take a teachable moment from this; one more example of strength and beauty and that real beauty is never skin-deep.

[nutty1]

Here are my foggy thoughts this morning, before I have even finished my first cup of coffee……

I don't think Nick will be the next Bachelor, because, in his own words, the infamous question, which naturally spills over to include Nick in general, was very "polarizing". Other years, I think Fleiss would have peed is pants for someone like Nick, but coming off of JP's season, I'd say he will play it safe. And as much as I'd love to see him on my TV each week, I am afraid he'd be bashed by a lot of people. He'd be loved by many, but again….polarizing.

I think JJ will provide us with plenty of weekend pictures….YAY!

I am still curious as to who set up all those interviews for Nick….and why?

[nutty1]

There are a few things I find perplexing post-show.

1. Andi & Nick both admitted to having sex on at least the FS date.  He framed it in the context of "intimacy" and it was that aspect that moved it out of the "wham bam thank you mam" realm.
Regardless, both publicly admit to intercourse while they are sitting on the same couch at ATFR yet there isn't much media attention on the fact that she did this not long before accepting a proposal.  I don't care what "the show" allows but I think it's fairly safe to say that the Vialls are pretty happy there son survived a 2 1/2 month relationship, despite the wretched heartbreak, because if he had proposed instead EVERYONE would know his fiancé slept with another guy less than a week before. This way, Nick is single and no doubt has slept with other women so she is just one more in his history. He likely isn't embarrassed about having slept with any of them because he wasn't planning to get engaged to someone else a week later.  Real life!  

2. OMG is J really ok with this as a part of his love story that will always be available online for his children's viewing pleasure? Not exactly a hand-drawn fairytale.  I never really took a liking to J. but she did it and has said she did on ATFR and in an interview with him standing right beside her.  Have some respect for your fiancé and his family! Ok, she said it once, but to repeat it again?  He wasn't that appealing to me but still, he's just a normal guy with lots of good traits and his fiancé should stop talking about this and Nick in general. She's starting to implode.  Just because Nick's letter mentioned something along the lines of "if you ever think of me" doesn't mean she has to keep thinking and responding to him.  She's the one that needs to put her "big girl panties on" and act like someone who is planning a wedding not a public execution of her former lover. Again, he's single and she's just someone who he used to date and is trying to move on from.  A free agent.  There's no woman currently cuddling with Nick on the couch who has to live with this public tiff.

3. It doesn't matter how many women like what Nick has to offer.  The pool is large enough for him to explore as he sees fit.  He obviously now knows he doesn't want a woman who turns on a dime when they wake up in the morning. It's all good.
The media should stop scrutinizing him. I don't think he cares at all how many people think his feelings were genuine.  It's basically irrelevant to his daily life at this point as he is done with the show. He knows what's true and strangers don't matter. If he wants to go on a date with someone tomorrow, he can. 6 months from now, his call.  He's single.  Obviously being in love with A., in Marcus's case, wasn't that hard to get over for some reason.  Same with Chris who thinks being the next Bach sounds like a good deal.  Who knows what Nick will do.
Too much focus and digging around for dirty laundry in Nick's case.  Why is it a sin to fall in love and want to have a heart to heart talk about it?  It's about respect and incumbent on the one who initiated the break up to be adult about it. She chose to not allow him privacy so "touché".  She wanted a public break up talk and she got it.  Real break ups can be messy.
My my, does she fear he might become the next Bach?  .  I don't want him to be but maybe his kisses really are magical.     Shouldn't be any concern of hers.  She had her chance.  Move over and Staap blasting the guy you broke up with in an attempt to discredit him.  She's just helping Nick get over her even faster! This isn't middle school. She needs to focus on her current man and meaning behind the ring on her finger.

4.  Nick, his family, and some friends have all met Andi.  If she deceived him then she deceived them as well ... including 9 year old Bella.  If Andi deceived herself, that is even rockier road that would no longer concern them because she's ENGAGED to a different man.  To them, just a girl Nick dated for 2 1/2 months. It could have been worse.  I do still think she was a much softer version of herself with him so I actually don't buy that she was faking but she made a different choice nonetheless.

5. Why are rag mags continuing to trying to discredit Nick?  Why was a Bach producer spotted at his NYC interview after which Ali, a Bach nation veteran, begins recanting positive Nick comments?  What is the purpose of stretching this story out?  Is there a final act yet to come or is it all just filler for the network until the next great storyline (laboratory venture) is storyboarded for viewer amusement?  Silly, silly, silly. Let intelligent, successful, not afraid of his emotions, eloquent, tenacious, sometimes sweet, sensual Nick #livelikeEric and find his future wife on his own terms and in his own time.     I still   Nick because he's a rebel ... deliciously so.

   

[happygolucky]

First off, welcome and hello to new #teamNick-sters, sarahd, VAgirl(wonder if we live in the same neighborhood) and to those I forgot.  Also to all old timers coming back to commiserate/celebrate with us.  Once again #teamNick thanks for the blogs, esp. Survivor blog - validated my feelings again, esp this:

I have liked Andi as the bachelorette from the beginning. She is an intelligent, career-driven, confident woman. But her true colours came out on After the Final Rose, the live reunion show after Monday’s finale. We saw shades of her narcissism earlier in the season with the whole Eric Hill departure episode, where he accused Andi of “acting” for the cameras and she unnecessarily flipped out on him. At the time, I chalked that one up to her being emotionally and physically exhausted. But then a familiar sort of meltdown happened on After the Final Rose.

Andi's natural reaction to conflict comes out in the most difficult times, perhaps warranted in her profession, but very unattractive when applied out of a courtroom and esp on National TV.  I will say this tho because I would not want to speculate any longer on anything that is highly produced. Obviously, no one before, during, and after filming can divulge the outcome so Andi cannot, would not have been able admit at breakup day of FR that it's about someone else.  I will give her credit for that.

However, it was her actions during the live TV show that I can't forget still cannot forgive because she took the qualities I admire about her or a woman with all the power, like her in that case, to an extreme.  I won't belabor any longer that Andi lied, whether she really had feelings for Nick validating their relationship or she took him on a spin, to make him look like a fool.  I think she attempted at the latter but it backfired - it was not pretty.  Glad it's over, I have a little girl (tween) and a boy (teen), I will take a teachable moment from this; one more example of strength and beauty and that real beauty is never skin-deep.

I agree.

Also my take on all of this .. and I've tried to explain in my previous posts is ...

I don't blame Andi for "misleading" Nick, it is part of the game, he is very conscious of it so I don't think he blames her either.
The whole issue ... the way I read it between the lines of Nick's question and the need for closure ...
is that she never acknowledged it to him, she never said I'm sorry or even showed a bit of empathy in the moment ...
instead she praised herself for being so respectful and kind to him to break-up with him before the proposal,
she congratulate herself for making him believe, fall in love and feel that deep connection (that now, who knows whether it was real or just scripted?).
Maybe Nick didn't want to hurt her really, or maybe it was subconscious talking, but he sure wanted to make her realize how much she had hurt him,
and the "outing" was just the easiest way to put her in front of the question to admit.
In the interviews he is saying that he is sorry for the way he expressed himself ... because taking the easy road is not always smart and nice,
but he is not sorry for asking her ... because the question was: Were you faking or were you real?

[notarose]

Just read Sharleen's blog ... I actually agree with her in all but would like to say mine about one part and then I return to my silence on the matter:

"He didn't make any decisions or assumptions without encouragement or reason. So for him of all people to really let his walls down and expose his heart on national television only to have the rug pulled out from under him is all kinds of sick in my eyes.

THAT SAID, I do not blame Andi for this. I honestly believe Andi cared for Nick a lot. I believe in an alternate universe where there was no time limit and no Josh and just a different set of circumstances, she and Nick could have a fantastic, functional, and maybe even successful relationship." The red part - maybe, I wouldn't even go there with a thought. I truly believe these two were no match, didn't really understand each other as much as they thought or wanted us to believe and at the end it was clear to both of them - so imagining their relationship - I just can't.

Andi cared ... yes, past tense. She hates Nick now. And not just because of the video and subsequently spoiling HER season, but also because she believes in everything she heard about him. She doesn't believe in his genuineness, she doesn't believe he's being honest or modest or sincere. She sees herself as a victim of his game, that she had all the right to dump him as she did, which she did good and she congratulates herself - (and so do I, Andi, so do I )- that's why she had that kind of demeanor with him at the ATFR and that's why all the unnecessary words post-show.

Like I said before, I won't go into the manipulation talk ... there is plenty to say ... I do believe that Nick was heartbroken, but I also believe that the plane video was his most honest answer to her final choice. Everything else that happened later and discussed at ATFR was post-spoiler-show production.

To the red - oh dear, I have to disagree with you and side with Sharleen on this one.  Can we still be  ?   I think they are both flawed but loved watching their scenes which couldn't have had the passion and cleverness if one of them wasn't there.  Didn't happen though. She chose Josh.

Andi - she "hates" him now because she could be going through the stages of grief: Stage 2 - anger.  We could be witnessing an EPIC lovers quarrel.  :shocked!:  up to and including the ATFR was the first stage - denial.  You made excellent points in your second last paragraph.  Sounds like she thought he was "too good to be true" and questioning everything.  People don't bother if they themselves don't have an emotional investment.

I think production helped him by allowing him to do the interviews.  What he chose to say was all him.  He admitted in one interview that he realized he was polarizing and that he was aware of all the negative SM/media.  He smiled.  He continues to be his own leader.  He wasn't being manipulated or being manipulative rather he was explaining "why" because that's who is he. He's a talker.

[SueSt]

I love this from the E! interview…..

"I said fiancée-type stuff," Nick clarified. "I probably divulged enough information, so I won't get into too more detail now that I'm not caught up in the moment, but I mean it was a level of intimacy that was far beyond just the act of sex for me, which obviously was part of it."

"It was just very passionate, intimate, personal and emotional, just with the fact that an engagement was on the line, and that was understood by both of us and I was very clear about my feelings, and she was very clear about where she wanted this to go and I was very clear about where I thought it might be going," he said frankly. "I think that's kind of what I meant about it, in the situation."

It explains so much, without really saying what happened.

yes, Nutty. Great description!!

[notarose]

Andi’s lack of empathy has really come to bite her in the butt big time.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at any point, the media situation would have been much more controlled.

If Andi had been gracious and honest to Nick when she let him go in the DR, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick post show and deigned to speak with him, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at ATFR, he might not have questioned her about the FS.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick in the post ATFR media, Nick might not be getting all the positive media support he’s been receiving.

Despite her protestations, I do believe Andi fell in love with Nick.  As Nick suggested, I think she was afraid of her feelings for Nick and so pulled away.  But fear is not something that Andi could acknowledge or own… so she (subconsciously) rewrote her own story; saying she never loved him and turned cold, cold, cold - Andi’s recipe for self-preservation.

I also think Andi felt she needed to totally deny her feelings for Nick so that Josh and his family would not question her journey or final decision… (and accounts for her over the top declaration of love to Josh at the FRC.)  

And Andi’s total abandonment of feelings for Nick carried over into the post show too… and here Andi seems to be grasping at her version of the story very very hard to try and convince Nick, the world, Josh, her inlaws and herself that it is real.  But to me, the harder she grasps, the more desperate she looks (and less I believe her….) Sad, sad, sad.

   

   
She's spinning her own web and starting to be caught in it.

[SueSt]

Just read Sharleen's blog ... I actually agree with her in all but would like to say mine about one part and then I return to my silence on the matter:

"He didn't make any decisions or assumptions without encouragement or reason. So for him of all people to really let his walls down and expose his heart on national television only to have the rug pulled out from under him is all kinds of sick in my eyes.

THAT SAID, I do not blame Andi for this. I honestly believe Andi cared for Nick a lot. I believe in an alternate universe where there was no time limit and no Josh and just a different set of circumstances, she and Nick could have a fantastic, functional, and maybe even successful relationship." The red part - maybe, I wouldn't even go there with a thought. I truly believe these two were no match, didn't really understand each other as much as they thought or wanted us to believe and at the end it was clear to both of them - so imagining their relationship - I just can't.

Andi cared ... yes, past tense. She hates Nick now. And not just because of the video and subsequently spoiling HER season, but also because she believes in everything she heard about him. She doesn't believe in his genuineness, she doesn't believe he's being honest or modest or sincere. She sees herself as a victim of his game, that she had all the right to dump him as she did, which she did good and she congratulates herself - (and so do I, Andi, so do I )- that's why she had that kind of demeanor with him at the ATFR and that's why all the unnecessary words post-show.

Like I said before, I won't go into the manipulation talk ... there is plenty to say ... I do believe that Nick was heartbroken, but I also believe that the plane video was his most honest answer to her final choice. Everything else that happened later and discussed at ATFR was post-spoiler-show production.

To the red - oh dear, I have to disagree with you and side with Sharleen on this one.  Can we still be  ?   I think they are both flawed but loved watching their scenes which couldn't have had the passion and cleverness if one of them wasn't there.  Didn't happen though. She chose Josh.

Andi - she "hates" him now because she could be going through the stages of grief: Stage 2 - anger.  We could be witnessing an EPIC lovers quarrel.  :shocked!:  up to and including the ATFR was the first stage - denial.  You made excellent points in your second last paragraph.  Sounds like she thought he was "too good to be true" and questioning everything.  People don't bother if they themselves don't have an emotional investment.

I think production helped him by allowing him to do the interviews.  What he chose to say was all him.  He admitted in one interview that he realized he was polarizing and that he was aware of all the negative SM/media.  He smiled.  He continues to be his own leader.  He wasn't being manipulated or being manipulative rather he was explaining "why" because that's who is he. He's a talker.

  oh NR - so true to the bolded!!  
Interesting the discussion of stages of grief... so are you suggesting that Andi didn't really begin to mourn the loss of her relationship with Nick until ATFR?
also - Nick's not just a talker, but a thinker!!   

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