Re: * No Spoilers* The Bachelor 18 FINALE (LCD/MTP/FRC) Discussion- Thread #2

[eirekay]

sde1041 wrote:
I believe Juan Pablo behaved accordingly to the women he was with.
Clare was throwing herself at him, seemed an "easy girl" and he just took the opportunity that was offered. Just like so many other men, he used and threw away I guess. As for what exactly happened and was said, I don't know what exactly happened except for the edit and Clare's words. JP was not exactly a gentleman, but Clare was not really a lady neither. I don't really get why all the blame goes on JP only. In my opinion, the way a woman behaves with a man gets her to get a certain type of response from a guy. Usually the ones who choose to show an " easy to get" side will get a lack of respect from a guy.
On the other hand, Nikki was/is treated differently because JP sees her differently. I am sure in his mind she has higher standards and thus treats her with more consideration.
JMHO.
Great post and ITA with what you are saying.

ITA as well but would you want to be with someone who treated women, or people for that matter, according to their "vulnerabilities" as opposed to treating everyone with respect. I have the same issue with "ladder" people - people who treat others according their rung on the ladder of life. I found JP dismissive and arrogant pretty much throughout, and what others thought was empathy when JP was letting girls go, I saw as an inability to deal with other people's emotions. JMO.

[Guest]

The whole "some women deserve it" in terms of being treated as sex objects only is a very bad path to travel down IMO. JPG slut shamed Clare over and over and it's a testament to what a chauvinist he is and how he views women. It's very reminiscent of Brad treating Chantal and Ashley (until she showed her sharp little teeth and told him off) as these naughty girls to hook up with and the pedestal was reserved for Emily. It's seriously messed up. I know it is probably part of JPG's culture and maybe Nikki is okay with it, but his treatment of Clare says much more about him than her.

True. I guess one can easily forget who was taking her to the first date which required a bikini, asking her to sneak around in the pool before the ocean gate, making the Vietnam GD as 1-1 date ( and stole some besitos), breaking his own rule for not kissing anyone in SK by those choc-flavored besitos, playing that cheesy song over and over ( maybe he views Clare as his best lover?:))..the list goes on.... And ultimately the infamous banter: "just tell me you love me"... " umm IDK you... But I love effing you".. . What a warm-hearted compliment. Hands down, What a well-rounded gentleman!! .
(For those who curio why there was no audio or cameraman around , can check out Jason-Molly podcast part 1 for details ).

[quietpal]

The whole "some women deserve it" in terms of being treated as sex objects only is a very bad path to travel down IMO. JPG slut shamed Clare over and over and it's a testament to what a chauvinist he is and how he views women. It's very reminiscent of Brad treating Chantal and Ashley (until she showed her sharp little teeth and told him off) as these naughty girls to hook up with and the pedestal was reserved for Emily. It's seriously messed up. I know it is probably part of JPG's culture and maybe Nikki is okay with it, but his treatment of Clare says much more about him than her.

I definitely think he treated her badly. However, I think they both acted badly. He was taking what she was giving him. She wanted him to respect her and was looking for a real relationship, but what the edit chose to show, was something different, in my eyes. On their FD, she did the pouting lips thing again. She also asked him "you like it" when referring to her dress and did so in a come hither manner and was very suggestive. Yet, you want him to respect you? Please don't think I'm condoning how he treated her. I'm simply stating an opinion. I just think some of this was her doing also. I also don't think he views all women like that because I saw him treat Nikki differently, with respect and care. The difference between the two women it seemed was that JP pursued Nikki whereas Clare pursued him. That's just how I saw it.

[2observe]

The whole "some women deserve it" in terms of being treated as sex objects only is a very bad path to travel down IMO. JPG slut shamed Clare over and over and it's a testament to what a chauvinist he is and how he views women. It's very reminiscent of Brad treating Chantal and Ashley (until she showed her sharp little teeth and told him off) as these naughty girls to hook up with and the pedestal was reserved for Emily. It's seriously messed up. I know it is probably part of JPG's culture and maybe Nikki is okay with it, but his treatment of Clare says much more about him than her.

IMO, Clare is equally responsible for how she was treated.  She put herself in a position to look "easy," and that's not Juan's fault.  It takes two to tangle and they were both equally responsible for the outcome.

[2observe]

The whole "some women deserve it" in terms of being treated as sex objects only is a very bad path to travel down IMO. JPG slut shamed Clare over and over and it's a testament to what a chauvinist he is and how he views women. It's very reminiscent of Brad treating Chantal and Ashley (until she showed her sharp little teeth and told him off) as these naughty girls to hook up with and the pedestal was reserved for Emily. It's seriously messed up. I know it is probably part of JPG's culture and maybe Nikki is okay with it, but his treatment of Clare says much more about him than her.

I definitely think he treated her badly. However, I think they both acted badly. He was taking what she was giving him. She wanted him to respect her and was looking for a real relationship, but what the edit chose to show, was something different, in my eyes. On their FD, she did the pouting lips thing again. She also asked him "you like it" when referring to her dress and did so in a come hither manner and was very suggestive. Yet, you want him to respect you? Please don't think I'm condoning how he treated her. I'm simply stating an opinion. I just think some of this was her doing also. I also don't think he views all women like that because I saw him treat Nikki differently, with respect and care. The difference between the two women it seemed was that JP pursued Nikki whereas Clare pursued him. That's just how I saw it.

ITA, especially the bolded.

[quietpal]

The whole "some women deserve it" in terms of being treated as sex objects only is a very bad path to travel down IMO. JPG slut shamed Clare over and over and it's a testament to what a chauvinist he is and how he views women. It's very reminiscent of Brad treating Chantal and Ashley (until she showed her sharp little teeth and told him off) as these naughty girls to hook up with and the pedestal was reserved for Emily. It's seriously messed up. I know it is probably part of JPG's culture and maybe Nikki is okay with it, but his treatment of Clare says much more about him than her.

IMO, Clare is equally responsible for how she was treated.  She put herself in a position to look "easy," and that's not Juan's fault.  It takes two to tangle and they were both equally responsible for the outcome.

OMG, exactly! There's two people involved here.

[Aunties_Love]

I dont know about y'all but this was my best season of the Bachelor EVER!
Its realistic, flawed, honest and ended with two people who actually get each other.
Not saying everything JP did was right but isnt that waht being human is about? Its real, we all live in a world where we sometimes do wrong, say wrong and act wrong. We have been sold this fairytale ending for years and years and only got 3 lucky ones from a possible.....20/ 25 endings. Not everyone is expressive or quock to fall in love. Some take their time. It was Juan Pablos moment and he navigated it as best as he could. Remained open( unlike pasts who claimed to) and went with th girl best suited to him.
Chris Harrison isnt a god that cant be spoken back at, I am especially happy JP didnt pander to the production's crap.
Sean and catherine, bless them, have their asses owned for now. They surely cant afford to bite the hands that feeds them.

I wish JP and Nikki nothing but the best and as nikki said, time will tell. Cant see them doing any worse than the many in love couples that have graced our screens from the bachelor land.

I disagree. I have a cousin with aspergers that can listen and communicate better than pabs. CH told him all of us went on this journey with him and he responded with, "It doesn't matter." That is basically how he has responded to anyone's disappointment or hurt all season. IT DOESN"T MATTER! He can't even acknowledge it. Think about what he said to Clare in the helicopter, yet still no regret? We know he is capable of this, so why would Nikki be immune from it? It's just a matter of time before he treats Nikki with the same disrespect. I would say he is a narcissist, but I think he is just really really dumb- "simple" as his mom said. It has nothing to do with the him not proposing or saying he loves her yet. For anyone, celebrating Nikki and paps, would you want your daughter with him? I bet Nikki's parents are mortified by it all.

  And I completely believe he said that to Clare.  

I believe he said that to Clare too. As far as JP and how he treats women, guess we have to wait to see what comes out in the wash. Think his colors will show sooner or later with Nikki too.

[Aunties_Love]

Nikki seems happy and that she understands him so I'm happy for her but I agree, I wonder what will happen the first time she's hurt or unhappy? I don't think our friend Pabs takes kindly to that type of behavior from his woman.

During the show, it's obvious he doesn't like to be called out (eg Andi, Clare). And on pre-season intvw he said Carla and him didn't work out bc she tends to talk back and argue with him (his own words). iMO until he resolves his own issues in this department, little to no chance he can develop any healthy, lasting relationship with anyone.

Yes, when he said that comment about glad he didn't pick Clare as she left. That was a reflection on his character and not one that is good for sure. Yea, there is more stuff coming out of how ticked he is that he didn't get the dancing/stars show and he blames NEXT entertainment for it and not his own words/actions. At least wetpaint and Cassandra has called him on it.

[Maggenzm]

I believe Juan Pablo behaved accordingly to the women he was with.
Clare was throwing herself at him, seemed an "easy girl" and he just took the opportunity that was offered. Just like so many other men, he used and threw away I guess. As for what exactly happened and was said, I don't know what exactly happened except for the edit and Clare's words. JP was not exactly a gentleman, but Clare was not really a lady neither. I don't really get why all the blame goes on JP only. In my opinion, the way a woman behaves with a man gets her to get a certain type of response from a guy. Usually the ones who choose to show an " easy to get" side will get a lack of respect from a guy.
On the other hand, Nikki was/is treated differently because JP sees her differently. I am sure in his mind she has higher standards and thus treats her with more consideration.
JMHO.

I said that before that if he chose Clare, it would mean he was just looking for a flingue. But, if he was serious about finding a wife which I though he was, then he would pick Nikki because of the way he treated her. We can debate all we want, only time will tell.

[Guest]

I think its rich from Sean to sprout the nonsense at the ATFR. He got a golden boy edit, they showed his love story and cute moments with Catherine, showed his parents as wonderful pple, even when he made his mum cry, they showed him walk with her to console her, made Ashlee the bad one when she said something Sean may of may not have said in the FS, gave him a nice montage video at the end, gave him dwts. JPG got the rude, unfeeling, callous, mean latin lothario edit. his parents weren't spared the bad edit, his mum made to sound like he only ever makes her cry in a mean way, didnt show his cute scenes with Nikki, showed her crying at the end and JPG walking away without a care, cut off his cute song to her, and then no video of their journey.
I love Sean and all....but he needs to shut his trap at this point.

[Guest]

I dont know about y'all but this was my best season of the Bachelor EVER!
Its realistic, flawed, honest and ended with two people who actually get each other.
Not saying everything JP did was right but isnt that waht being human is about? Its real, we all live in a world where we sometimes do wrong, say wrong and act wrong. We have been sold this fairytale ending for years and years and only got 3 lucky ones from a possible.....20/ 25 endings. Not everyone is expressive or quock to fall in love. Some take their time. It was Juan Pablos moment and he navigated it as best as he could. Remained open( unlike pasts who claimed to) and went with th girl best suited to him.
Chris Harrison isnt a god that cant be spoken back at, I am especially happy JP didnt pander to the production's crap.
Sean and catherine, bless them, have their asses owned for now. They surely cant afford to bite the hands that feeds them.

I wish JP and Nikki nothing but the best and as nikki said, time will tell. Cant see them doing any worse than the many in love couples that have graced our screens from the bachelor land.

I disagree. I have a cousin with aspergers that can listen and communicate better than pabs. CH told him all of us went on this journey with him and he responded with, "It doesn't matter." That is basically how he has responded to anyone's disappointment or hurt all season. IT DOESN"T MATTER! He can't even acknowledge it. Think about what he said to Clare in the helicopter, yet still no regret? We know he is capable of this, so why would Nikki be immune from it? It's just a matter of time before he treats Nikki with the same disrespect. I would say he is a narcissist, but I think he is just really really dumb- "simple" as his mom said. It has nothing to do with the him not proposing or saying he loves her yet. For anyone, celebrating Nikki and paps, would you want your daughter with him? I bet Nikki's parents are mortified by it all.

  And I completely believe he said that to Clare.  

I believe he said that to Clare too.  As far as JP and how he treats women, guess we have to wait to see what comes out in the wash.  Think his colors will show sooner or later with Nikki too.

I agree with all of this. We've talked alot about how tptb edits a season and how they can either idolize or vilify their lead. But maybe what they do is take the dominant characteristics that they witness from yards and yards of film and allow that to form the story of their lead.

[Guest]

Shame on Clare if he said that to her and she was still willing to continue on the journey with him. For her to still be all loved up and talk about a song on their wedding day speaks volumes about her. He treated the women with respect and kissed a few, he even had to be bamboozled into kissing Renee because she wouldn't let it go about him kissing her.
The women who are crying foul are the ones who wanted time with him, but he didn't budge and was not willing to act it out by being a sleaze and kissing all or making empty promises.
Clare played a victim during ocean-gate, if you were that offended you should have left!!!
Nothing he said could have chased Clare away, and maybe he did say "that" ( I doubt it though) so she could up and leave like Andi did. afterall he did not like hurting people byu saying goodbye. Clare pushed the physical and then cried wolf when she got it back from him.
NIkki and Charlene if she had stayed were always going to be his F2. They were the only 2 people he chased in the show.
And lets not forget how compassionate he was with the women, giving them all time to talk( as they all said), and sad when he hurt them. A man who can manage to have a fantastic relationship with the mother of his child that she is happy to be around his family is a good man in my books!

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