Re: Nick Viall Bachelorette 10 - Fan Forum - Updates - Discussion - Thread #9

[happygolucky]

I'm biting my tongue ... cause last thing I want to discuss is manipulation. If I start with one, I don't know when and where I'll finish with. So I would much rather see a Happy couple do their thing and completely forget of the other guy, he is not worth your thoughts ... right? ... then let's just stay at that.

[happygolucky]

As for us, my ladies, thanks to that amazing blog that you posted:

[SueSt]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

And she's the one who did the scorning in the first place! Hell hath no fury like a woman leading on and scorning a man and then getting scorned by the man being scorned and how dare anyone feel for or take the lied to scorned man's side!!!!!!!!!!! The audacity of it all!

I so agree w/you.  I have never seen a lead (bachelor or bachelorette) have such harsh/bad feelings for their F2.  Usually the lead is very emotional and apologetic when letting their F2 go.  Andi was neither of those things - not on the day of the FRC nor at ATFR.  I have heard some people say that maybe Andi acted the way she did because of Nick trying to contact her multiple times, but on the E! interview w/Ali tonight, someone said that Andi told Ali that Nick never tried to meet w/her.  So why such the poor treatment of Nick then?

THIS! What did Nick do to deserve Andi's scorn? And as you mention she was already ice cold to him on the FRC day.
Despite her protestations, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Andi did actually fall in love with Nick... (her responses to him on their FD, the PIs in Dinant about her seeing him proposing at the end)
But whether she was in love with Nick or not (or willing to admit it or not), her demeanor on the FRC day and particularly ATFR defies explanation!

[SueSt]

Starting at the 1.50 mark she tells Nick to be confident then a VO of him starts over her talking but I think she is saying be confident, be confident, be confident by the 2.0 mark. Can someone take a look and see if that's right??

I responded to you on the contestant thread as well, it appears that's what she said but then I don't know what it was in response to, couldn't hear Nick's in the background due to the VO.

While Andi does say 'be confident', my impression is that her words did not match her heart at this time. Something was off about this date.... Andi was definitely pulling away, particularly in contrast to her LCD with Josh.

[SueSt]

Cecilia wrote:
http://survivorbitch.com/tag/the-bachelorette-2/
Great read and ripe for a tantalizing SC.




Catdwoman50 wrote:
https://twitter.com/jason_mesnick/status/494895450667761666
Wonderful as well!

There are a few things I find perplexing post-show.

1. Andi & Nick both admitted to having sex on at least the FS date.  He framed it in the context of "intimacy" and it was that aspect that moved it out of the "wham bam thank you mam" realm.
Regardless, both publicly admit to intercourse while they are sitting on the same couch at ATFR yet there isn't much media attention on the fact that she did this not long before accepting a proposal.  I don't care what "the show" allows but I think it's fairly safe to say that the Vialls are pretty happy there son survived a 2 1/2 month relationship, despite the wretched heartbreak, because if he had proposed instead EVERYONE would know his fiancé slept with another guy less than a week before. This way, Nick is single and no doubt has slept with other women so she is just one more in his history. He likely isn't embarrassed about having slept with any of them because he wasn't planning to get engaged to someone else a week later.  Real life!  

2. OMG is J really ok with this as a part of his love story that will always be available online for his children's viewing pleasure? Not exactly a hand-drawn fairytale.  I never really took a liking to J. but she did it and has said she did on ATFR and in an interview with him standing right beside her.  Have some respect for your fiancé and his family! Ok, she said it once, but to repeat it again?  He wasn't that appealing to me but still, he's just a normal guy with lots of good traits and his fiancé should stop talking about this and Nick in general. She's starting to implode.  Just because Nick's letter mentioned something along the lines of "if you ever think of me" doesn't mean she has to keep thinking and responding to him.  She's the one that needs to put her "big girl panties on" and act like someone who is planning a wedding not a public execution of her former lover. Again, he's single and she's just someone who he used to date and is trying to move on from.  A free agent.  There's no woman currently cuddling with Nick on the couch who has to live with this public tiff.

3. It doesn't matter how many women like what Nick has to offer.  The pool is large enough for him to explore as he sees fit.  He obviously now knows he doesn't want a woman who turns on a dime when they wake up in the morning. It's all good.
The media should stop scrutinizing him. I don't think he cares at all how many people think his feelings were genuine.  It's basically irrelevant to his daily life at this point as he is done with the show. He knows what's true and strangers don't matter. If he wants to go on a date with someone tomorrow, he can. 6 months from now, his call.  He's single.  Obviously being in love with A., in Marcus's case, wasn't that hard to get over for some reason.  Same with Chris who thinks being the next Bach sounds like a good deal.  Who knows what Nick will do.
Too much focus and digging around for dirty laundry in Nick's case.  Why is it a sin to fall in love and want to have a heart to heart talk about it?  It's about respect and incumbent on the one who initiated the break up to be adult about it. She chose to not allow him privacy so "touché".  She wanted a public break up talk and she got it.  Real break ups can be messy.
My my, does she fear he might become the next Bach?  .  I don't want him to be but maybe his kisses really are magical.     Shouldn't be any concern of hers.  She had her chance.  Move over and Staap blasting the guy you broke up with in an attempt to discredit him.  She's just helping Nick get over her even faster! This isn't middle school. She needs to focus on her current man and meaning behind the ring on her finger.

4.  Nick, his family, and some friends have all met Andi.  If she deceived him then she deceived them as well ... including 9 year old Bella.  If Andi deceived herself, that is even rockier road that would no longer concern them because she's ENGAGED to a different man.  To them, just a girl Nick dated for 2 1/2 months. It could have been worse.  I do still think she was a much softer version of herself with him so I actually don't buy that she was faking but she made a different choice nonetheless.

5. Why are rag mags continuing to trying to discredit Nick?  Why was a Bach producer spotted at his NYC interview after which Ali, a Bach nation veteran, begins recanting positive Nick comments?  What is the purpose of stretching this story out?  Is there a final act yet to come or is it all just filler for the network until the next great storyline (laboratory venture) is storyboarded for viewer amusement?  Silly, silly, silly. Let intelligent, successful, not afraid of his emotions, eloquent, tenacious, sometimes sweet, sensual Nick #livelikeEric and find his future wife on his own terms and in his own time.     I still   Nick because he's a rebel ... deliciously so.

awesome NR. thanks for the screen cap; totally have to have it!!   

[happygolucky]

Just read Sharleen's blog ... I actually agree with her in all but would like to say mine about one part and then I return to my silence on the matter:

"He didn't make any decisions or assumptions without encouragement or reason. So for him of all people to really let his walls down and expose his heart on national television only to have the rug pulled out from under him is all kinds of sick in my eyes.

THAT SAID, I do not blame Andi for this. I honestly believe Andi cared for Nick a lot. I believe in an alternate universe where there was no time limit and no Josh and just a different set of circumstances, she and Nick could have a fantastic, functional, and maybe even successful relationship." The red part - maybe, I wouldn't even go there with a thought. I truly believe these two were no match, didn't really understand each other as much as they thought or wanted us to believe and at the end it was clear to both of them - so imagining their relationship - I just can't.

Andi cared ... yes, past tense. She hates Nick now. And not just because of the video and subsequently spoiling HER season, but also because she believes in everything she heard about him. She doesn't believe in his genuineness, she doesn't believe he's being honest or modest or sincere. She sees herself as a victim of his game, that she had all the right to dump him as she did, which she did good and she congratulates herself - (and so do I, Andi, so do I )- that's why she had that kind of demeanor with him at the ATFR and that's why all the unnecessary words post-show.

Like I said before, I won't go into the manipulation talk ... there is plenty to say ... I do believe that Nick was heartbroken, but I also believe that the plane video was his most honest answer to her final choice. Everything else that happened later and discussed at ATFR was post-spoiler-show production.

[happygolucky]

[SueSt]

Andi’s lack of empathy has really come to bite her in the butt big time.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at any point, the media situation would have been much more controlled.

If Andi had been gracious and honest to Nick when she let him go in the DR, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick post show and deigned to speak with him, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick at ATFR, he might not have questioned her about the FS.

If Andi had been gracious to Nick in the post ATFR media, Nick might not be getting all the positive media support he’s been receiving.

Despite her protestations, I do believe Andi fell in love with Nick.  As Nick suggested, I think she was afraid of her feelings for Nick and so pulled away.  But fear is not something that Andi could acknowledge or own… so she (subconsciously) rewrote her own story; saying she never loved him and turned cold, cold, cold - Andi’s recipe for self-preservation.

I also think Andi felt she needed to totally deny her feelings for Nick so that Josh and his family would not question her journey or final decision… (and accounts for her over the top declaration of love to Josh at the FRC.)  

And Andi’s total abandonment of feelings for Nick carried over into the post show too… and here Andi seems to be grasping at her version of the story very very hard to try and convince Nick, the world, Josh, her inlaws and herself that it is real.  But to me, the harder she grasps, the more desperate she looks (and less I believe her….) Sad, sad, sad.

[SueSt]

thanks for these Happy.
particularly like the shot in the bottom left - very soulful!

[SueSt]

Very good extended discussion with Nick and Ali on his feelings about the Bach experience and FS.

http://www.eonline.com/news/565276/nick-viall-explains-fantasy-suite-experience-with-andi-dorfman-our-intimacy-level-was-way-beyond-the-act-of-sex

Nick Viall Explains Fantasy Suite Experience With Andi Dorfman: Our Intimacy Level Was Way Beyond the "Act of Sex"
by Natalie Finn Thu., Jul. 31, 2014 8:10 PM PDT

Nick Viall has no regrets. Which is not to say he wouldn't have done anything differently on The Bachelorette if given the chance.

"You certainly have to be ready for the unexpected and everyone knows how skeptical I was, but I did try to have an open mind and allowed myself to fall in love," the man who did not end up with Andi Dorfman on the show's season finale this week told E! News' Ali Fedotowsky. "But you know, I think love can be found anywyhere. I didn't really go there looking for love! I was very clear with [Andi] about that."

But lo and behold, he did fall in love and he was left with a broken heart, a blindside that prompted him to pointedly confront Andi about their night in the infamous Bachelorette Fantasy Suite during the After the Final Rose special on Monday.

Asked if he really had no regrets, especially regarding him bringing up in front of millions of people that he and Andi had "made love" that night, Nick rolled his eyes.

"I love how people say that ['no regrets']," he said. "In hindsight you can always go back and change things. But again, over all, I was true to myself and I'm proud of that. I suppose I could always have said things differently or bit my tongue sometimes—without question maybe you'd go back and do things a little bit differently, but I certainly have no regrest about putting myself out there, no regrets about focusing on her and doing what I thought was best for our relationship."

And apparently, at the time, having sex seemed like the logical next move. But asked what he meant by saying he and Andi had "fiancée-type discussions" with each other, he insisted that more than physical intimacy transpired between them.

"I said fiancée-type stuff," Nick clarified. "I probably divulged enough information, so I won't get into too more detail now that I'm not caught up in the moment, but I mean it was a level of intimacy that was far beyond just the act of sex for me, which obviously was part of it."

"It was just very passionate, intimate, personal and emotional, just with the fact that an engagement was on the line, and that was understood by both of us and I was very clear about my feelings, and she was very clear about where she wanted this to go and I was very clear about where I thought it might be going," he said frankly. "I think that's kind of what I meant about it, in the situation."

Ultimately, Andi ended their relationship before the final rose ceremony, clearing the way for Josh Murray to be the only one proposing at show's end.

In the clip Nick reveals whether Andi ever told him she loved him, and hear him talk about how the Bachelorette's body language made him feel that they would end up together.

[happygolucky]

Sue - the only part I can't agree with ...

"If Andi had been gracious to Nick post show and deigned to speak with him, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier."

I actually believe that Nick's 'so important' closure, was not a closure regarding the break-up.

I honestly believe he had that talk with himself and he was OK with their break up ... the whole "heartbroken Nick" is really TPTB produced ... with that I'm not saying he wasn't heartbroken, because obviously he was, considering he thought she is the woman who has it all and gives him all, emotional, mental and physical connection ... and in the DR he finally realized (well, maybe later flying home and speaking to his parents) that 'that it' wasn't real at all. His closure about the break-up happened long before MTA, ATFR ... so no, the magic of edit and illusion that goes with it is gone for me. Don't buy it. (That doesn't mean I don't believe what Nick said - but only the parts when we see him talking)

IMHO he needed closure over one big question for him. Was he imagining it all or was there anything real?

Because for a guy that smart and intelligent (that we all saw), he couldn't let go of the fact that someone played him, lied to him, deceived him that good into believing in something he was sure to have under control, because like Shar expressed best, his decisions or assumptions come out of the encouragement or reason. So his pending question was the sole issue that Nick had with Andi. Why and how?
He needed to understand that.

She gave him the answer with her demeanor (as he said) and with that wonderful speech of gratitude (applause for Andi! ... You do take me serious, do you?) ... it is visible on his face, it clicked, suddenly all made sense ...and then he did something ... to return the favor ... and HE SAID IT ... It surprised him (his words and I can believe him) ...
But does he regret it? - No. Did Andi show any remorse or regret for her actions? - No.
So they are even.

[SueSt]

Sue - the only part I can't agree with ...

"If Andi had been gracious to Nick post show and deigned to speak with him, Nick’s ability to get over their break up would have been much easier."

I actually believe that Nick's 'so important' closure, was not a closure regarding the break-up.

I honestly believe he had that talk with himself and he was OK with their break up ... the whole "heartbroken Nick" is really TPTB produced ... with that I'm not saying he wasn't heartbroken, because obviously he was, considering he thought she is the woman who has it all and gives him all, emotional, mental and physical connection ... and in the DR he finally realized (well, maybe later flying home and speaking to his parents) that 'that it' wasn't real at all. His closure about the break-up happened long before MTA, ATFR ... so no, the magic of edit and illusion that goes with it is gone for me. Don't buy it. (That doesn't mean I don't believe what Nick said - but only the parts when we see him talking)

IMHO he needed closure over one big question for him. Was he imagining it all or was there anything real?

Because for a guy that smart and intelligent (that we all saw), he couldn't let go of the fact that someone played him, lied to him, deceived him that good into believing in something he was sure to have under control, because like Shar expressed best, his decisions or assumptions come out of the encouragement or reason. So his pending question was the sole issue that Nick had with Andi. Why and how?
He needed to understand that.

She gave him the answer with her demeanor (as he said) and with that wonderful speech of gratitude (applause for Andi! ... You do take me serious, do you?) ... it is visible on his face, it clicked, suddenly all made sense ...and then he did something ... to return the favor ... and HE SAID IT ... It surprised him (his words and I can believe him) ...
But does he regret it? - No. Did Andi show any remorse or regret for her actions? - No.
So they are even.

Not sure I'm following you Happy.
Do you think that Nick coming to speak to Andi at the MTA was about something other than getting over their break up and finding closure?
I think the letter he gave CH at the MTA is pretty clear - Nick still had feelings he was trying to get over.
Even in his post ATFR interviews I don't hear Nick saying that he thought Andi deceived him.

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